East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[D5645]

I like the idea of the East Midlands franchise in it's current form.

The franchise has performed well in my view given the level of resources available.

There is obviously an element of cross-subsidy from more lucrative London services across to the local operations but it also gives a more joined up feel to passengers when you are connecting between two East Midlands Trains services.

The Liverpool - Norwich service is problematic reliability wise so splitting it at Nottingham is sensible to make it more robust. No reason that both halves couldn't be operated by East Midlands Trains though.

 

[ChrisC]

The Liverpool - Norwich service is problematic reliability wise so splitting it at Nottingham is sensible to make it more robust. No reason that both halves couldn't be operated by East Midlands Trains though.

Has the Liverpool to Norwich service always been as unreliable and problematic as it currently is? Is it just my imagination or has it only become a problem quite recently during the last 5 years. Apart from overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester I always found it reasonably reliable when I used to use it quite regularly in the past. Has it been recent changes to timetables between Liverpool and Manchester and increased number of trains using the line between Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate that have caused the unreliability?

I’ve always been absolutely against splitting the service but I suppose if it has to be done Nottingham is probably the best place to split it. I do, however, feel sorry for passengers who regularly travel to or from stations like Sheffield, Chesterfield and Alfeton to East Anglia if they are to lose their through service. It won’t be much fun if there are delays and they arrive in Nottingham to see their connection just leaving with another hour to wait.

 

[DanTrain]

I’ve always been absolutely against splitting the service but I suppose if it has to be done Nottingham is probably the best place to split it. I do, however, feel sorry for passengers who regularly travel to or from stations like Sheffield, Chesterfield and Alfeton to East Anglia if they are to lose their through service. It won’t be much fun if there are delays and they arrive in Nottingham to see their connection just leaving with another hour to wait.

I agree, but surely the solution here would be to improve the (currently pretty dire) links from East Anglia to Yorkshire/North West. Manchester has trains to Birmingham, Leeds to Peterborough and Sheffield/Notts/Derby to Leicester, so arguably if XC (or EMT) were to run 2tph Birmingham to Norwich/Stanstead, this would work as a connection, and might be a bit more resilliant. Also, Sheffield to Leicester is an hour, and Leicester to Peterborough is an hour, so I don't see how a decent connection couldn't rival the 2h 10 currently available from Peterborough to Sheffield.

I don't know how this would work stock-wise, but creating a half-decent mainline from East Anglia to Birmingham via ECML, MML and WCML(TV) would be highly beneficial to the residents of East Anglia surely?

 

[twpsaesneg]

I'm a regular user of the Norwich to Liverpool trains for much of the journey for work and I'd hate to see it split. Whilst slightly slower than doing 2 changes (at Peterborough and Doncaster / Leeds) the fact I can have uninterrupted time to work is great.

The troublespot to me seems to be the Liverpool to Manchester corridor more than anything, though minor delays there then get magnified by the long block sections in the Hope Valley and between Peterborough and Ely.

My wish list would want to see this kept - however could a split operator not be considered with Northern operating between Liverpool and Nottingham and then EMT for the rest, with a shared pool of 158s? Didn't this arrangement get used for some of the Glasgow - Newcastle services via Kilmarnock or am I imagining it? This would have the benefit of allowing early starts from Liverpool without needing to ferry units and crew and possibly some resilience in being able to step up a unit from the Liverpool end as well.

With the Hope Valley resignalling I would hope that the long block sections would be abolished and similarly when Peterborough to Ely gets done.

If the link is lost then it simply won't be worth using the service any more since the connections from Leeds or Donny to Manchester are far more frequent than from Nottingham in the event of a delay to the inbound service.

 

[Kneedown]

Has the Liverpool to Norwich service always been as unreliable and problematic as it currently is? Is it just my imagination or has it only become a problem quite recently during the last 5 years. Apart from overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester I always found it reasonably reliable when I used to use it quite regularly in the past. Has it been recent changes to timetables between Liverpool and Manchester

In days gone by, delays were caused by severe overcrowding on the route and 2 car 158's. These days, most delays occur due to congestion from Slade Lane to Castlefield Jct, and catching up with slower trains along the Hope Valley.
I'm not sure if there are more services using the Manchester corridor, or if existing ones have been retimetabled, but unfortunately it's beyond EMT's control.

