East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[Aictos]

I dont see why EMR needs to have a separate website for its electric service? A dedicated platform at kings cross I understand but I don’t believe it’s necessary considering its only 1 service?

East Midlands Railways doesn’t use Kings Cross though, they DO use St Pancras International though.

 

[edwin_m]

It's looking like Abellio want to offer an enhanced weekend First Class service. One can only assume this means using their own staff to serve First and having an at seat service thoughout the train, so no more weekend buffet.

The buffet is unused except at weekends and takes up half a coach on the 8-coach HSTs. As most of these workings will be replaced by single 5-car units they need all the seating space they can get.

 

[yorksrob]

The buffet is unused except at weekends and takes up half a coach on the 8-coach HSTs. As most of these workings will be replaced by single 5-car units they need all the seating space they can get.

In terms of only five carriages, have the new trains been confirmed as only being five carriages long, or are we talking about the premature withdrawal of HST's beforehand ?

 

[bunnahabhain]

The buffet is unused except at weekends and takes up half a coach on the 8-coach HSTs. As most of these workings will be replaced by single 5-car units they need all the seating space they can get.

The buffet bar itself is used for storage of items for both Rail Gourmet, and the first class catering service. The kitchen areas sees a huge amount of use when used for breakfast trains as well.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Hopefully they can work on getting the TVM's at each station to actually work as well!

Found them to be very unreliable at stations that aren't staffed, which ironically is probably where they have their biggest value add. Not going to lie, as a member of Gen Z, I'm always happy to use things that let me reduce interactions with other people...

I'm a bit old for Bline now, but they should really add it to the TVMs, a lot of younger people get caught out not buying a ticket because that discount isn't available on the machines...

The discount for their ticket isn't available prior to boarding the train, so is perfectly valid for buying onboard. Where they do tend to get caught out is when they use their gateline pass for Derby issued through the adjacent college and then subsequently board a train without buying a ticket for travel.

 

[edwin_m]

In terms of only five carriages, have the new trains been confirmed as only being five carriages long, or are we talking about the premature withdrawal of HST's beforehand ?

Yes, five-car with some running in pairs, discussed in detail on a separate thread.

 

[edwin_m]

The buffet bar itself is used for storage of items for both Rail Gourmet, and the first class catering service. The kitchen areas sees a huge amount of use when used for breakfast trains as well.

With shorter units and probably a lower proportion of First, the demand on each kitchen will be much less and I'd expect to see a smaller one provided behind the cab in the First Class end as with the other Azumas. Similarly the trolley has less scope for sales on a shorter train but they can probably find space for some storage somewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, five-car with some running in pairs, discussed in detail on a separate thread.

That's not too bad then. Ten carriages versus eight at the moment seems like a step up.

 

[RealTrains07]

East Midlands Railways doesn’t use Kings Cross though, they DO use St Pancras International though.

Still doesn’t explain why they need 2 websites

 

[edwin_m]

That's not too bad then. Ten carriages versus eight at the moment seems like a step up.

However with the number ordered it's likely that many of the off-peak services that are 7-car Meridians and 8-car HSTs today will go down to a single 5-car. This is being discussed elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

However with the number ordered it's likely that many of the off-peak services that are 7-car Meridians and 8-car HSTs today will go down to a single 5-car. This is being discussed elsewhere.

One step forward, two steps back, as seems to be the case with the railway.

Anyhow, once the HST's have gone, I'll probably be using the MML a lot less, so it'll be someone elses problem.

 

[Jozhua]

The discount for their ticket isn't available prior to boarding the train, so is perfectly valid for buying onboard. Where they do tend to get caught out is when they use their gateline pass for Derby issued through the adjacent college and then subsequently board a train without buying a ticket for travel.

Ahh, yes! I have witnessed this before. Seems to be a bit of poor planning, having the station block foot traffic from the city centre to pride park, the only way round adding another 10 or so minutes to the walk...

Anyhow, once the HST's have gone, I'll probably be using the MML a lot less, so it'll be someone elses problem.

I see a lot of people saying things like this on the forum, which I find strange as someone who actually relies on trains to get around...

I don't choose to not ride on trains because I don't like the class or would prefer to ride something else, otherwise I'd never get anywhere.

