East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[700007]

I still don't understand this new 'Corby Express' service the DfT has been going on about. Just to clarify this is still a Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - Bedford - London service?

 

[InTheEastMids]

I still don't understand this new 'Corby Express' service the DfT has been going on about. Just to clarify this is still a Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - Bedford - London service?

Yes, 2 tph serving those stations plus Luton &/or Airport Parkway in up to 12 car formations, with informed posters suggesting this needs about 18 units. They are supposed to be 110mph services although OHL south of Bedford won't be up to it until 2023ish (look at KO1a in the MML pages for the Enhancement Delivery Plan). I also remember seeing woolly wording implying a high quality interior (i.e. nearer to 222s than 700s)
Considerable speculation on the rolling stock, the consensus here is that will be cascaded EMUs from elsewhere, with the favourite runners being
- ex Stansted Express 379
- ex LM 350/2
- ex GA / Heathrow Connect 360

 

[edwin_m]

The various press releases seem to suggest they've found a way of stopping both Nottingham to London services at Kettering, so this would suggest half hourly connections will be available from Wellingborough and stations South of there to Leicester/Nottingham, which is in some ways better than the service we have now (obviously how good the connections are will depend on the timings which are not publicly known at the moment).

Hope that's instead of the Market Harborough stop not as well as, with that stop being added to a Sheffield working. Nottingham already loses out on journey time with both Sheffield trains being non-stop to Leicester.

 

[Class 170101]

With regard to the first part of your question, we don't tell disabled people they're not allowed to travel in a particular part of the train now, so why would we start doing this at the end of the year ?

Technically we do by providing a wheelchair space in a given area of the train and a disabled toilet to go with it.

 

[Killingworth]

Connectivity is a concern, though. There would be a very good case for extending the wires to Leicester and making it 8 cars from St Pancras to Kettering then 4 to each of Leicester and Corby. At peak times run it as 12 and do a 4-8 split to the busier one of the two.

Extending wires to Leicester must be the high priority next step before Derby and Nottingham. Sheffield will have to come later after they decide what's happening with HS2 east.

 

[yorksrob]

Technically we do by providing a wheelchair space in a given area of the train and a disabled toilet to go with it.

We just make it clear where those particular facilities are located. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

 

[Helvellyn]

Stagecoach are taking legal action against the DfT over the pension issue - the franchise may no longer be a done deal, especially considering the extremely vague answers Andrew Jones was giving following the urgent question.

Source? Haven't seen anything on the likes of BBC News and I would have thought this would be announced to the Stock Exchange.

 

[Killingworth]

Source? Haven't seen anything on the likes of BBC News and I would have thought this would be announced to the Stock Exchange.

A has been said elsewhere, the evidence is a Daily Telegraph report that is behind a pay wall. You can see the headline here; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...s-legal-attack-chris-grayling-decision-block/

Stagecoach launches legal attack on Chris Grayling over decision to block train line bids

Dutch firm Abellio, which operates the Greater Anglia network ousted Stagecoach in the battle for the East Midlands franchise Credit: Bloomberg Finance/Chris Ratcliffe

• Oliver Gill

13 April 2019 • 8:00pm

Stagecoach has dramatically raised the stakes in its battle with Chris Grayling over his decision to derail its train operation, with a threat of court action against the embattled Transport Secretary.

The row over pension liabilities intensified this weekend as Stagecoach’s lawyers issued the Department for Transport with demands for information about its exclusion from bidding on train franchises.

The letter, extracts of which have been seen by The Sunday Telegraph, is understood to be a prelude to potential High Court action.

If not satisfied by the Government’s response, Stagecoach could call for a judicial review over the decision to strip it of the East Midlands train network and exclude...

then behind pay wall.

It's what any company in Stagecoach's position would do. The DfT must have expected it and should have prepared to deal with it. Whether they have or not we'll have to wait and see, but I wouldn't ink in the changeover date just yet.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Yes, 2 tph serving those stations plus Luton &/or Airport Parkway in up to 12 car formations, with informed posters suggesting this needs about 18 units. They are supposed to be 110mph services although OHL south of Bedford won't be up to it until 2023ish (look at KO1a in the MML pages for the Enhancement Delivery Plan). I also remember seeing woolly wording implying a high quality interior (i.e. nearer to 222s than 700s)
Considerable speculation on the rolling stock, the consensus here is that will be cascaded EMUs from elsewhere, with the favourite runners being
- ex Stansted Express 379
- ex LM 350/2
- ex GA / Heathrow Connect 360

My guess would be a Class 700 with Grammar seating instead of Fainsa.

 

[Agent_Squash]

My guess would be a Class 700 with Grammar seating instead of Fainsa.

The stock needs to be 110mph capable. IIRC Desiro City is only up to 100mph.

 

[StaffsWCML]

A has been said elsewhere, the evidence is a Daily Telegraph report that is behind a pay wall. You can see the headline here; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...s-legal-attack-chris-grayling-decision-block/

then behind pay wall.

It's what any company in Stagecoach's position would do. The DfT must have expected it and should have prepared to deal with it. Whether they have or not we'll have to wait and see, but I wouldn't ink in the changeover date just yet.