 

[yorksrob]

Has the Liverpool to Norwich service always been as unreliable and problematic as it currently is? Is it just my imagination or has it only become a problem quite recently during the last 5 years. Apart from overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester I always found it reasonably reliable when I used to use it quite regularly in the past. Has it been recent changes to timetables between Liverpool and Manchester and increased number of trains using the line between Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate that have caused the unreliability?

I’ve always been absolutely against splitting the service but I suppose if it has to be done Nottingham is probably the best place to split it. I do, however, feel sorry for passengers who regularly travel to or from stations like Sheffield, Chesterfield and Alfeton to East Anglia if they are to lose their through service. It won’t be much fun if there are delays and they arrive in Nottingham to see their connection just leaving with another hour to wait.

It's currently a darn site more reliable than everything else in the area.

 

[Killingworth]

The Liverpool-Nottingham route is a nightmare, very thoroughly discussed in the Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 thread. More trains are being pushed through the Manchester web of mutually congesting services, the TOCs all trying to fulfil franchise commitments.

If that scheme were complete, and also the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, things would work better, but then we'd be better able to see other lesser choke points that need attention.

The Hope Valley is to have signalling from Earles Sidings to all three Dore junctions upgraded as part of the HVCS and control moved to York. More work is probably needed on the track and signalling to the west. Slower 158s can go faster than faster 185s because they aren't limited by restrictions imposed by their weight.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The Liverpool-Nottingham route is a nightmare, very thoroughly discussed in the Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 thread. More trains are being pushed through the Manchester web of mutually congesting services, the TOCs all trying to fulfil franchise commitments.

If that scheme were complete, and also the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, things would work better, but then we'd be better able to see other lesser choke points that need attention.

The Hope Valley is to have signalling from Earles Sidings to all three Dore junctions upgraded as part of the HVCS and control moved to York. More work is probably needed on the track and signalling to the west. Slower 158s can go faster than faster 185s because they aren't limited by restrictions imposed by their weight.

They can go faster downhill at least, it always seems a bit of a slog from Hope to Cowburn Tunnel, especially if you get checked, and especially more so if you have a bad unit or two.

 

[Aictos]

My wish list would want to see this kept - however could a split operator not be considered with Northern operating between Liverpool and Nottingham and then EMT for the rest, with a shared pool of 158s? Didn't this arrangement get used for some of the Glasgow - Newcastle services via Kilmarnock or am I imagining it? This would have the benefit of allowing early starts from Liverpool without needing to ferry units and crew and possibly some resilience in being able to step up a unit from the Liverpool end as well.

This was done with the Class 350/1s when they were in a shared pool to be used by Central Trains and Silverlink County (They had a neutral livery as a result) as they could operate London Euston to Northampton as a Silverlink County service and a Central Trains service from Northampton to Birmingham New Street etc...

So I can't see why a shared pool can't work with both Northern and East Midlands Trains especially if it will make the service more reliable? Over to @Kneedown

 

[Kneedown]

So I can't see why a shared pool can't work with both Northern and East Midlands Trains especially if it will make the service more reliable? Over to @Kneedown

I really can't see how a shared pool of units would make the service more reliable though, when the the main cause of delay on the Liverpool side of the service is pathing between Slade Lane and Castlefield. You could have Northern units and/or crews, but they'd still be on the same tracks as the EMT ones, getting delayed by the same pathing issues.

 

[Meerkat]

“I really don't hold with the idea of absorbing local services into the local authorities. They will still end up being subsidised, but through peoples Council Taxes.”
I was thinking more of a devolved chunk of the transport national transport budget. Local authorities then decide on how to split it between road/rail/bus etc. The subsidy is clear and honest decisions can be made, rather than hiding basket cases because other poor sucker passengers can subsidise them.
“It really doesn't make a blind bit of difference what colour a train is painted (or vinyled!) and what depot the traincrew happen to come from, just as long as there is a service.”
It does matter who specifies the service, and that should be East Anglian authorities as the service’s main use is surely to connect East Anglia to the outside world. And that means it would be better within the Greater Anglia franchise (but under devolved control)

 

[Kneedown]

It does matter who specifies the service, and that should be East Anglian authorities as the service’s main use is surely to connect East Anglia to the outside world. And that means it would be better within the Greater Anglia franchise (but under devolved control)

It could be equally argued that the main objective of the service is to connect the East Midlands to Anglia.