Do you just drive a car anyway and choose to use the train for pleasure?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Still doesn’t explain why they need 2 websites

What are the websites?

 

[jon0844]

I do dislike the use of acronyms as brand names. Of course to 99% of railway enthusiasts know what GWR or LNER stand for but much of the general public will not. The brand is a great marketing tool to sell to the public where the company operates too.

The EMR lettering looks so out of place on Best Impressions brilliant livery.

The EMR logo on direction signs at St Pancras does look a little odd. But it's impressive they've changed all the signs so quickly when the same signs still have the old Thameslink logo!

 

[duffield]

Ahh, yes! I have witnessed this before. Seems to be a bit of poor planning, having the station block foot traffic from the city centre to pride park, the only way round adding another 10 or so minutes to the walk...



I see a lot of people saying things like this on the forum, which I find strange as someone who actually relies on trains to get around...

I don't choose to not ride on trains because I don't like the class or would prefer to ride something else, otherwise I'd never get anywhere.

Do you just drive a car anyway and choose to use the train for pleasure?

I'd guess they might think that more services will be overcrowded when reduced from 8 coach HST to 5 coach IET?

Even if this is off peak services and they still aren't full and standing, it might make the difference between being able to spread out a bit and being wedged in. I'll certainly look more seriously at the Grantham/Kings Cross alternative if the direct trains are too 'cosy'.

No, most people don't care about the class of trains, but I bet they do expect to have a bit more room if travelling off-peak.

 

[londonmidland]

I think people automatically think less coaches = less seats. But you've got to think how much extra capacity you'd get out of a 5 coach IET vs a 5 coach 222.

 

[duffield]

I think people automatically think less coaches = less seats. But you've got to think how much extra capacity you'd get out of a 5 coach IET vs a 5 coach 222.

I realise the 5 coach IETs have significantly more seats than 5 coach 222s, but I was comparing them with 8 coach HST's because a lot of posters on here seem to think that quite a lot of the current 8 coach HST diagrams will have to be worked by 5 coach IETs, not 5+5 IETs. Clearly we don't know yet how that's going to work out but it might mean much less room on some services.

 

[43055]

Where they do tend to get caught out is when they use their gateline pass for Derby issued through the adjacent college and then subsequently board a train without buying a ticket for travel.

Ahh, yes! I have witnessed this before. Seems to be a bit of poor planning, having the station block foot traffic from the city centre to pride park, the only way round adding another 10 or so minutes to the walk...

Admittedly I have done this once before but I did ask the conductor if I could buy a ticket on the train before I got on it otherwise I would I had to wait an hour for the next train. In the mornings you may not even get chance to get a ticket due to no faculties or the conductor doesn't get chance to/is unable to for some reason.

I understand that there will be new smart card style bridge passes being bought out for Derby which will allow you to cross the bridge as before but will have to use them as Entrance followed by Exit before they can be used on an Entrance gate again. That will hopefully solve some issues with the passes but wont solve the getting on a train issue.

 

[Kettledrum]

I realise the 5 coach IETs have significantly more seats than 5 coach 222s, but I was comparing them with 8 coach HST's because a lot of posters on here seem to think that quite a lot of the current 8 coach HST diagrams will have to be worked by 5 coach IETs, not 5+5 IETs. Clearly we don't know yet how that's going to work out but it might mean much less room on some services.

.....Abellio have done nothing to ease such fears. No indicative diagrams have been published indicating which services are likely to be 2x5 car units and which will be operated by a single 5 car unit only. Given the absence of this, people are fearing the worst.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The discount for their ticket isn't available prior to boarding the train, so is perfectly valid for buying onboard. Where they do tend to get caught out is when they use their gateline pass for Derby issued through the adjacent college and then subsequently board a train without buying a ticket for travel.

I just don't get why it's somehow difficult to have the TVM issue everything, like they do on SBB, NS, DB......

 

[swt_passenger]

.....Abellio have done nothing to ease such fears. No indicative diagrams have been published indicating which services are likely to be 2x5 car units and which will be operated by a single 5 car unit only. Given the absence of this, people are fearing the worst.

Would anyone realistically expect diagrams now when the trains won’t be in service for nigh on 3 years?

 

[edwin_m]

Would anyone realistically expect diagrams now when the trains won’t be in service for nigh on 3 years?

