East Midlands Trains HST

[43096]

It could work, but VP185's need to come out and be replaced with new MTU engines most probably and cost of plug doors DFT would say no as they are DAFT.

Why do the VP185s need replacing?

They are actually a better engine than the MTU: lower fuel consumption, lower oil consumption and go longer between overhauls.

 

[43096]

I suppose EMT could nick some GWR Coach C's which already have the PRM compliant look.

But the disabled toilet on the GWR stock is at the wrong end - it cannot be converted with a CET discharge tank. That's why the GWR and ScotRail conversions are not using these vehicles.

 

[hexagon789]

But the disabled toilet on the GWR stock is at the wrong end - it cannot be converted with a CET discharge tank. That's why the GWR and ScotRail conversions are not using these vehicles.

What about the First Class trailers EMT has with an accessible toilet, is it at the wrong end there too? If not, couldn't you re-seat them to Standard and re-seat some Standards to Firsts?

 

[nat67]

Why do the VP185s need replacing?

They are actually a better engine than the MTU: lower fuel consumption, lower oil consumption and go longer between overhauls.

I know they are better as they sound hellfire. But they might say that they would need to be changed in order to run after 2020. I would rather they stay with VP185 true.

 

[nat67]

No, the VP185s don't need replacing, it's the plug doors & other PRM bits that are the problem.
I suppose EMT could nick some GWR Coach C's which already have the PRM compliant loo.

some of the ones that are going to Ely if there is some.

 

[hexagon789]

Why do the VP185s need replacing?

They are actually a better engine than the MTU: lower fuel consumption, lower oil consumption and go longer between overhauls.

They sound much better and I believe are 7% more fuel efficient.

 

[43096]

I know they are better as they sound hellfire.

Obviously my point was completely wasted on you.

 

[cactustwirly]

I know they are better as they sound hellfire. But they might say that they would need to be changed in order to run after 2020. I would rather they stay with VP185 true.

The engines have nothing to do with with 2020 compliace

 

[nat67]

The engines have nothing to do with with 2020 compliace

So nothing to do with the amount of clag they produce, I suppose it would cost a lot anyway and DAFT would say no.

 

[43096]

What about the First Class trailers EMT has with an accessible toilet, is it at the wrong end there too? If not, couldn't you re-seat them to Standard and re-seat some Standards to Firsts?

Don't know to be honest! Having had a look under 12134 a few weeks ago, I can see why there is an issue: at one end are the air tanks and brake control equipment, at the other end is an empty space.

 

[cactustwirly]

So nothing to do with the amount of clag they produce, I suppose it would cost a lot anyway and DAFT would say no.

No, 2020 compliance is about accessibility for the disabled.

In terms of emissions I expect the MTU engines to be just as bad, if not worse because of the bigger engine.

 

[nat67]

I forgot which compliance it was to do with. I have seen some MTU engines that have had problems but VTEC has put brand new engines across the whole fleet. But I know what you mean about the emissions of the MTU's. Are you back from Uni.

 

[hexagon789]

Don't know to be honest! Having had a look under 12134 a few weeks ago, I can see why there is an issue: at one end are the air tanks and brake control equipment, at the other end is an empty space.

It just seemed like that might be an easier solution seeing as the seats in a Mk3 can be swapped fairly easily.

 

[43096]

No, 2020 compliance is about accessibility for the disabled.

In terms of emissions I expect the MTU engines to be just as bad, if not worse because of the bigger engine.

You cannot now get new 16V4000 R41 engines (as fitted to HST power cars) from MTU as they do not meet the Stage 3b emissions standard.

The VP185 has made something of a comeback as it is back in MAN Diesel's product range (it was available before, but only by request) and is being actively promoted. I believe the VP185 can be made Stage 3b compliant by fitting electronic fuel injection and other mods - it may actually be possible to upgrade existing engines.

 

[43096]

I forgot which compliance it was to do with. I have seen some MTU engines that have had problems but VTEC has put brand new engines across the whole fleet. But I know what you mean about the emissions of the MTU's. Are you back from Uni.