Good the governments handling of this is absolutely scandalous, their incompetence knows no bounds. I would be very surprised given their recent record if they win.

Having had the misfortune of travelling on London Northwestern and West Midlands Trains yesterday, I hope that Abellio do not also get this contract so they can completely screw the midlands.

 

[43074]

Hope that's instead of the Market Harborough stop not as well as, with that stop being added to a Sheffield working. Nottingham already loses out on journey time with both Sheffield trains being non-stop to Leicester.

If the performance of the new stock is comparable to a 222 then journey time reductions are possible regardless. Obviously exact timings and stopping patterns are not yet in the public domain, but 2tph from Kettering towards Leicester and Nottingham looks a promising start.

 

[Bletchleyite]

- ex GA / Heathrow Connect 360

I'd think unlikely to be the HConn units as these are 5-car sets.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is for discussing the new East Midlands franchise not rehashing ground covered previously in threads about the West Midland Railway franchise. Any further such posts are liable for deletion. Please also not that this also not a thread for discussing any pending legal action by Stagecoach. At least until we have an announcement making it clear that it will impact on the East Midlands franchise in reality not just theory.

 

[Roast Veg]

If the performance of the new stock is comparable to a 222 then journey time reductions are possible regardless. Obviously exact timings and stopping patterns are not yet in the public domain, but 2tph from Kettering towards Leicester and Nottingham looks a promising start.

I'm still concerned that a slowdown of the fast Nottingham's is inevitable. If there's a guarantee that HSTs won't be making that stop then I'd be more at ease with the prospect, but we've had work at Leicester south and Market Harborough specifically to reduce times on a mainline route that does not average the speeds of its counterparts on the ECML/WCML - it would be a shame to balance the work with mroe stops.

 

[700007]

I'd think unlikely to be the HConn units as these are 5-car sets.

The TfL Rail 360s are also probably the most broken units out of the lot due to Heathrow Airport refusing to fork out beyond the absolute bare minimum to maintain the trains all these years. It is a struggle to see 3 in service out of 5.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TfL Rail 360s are also probably the most broken units out of the lot due to Heathrow Airport refusing to fork out beyond the absolute bare minimum to maintain the trains all these years. It is a struggle to see 3 in service out of 5.

That's quite something given that the 350s, which are basically identical bar the gangways, never seem to cease to win awards for high reliability.

 

[hwl]

That's quite something given that the 350s, which are basically identical bar the gangways, never seem to cease to win awards for high reliability.

A bit more gets spent on 350 maintenance though, you get what you pay for!

 

[thenorthern]

Finally the East Midlands gets some investment in its railways, compared to most operators services are only slightly improved since the days of British Rail and currently all of the trains except the Class 222 were built in the days of British Rail.

Given that the Crewe - Derby services are being extended to Nottingham I wonder if they will be combined with the Derby to Norwich services or something similar.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Given that the Crewe - Derby services are being extended to Nottingham I wonder if they will be combined with the Derby to Norwich services or something similar.

The ITT specifically asked for proposals for a truncated Norwich - Nottingham service and for improving east-west connectivity; these have been addressed by declaring that the Norwich - Nottingham service will be extended to Derby, and the Crewe - Derby service to Nottingham.

However, bidders had to put forward proposals for speeding-up the Crewe - Derby line, and for improving cross-Nottingham connections; the former hasn't been adressed at all, and the services declared are worse than now as the Matlock - Newark and Leicester - Lincoln services are not shown as operating east of Nottingham.

So I think it is very likely that the Crewe - Derby service (and the Matlock - Nottingham one) will be extended east of Nottingham, but I think amalgamation with the Nottingham - Norwich service is unlikely as I'm sure I've seen somewhere that there will be five services each hour between Derby and Nottingham (3xEMR and 2xXC). Amalgamation with the Nottingham - Grimsby/Cleethorpes would restore a former direct service; shame there aren't any class 120s left to operate it!

 

[DDB]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that there will be five services each hour between Derby and Nottingham (3xEMR and 2xXC).

Has anyone seen definite confirmation of five separate Derby to Nottingham services? I am a comuter on that line so it will be great for me but I'm trying not to get excited until it is confirmed that none of the three EMT routes are being combined with each other. If it is true the level crossing barriers on the route are going to spend a large proportion of their time in the down postion.

 

[whhistle]

I presume Wellingborough will get a fare reduction when it’s down graded from Intercity to hand me down ‘express’ EMUs

Why would you presume that?
Apart from flash sales, I can't think of much in this life that goes down in price.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Has anyone seen definite confirmation of five separate Derby to Nottingham services? I am a comuter on that line so it will be great for me but I'm trying not to get excited until it is confirmed that none of the three EMT routes are being combined with each other. If it is true the level crossing barriers on the route are going to spend a large proportion of their time in the down postion.

I thought I had seen it somewhere, but I haven't found it with a quick look this morning.