They must have done some indicative diagramming to work out how many units they needed, by matching stock diagrams with projected demand on each service. This would be submitted to DfT I think, but probably isn't going to be widely available for reasons of "commercial confidentiality".

 

[Kettledrum]

They must have done some indicative diagramming to work out how many units they needed, by matching stock diagrams with projected demand on each service. This would be submitted to DfT I think, but probably isn't going to be widely available for reasons of "commercial confidentiality".

Now that Abellio have won the franchise, it's hardly commercially confidential any more, so it's entirely up to them what they put in the public domain. There is a chorus of concern that the 5 car units that have been ordered are too few and abellio remain silent on which services they envisage will only be single units.

 

[ALEMASTER]

remember it will be a new timetable and new service pattern. We know on the mainline expresses to Nottingham/Sheffield it will be a mix of 5 and 10 car trains whilst the Corby electric semi-fasts (serving Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway) will be EMUs, doubled up at busy times.

 

[johnw]

Maybe 5 coach units are what is required for the non stop service from Leicester. You only have to watch them coming through Wellingborough station non stop - waiting for the stopping service a few minutes behind half full, whilst the stopping service is full.

Wellingborough being down graded to second hand EMUs on the slow line and stopping at both Luton’s is a disgrace. And no more northbound services unless you fancy a day trip to Corby.

Abelio need to reduce the ticket prices then from Wellingborough to non intercity prices.

 

[The Ham]

Now that Abellio have won the franchise, it's hardly commercially confidential any more, so it's entirely up to them what they put in the public domain. There is a chorus of concern that the 5 car units that have been ordered are too few and abellio remain silent on which services they envisage will only be single units.

It depends on the seating capacity of the 5 coach units, if they are 315 (slightly less than the GWR 802's, which have the lowest seating capacity of that fleet, which I've done as I'm aware that they will be shorter coaches than the 802's, as such this is 27 seats less than the TPE units fit in) then compared to the 468 of the HST's they can hold 67% of the passengers.

Yes that would be very snug if the HST's are full, but if the HST is 50% full then it's probably fine.

The problem is that people see 5 coach units and think that they are all the same, so 208 seats (like the 221's) or 240 seats (like the 222's) were they struggle to hold 50% of the seats of a HST.

 

[whhistle]

Still doesn’t explain why they need 2 websites

What two websites? Please link to them?

 

[hooverboy]

It depends on the seating capacity of the 5 coach units, if they are 315 (slightly less than the GWR 802's, which have the lowest seating capacity of that fleet, which I've done as I'm aware that they will be shorter coaches than the 802's, as such this is 27 seats less than the TPE units fit in) then compared to the 468 of the HST's they can hold 67% of the passengers.

Yes that would be very snug if the HST's are full, but if the HST is 50% full then it's probably fine.

The problem is that people see 5 coach units and think that they are all the same, so 208 seats (like the 221's) or 240 seats (like the 222's) were they struggle to hold 50% of the seats of a HST.

I think abellio are gambling on the 360's taking the bulk of the traffic-of which an 8 or 12 car set would have a considerable number more available seats than a 5 car 22x

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on the seating capacity of the 5 coach units, if they are 315 (slightly less than the GWR 802's, which have the lowest seating capacity of that fleet, which I've done as I'm aware that they will be shorter coaches than the 802's, as such this is 27 seats less than the TPE units fit in) then compared to the 468 of the HST's they can hold 67% of the passengers.

2m is near enough a bay width, so you're talking about 8 seats per coach fewer than a 26m unit.

 

[Kettledrum]

I think abellio are gambling on the 360's taking the bulk of the traffic-of which an 8 or 12 car set would have a considerable number more available seats than a 5 car 22x

This really doesn't help passengers who are "only" commuting between Leicester, Derby/Nottingham and Sheffield - of which there are significant numbers on some services.

It depends on the seating capacity of the 5 coach units, if they are 315 (slightly less than the GWR 802's, which have the lowest seating capacity of that fleet, which I've done as I'm aware that they will be shorter coaches than the 802's, as such this is 27 seats less than the TPE units fit in) then compared to the 468 of the HST's they can hold 67% of the passengers.

....so some of the services will operate with 1/3 less capacity which will particularly hit any passengers using the main line north of Kettering.