VTEC have not put brand new engines in. They are the existing engines that have been through QL4 overhaul (full strip-down and rebuild) and been repainted red.

 

[Domh245]

No, 2020 compliance is about accessibility for the disabled.

In terms of emissions I expect the MTU engines to be just as bad, if not worse because of the bigger engine.

The bigger displacement may have been offset by the difference in years between them, particularly with particulate emissions. But as you say, the engine is near enough completely irrelevant to post 2020 operations. After all they're only needed to limp on until the bi-modes are delivered

 

[nat67]

VTEC have not put brand new engines in. They are the existing engines that have been through QL4 overhaul (full strip-down and rebuild) and been repainted red.

Oh that makes sense, do they do that to the GWR power cars as well at Laira.

 

[43096]

Oh that makes sense, do they do that to the GWR power cars as well at Laira.

The engine overhauls are done by MTU. For the QL3 level overhaul they go to East Grinstead, but for the QL4 they go over to Magdeburg in Germany. Engine changes (i.e. the physical lift in/out of the power car) are generally done at Laira (for GWR), Craigentinny (VTEC, XC and NMT) and Neville Hill (EMT - VP185s go back to MAN at Colchester for overhaul), though Neville Hill have also done some MTU changes for VTEC.

 

[nat67]

Cheers, it may seem that I don't no nothing about one of my favourite locos, its just knowledge.

 

[cactustwirly]

Oh that makes sense, do they do that to the GWR power cars as well at Laira.

Yes, engine overhauls are done at set mileage intervals, this is for all diesel stock, not just HSTs.

 

[43096]

Yes, engine overhauls are done at set mileage intervals, this is for all diesel stock, not just HSTs.

Engine overhauls are done on the basis of hours not mileage, at least for the HST fleet.

VP185s get a full strip down and rebuild after about 27,000 "TOPS" hours, with half-life overhaul at the mid-point.
MTU overhauls are based on engine hours on the MDEC (MTU Diesel Engine Control) system. The MDEC will clock up hours even if it is sat idling on depot, unlike the VP (TOPS hours are based on hours in traffic) - this is one reason why the VP goes longer between overhauls. There is also a "cold start" penalty applied on the MDEC that adds (I think) 100hrs if the engine is not sufficiently warm before starting.

 

[Roast Veg]

Out of curiosity 43096, what is the business case for the MTU engines over the VP185s? Is their reliability significantly better?

 

[hexagon789]

Out of curiosity 43096, what is the business case for the MTU engines over the VP185s? Is their reliability significantly better?

I think they are supposed to be more environmentally friendly.

 

[43096]

Out of curiosity 43096, what is the business case for the MTU engines over the VP185s? Is their reliability significantly better?

There isn’t a business case for MTU over VP185.

The reason FGW went for MTU was the historical problems they had had with the VP185, which was almost entirely down to poor support from Alstom (who owned Paxman at the time). The situation now under MAN ownership is very different.

 

[43096]

I think they are supposed to be more environmentally friendly.

Wrong.

 

[hexagon789]

Wrong.

Fair enough, what then? Surely there is some reason?

 

[43096]

Fair enough, what then? Surely there is some reason?

See my postings above!

 

[VestibuleRider]

I suspect some people itt are confusing the Paxman VP185 with the Paxman Valenta (the engine originally installed in the HST). The VP185s replaced the Valentas in some of the power cars, it's a direct successor to the Valenta. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxman_Valenta

Incidentally, until I read that wiki article I had no idea the Valenta was used as a submarine engine - you learn something new every day!

 

[hexagon789]

See my postings above!

Maintenance issues put FGW off them?

 

[hexagon789]

I suspect some people itt are confusing the Paxman VP185 with the Paxman Valenta (the engine originally installed in the HST). The VP185s replaced the Valentas in some of the power cars, it's a direct successor to the Valenta. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxman_Valenta

Incidentally, until I read that wiki article I had no idea the Valenta was used as a submarine engine - you learn something new every day!

No, I do appreciate the difference. Power output and sound among other things.