 

[53703]

If Nottingham to Liverpool was given to another TOC, would it be worth having a Norwich to Crewe service via Nottingham, Derby, etc?

 

[Aictos]

I really can't see how a shared pool of units would make the service more reliable though, when the the main cause of delay on the Liverpool side of the service is pathing between Slade Lane and Castlefield. You could have Northern units and/or crews, but they'd still be on the same tracks as the EMT ones, getting delayed by the same pathing issues.

But would it not help reduce the amount of ECS moves at the start and end of the day by using Northern crews especially between Nottingham and Liverpool?

 

[Meerkat]

It could be equally argued that the main objective of the service is to connect the East Midlands to Anglia.

I disagree. I can’t imagine “The need for good connections to Norwich” ever comes up on Nottingham council’s agenda, but pretty sure Norfolk Council is rather concerned about having a decent connection to Peterborough, the ECML, and to a lesser extent the East Midlands (after the priorities of London and Cambridge/Stansted I would guess)

 

[Kneedown]

But would it not help reduce the amount of ECS moves at the start and end of the day by using Northern crews especially between Nottingham and Liverpool?

It would, but as has been explained, those ECS moves play a valuable role in keeping much diversionary route knowledge up to date.

 

[Kneedown]

I disagree. I can’t imagine “The need for good connections to Norwich” ever comes up on Nottingham council’s agenda, but pretty sure Norfolk Council is rather concerned about having a decent connection to Peterborough, the ECML, and to a lesser extent the East Midlands (after the priorities of London and Cambridge/Stansted I would guess)

While we're at it then, lets transfer Northerns Leeds service, and XC's Birmingham and Cardiff services over to EMT. I imagine Nottinghamshire Councils are far more concerned about good links to the north and our second city, than vice versea.

 

[Meerkat]

In your examples the services are equally as important to authorities at the other end so it is far more complicated.

 

[LowLevel]

I disagree. I can’t imagine “The need for good connections to Norwich” ever comes up on Nottingham council’s agenda, but pretty sure Norfolk Council is rather concerned about having a decent connection to Peterborough, the ECML, and to a lesser extent the East Midlands (after the priorities of London and Cambridge/Stansted I would guess)

What exactly stops them dealing with East Midlands Trains as they would Greater Anglia, in such a way that would justify the huge expense of training crews on 130 miles of route plus diversions to change the sticker on the side?

As long as the franchises are being specified by central government it makes little difference if the East Midlands or Anglian TOC runs the service and given the resources are in place to operate it efficiently regardless there's no benefit to changing it.

In actual fact until about 1993 Anglia local was part of the BR Regional Railways Central operating unit. Successive governments have buggered about with it to improve efficiency/reduce union strength depending on who you ask and taken to pieces the various operating efficiencies that were in place.

Liverpool to Norwich for example was always intended as a leisure route rather than a long distance Liverpool to Sheffield commuter route - that's why as an efficiency saving it was moved to be operated from Nottingham. It's purely by accident that EMT's first 2 services from Liverpool and a couple of corresponding trains back in the evening have become amongst the most important Liverpool/Manchester commuter trains loading well over 400 people on each.

 

[Meerkat]

How many crews would need training if Norwich TUPEd to GA, and wouldn’t GA drivers already know the route to Peterborough?
Sure Anglian councils could talk to EMR but EMR are always going to be more interested in East Midland authorities views as that is their main base.
From reading here and elsewhere the BR (budget induced) policy of running services based on operational convenience is one of the big problems the franchises inherited. Getting the services closer to the customers (public authorities for the subsidised sector) has to be a good thing.
I accept that it doesn’t make a great deal of difference until there is greater devolution of regional transport budgeting and planning, but that does seem to be he direction of travel at last.