However, if XC services stay as now, there will be at least four services between these two cities in each hour, as it has been declared that the Crewe - Derby service will be extended eastwards to Nottingham, and it has also been declared that the Matlock - Newark will continue run at least as far east as Nottingham; so - and presuming that the Crewe and Matlock don't join/split at Derby! - simple maths suggest that there will be at least four.

Regarding the Norwich - Nottingham service, the ITT asked bidders to put forward proposals for this service, and the information published thus far implies it will just be extended westwards to Derby, with no suggestions of it going further to the west (or north to Chesterfield/Sheffield); it's possible, therefore, that the conclusion that there will be three EMR services each hour between Derby and Nottingham has just been assumed by adding together these three declarations, and that the final outcome will in fact show some amalgamations.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a heads up on what to discuss where to avoid duplication and confusion.

• Liverpool - Norwich being split at Nottingham has a dedicated thread located here.
• New or "new" rolling stock has a dedicated thread which can be located here.

Anyone wishing to discuss those specifics in relation to the new franchise should do so on those linked threads. This thread is then left to sweep up any odds and ends that occur between now and the franchise start date. Any posts that should be in the above two threads but are posted here are liable for deletion.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[tbtc]

Finally the East Midlands gets some investment in its railways, compared to most operators services are only slightly improved since the days of British Rail and currently all of the trains except the Class 222 were built in the days of British Rail

In fairness, the East Midlands has a lot of new trains - the 170s, 180, 220s, 221s, 222s (and is due to get 195s when Northern introduce their Bradford service)...

(if you count the traditional boundaries of Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire as still being in the East Midlands then there are 185s and 350s and whatever class number the 350 replacement gets too)

...it's just that most of this investment has fallen outside of the current East Midlands Trains services - much like complaints about northern England not getting investment =/= "Northern" not getting investment.

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that there will be five services each hour between Derby and Nottingham (3xEMR and 2xXC)/QUOTE]

That's a large and welcome boost.

Whilst people on here argue the toss about the service between places hundred(s of) miles apart (be that Liverpool to Norwich or Manchester Airport to Newcastle or Blackpool to London or Holyhead to Cardiff...), we neglect situations like two decent sized conurbations linked by only three short DMUs per hour (with gaps of half an hour).

There's an express coach every ten minutes, so there's clear demand, but the railway service from Nottingham to Derby has been terrible for too long - this is one overdue improvement from the new franchise that is most welcome (most of the other service changes are relatively uninspiring - however much people want to believe in untapped demand - but Derby to Nottingham deserves a proper "turn up and go" railway.

 

[DanTrain]

In fairness, the East Midlands has a lot of new trains - the 170s, 180, 220s, 221s, 222s (and is due to get 195s when Northern introduce their Bradford service)...

(if you count the traditional boundaries of Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire as still being in the East Midlands then there are 185s and 350s and whatever class number the 350 replacement gets too)

...it's just that most of this investment has fallen outside of the current East Midlands Trains services - much like complaints about northern England not getting investment =/= "Northern" not getting investment.

The oldest 170s are now 20 years old, the 220, 221 and 180s are fast approaching that mark and the 222s are 15 now. I wouldn't call any of those 'new'. The 195s are only running Nottingham to Dronfield in the EM region, and even if you consider the new 800/801s on the ECML, it's hardly revolutionary is it? I don't actually think there's a problem with any of these trains (well, 180s excepted!), really it's the 153/6 that really needs replacing, but alas that doesn't look likely till the 2030s .

 

[K13R0N]

The oldest 170s are now 20 years old, the 220, 221 and 180s are fast approaching that mark and the 222s are 15 now. I wouldn't call any of those 'new'. The 195s are only running Nottingham to Dronfield in the EM region, and even if you consider the new 800/801s on the ECML, it's hardly revolutionary is it? I don't actually think there's a problem with any of these trains (well, 180s excepted!), really it's the 153/6 that really needs replacing, but alas that doesn't look likely till the 2030s .

If Lincolnshire's being included in the EM region, the Leeds - Lincoln Northern service is supposedly being ran by 195s too when they're in service

 

[DanTrain]

If Lincolnshire's being included in the EM region, the Leeds - Lincoln Northern service is supposedly being ran by 195s too when they're in service

Oh true forgot about that, I guess that adds three or four more stations. Still hardly revolutionary!

PS: Welcome to the forum

 

[londonmidland]

Given the rubbish state of trains EMT received from (Northern?) and got the 'bad' side of the deal as the 170's went to Cross Country, they haven't done too bad with what they were handed with.

Though I agree users of EMT regional and local services deserve better than what is currently on offer. The 153's definitely need to go and I don't think there's much that can be done to the 156's either. The 158's, they have an uncertain future on the EM network.

 

[Class 170101]

Isn't rhere an issue over the number of services between Nottingham and Derby and resultant congestion?

I would say there is a high chance of some of these services merging maybe Crewe to Nottingham with Nottingham to Norwich, Skegness or Grimsby as there won't be enough capacity between Nottingham and Trent and between Derby and Trent due to the Intercity services joining the east / west route at Trent Jns. What it could also preclude is future services from HS2 at Toton as either direct services from London or connecting classic services operating via Toton.