 

[LowLevel]

No GA crews sign both Norwich to Ely and Ely to Peterborough as far as I know. EMT drivers usually do any stock transfers to Derby to use the Etches Park wheel lathe. There's a small number of crews who work the 2 hourly Ipswich to Peterborough who I believe are based at Ipswich and/or Colchester, not sure which.

 

[Tomnick]

The Liverpool - Norwich service is problematic reliability wise so splitting it at Nottingham is sensible to make it more robust. No reason that both halves couldn't be operated by East Midlands Trains though.

I'm not convinced that splitting it would actually offer many benefits. At present, there's a reasonable degree of certainty for through passengers but still with the option to restart the service right-time at Nottingham (with a fresh unit, and the crew that would've worked it forward anyway) if the inward is really down the pan - if that happens, it leaves the through passengers no worse off than they would be if the service was split (i.e. waiting for the next one from Nottingham) but removes the very real likelihood of them arriving only a few minutes late just in time to see the onward working disappearing under London Road.

I still don't understand the obsession with doing away with an ECS movement each way that's used to good effect in any case. If Northern or TPE ran the service to the current timings, they'd probably need two or three ECS (or taxi at best) moves each way between Sheffield and Nottingham for the early starts and late finishes.

 

[Killingworth]

Whilst at Dore & Totley this morning I was talking to a lady taking the 8.28 to Norwich, the only direct connection of the day. Why? Because it meant she didn't have to change trains. Unfortunately she's going to have to change on her way back at Sheffield, but wanted to avoid changing at London or Birmingham as well, apparently the quickest routes.

 

[Kneedown]

In your examples the services are equally as important to authorities at the other end so it is far more complicated.

I would suggest that the Norwich service is just as important to East Midlanders. There is a fair bit of business travel, leisure travel to Gt Yarmouth, Lowestoft and the Broads, not to mention connections to Stansted and Norwich Airports. Students travel to and from Universities, offshore workers travel to Norwich Airport to get to the North Sea gas platforms. The list goes on.
I'd be interested to know how Anglia would propose to run the first four morning services from Nottingham to Norwich?

 

[Meerkat]

EMR manage it the other way.....
I still think the majority of use will be for the benefit of Norfolk (business folk coming in to Norfolk would be a reason Norfolk would want the good service....)

 

[Tomnick]

What is there to specify? It’s a broadly hourly service, and any change to that isn’t going to be funded at local government level. I’m sure EMR will be perfectly capable of responding to the local authority’s wishes, as they would for any other stakeholder, on the finer details.

 

[rishtonlad]

I have used the service myself as well as my Uncle and there is always a large amount of reserved seats across Nottingham.

 

[ChrisC]

I'm not convinced that splitting it would actually offer many benefits. At present, there's a reasonable degree of certainty for through passengers but still with the option to restart the service right-time at Nottingham (with a fresh unit, and the crew that would've worked it forward anyway) if the inward is really down the pan - if that happens, it leaves the through passengers no worse off than they would be if the service was split (i.e. waiting for the next one from Nottingham) but removes the very real likelihood of them arriving only a few minutes late just in time to see the onward working disappearing under London Road.

Reliable connections at Nottingham could be a major concern of through passengers if the service is split. If current timings are retained it does not allow much time for late running between Liverpool and Nottingham. We all know that connections are not held these days and I am sure that passengers will arrive in Nottingham just in time to see their connection departing.

 

[D5645]

As an alternative solution could the service be split at Manchester Piccadilly instead ?

Most of the delays seem to be generated in passing through the congested two track corridor across Manchester. Starting the service from the terminus part of the station eliminates that and TPE can provide the section on to Liverpool.

This solution also removes the concern about missed connections at Nottingham meaning an hours wait.

 

[Skymonster]

It it was to be split, IMO the logical location would be Sheffield. EMT has very poor links from Nottingham to Sheffield through most of the day except for the Norwich-Liverpools, and both Sheffield and Nottingham are very much EMT stations. So if the Liverpool section was transferred to another TOC, I hope EMT would run Norwich-Sheffield and that other TOC would terminate at Sheffield (or work beyond like TPE does now).