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East Midlands Trains to close buffet cars

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tbtc

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On board catering will always be needed

Agreed, there will always be some demand, but not necessarily enough to justify a whole coach/ half a coach dedicated to it.

Before privatisation there were few places to grab a snack on the go. Now we have Greggs/McDonalds/ Subway/ Pret A Manger etc (as well as lots of places selling pre-packed items) and there's less demand to purchase food on the train...

...which means the "profit" will have to be made from fewer on-train sales, which means higher prices, which means lower demand, which means...

Vicious circle.
 
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Levelling the VAT playing field will help but when you look at the Mk3 and Mk4 coaches a lot of space is taken up by the kitchen. For me the ideal would be along virgins lines in terms of space. Maybe just the buffet area without the kitchens taking about 1/4 coach for most TOCs such as Mml. Trolleys don't work as we have covered at great length. But pret etc charge about the same as on the train once VAT is done. Maybe franchise the buffet area to other companies like pret.
 

Max

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I'm pretty sure you can't just rip the kitchen out of a mk3 buffet, I'm sure I've heard it mentioned that this would compromise the structure of the carriage. Isn't this why there are many mk3 buffets lying around, when the extra capacity is desperately needed? It simply isn't cost-effective to convert them.
 

Failed Unit

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Max yes you are correct. What I was meaning is when the mk5 comes around it may be all the need is a class 442 style buffet to keep everyone happy. May even work for MML and norwich - Liverpool when the go EMU :)
 

TomJ93

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I'd like to see a move to more Intercity TOCs offering resturant services to standard class passengers.
 

Failed Unit

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I don't think this will happen. Under GNER I used to buy the meals in standard as it was a cheap first class ticket (between London and Newark) It is a good way to get extra covers but if it is unprofitable anyway the aim is to get more people into first which us why east coast have gone to inclusive food. The seat is probably worth more as an extra first class seat which can be sold twice (York - peterborough and Peterborough - London) than it is to whatever little profit is made for the meal. With restaurant service they are only occupied for short runs taking a very small revenue.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I'd like to see a move to more Intercity TOCs offering resturant services to standard class passengers.
Interesting that you should say that mate, Barry Doe was discussing this in the current RAIL, how back at the end of BR, there were 200+ restaurant trains for all ticket holders, and that it is now down to nine I think (only ones where any ticket could be used were counted, though this may include WSMR, I honestly don't know, I'll check).

It is a sad decline really, what we could really do is having an enhanced service level on special trains: the Liverpool, Manchester, Wolves/New St and Intl/Coventry headliner trains could all have enhanced Breakfasts services, free in First, and for a charge in Standard, ditto with the 1630 Euston-Glasgow (the one which calls at Preston only), and the new Edinburgh-King's Cross (calling only at Newcastle), which could over a fine-dining service, once again, maybe with the Buffet Coach let out for Standard diners to enjoy. This could even be done on the fast morning Norwich-Liverpool St trains, and a select set of FGW services, maybe on the XC HSTs too.

Sadly, I think this will never come to fruition, FGW and WSMR will be the final two in a great service, but I feel it is only a matter of time before we lose them forever :(
 

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East coast have 6 each northbound I can think of. 1630 1700 1730 1800 1830 and 1900 ex kings cross. I am sure a couple of the Leeds services have resturants as well so Mr Doe seems a bit low with his number. East coast are open to all (once first have seated). I know come May it will be first only but to be honest I don't think people will care that much. It will be sad it's gone.
 

MidnightFlyer

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East coast have 6 each northbound I can think of. 1630 1700 1730 1800 1830 and 1900 ex kings cross. I am sure a couple of the Leeds services have resturants as well so Mr Doe seems a bit low with his number. East coast are open to all (once first have seated). I know come May it will be first only but to be honest I don't think people will care that much. It will be sad it's gone.

I thought they were scrapping the actual restaurants?
 

Max

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I thought they were scrapping the actual restaurants?

If you mean the cars, definitely not. The kitchen facilities are going to be used to produce the 'restaurant-style' food that will be served to passengers at-seat. The word is that the quality will be similar to that in the restaurant, but will be complimentary.
 

MidnightFlyer

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If you mean the cars, definitely not. The kitchen facilities are going to be used to produce the 'restaurant-style' food that will be served to passengers at-seat. The word is that the quality will be similar to that in the restaurant, but will be complimentary.

to be fair, I've just being talking about the actual sit-down restaunrant style facilities (like you still see on the Cally Sleeper), alongside the ones open to Standard Class passengers (like the actual proper table style :D)
 

EltonRoad

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It is a sad decline really, what we could really do is having an enhanced service level on special trains: ... This could even be done on the fast morning Norwich-Liverpool St trains

In fact a breakfast trial is being offered on the 0710 and 0740 from Norwich at the moment. It's not free though. See here.
 

TomJ93

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Hang on if 'm travelling WSMR I can ask to buy the food they serve in 1st?
 

Mojo

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to be fair, I've just being talking about the actual sit-down restaunrant style facilities (like you still see on the Cally Sleeper), alongside the ones open to Standard Class passengers (like the actual proper table style :D)
I wouldn't describe the Caledonian Sleeper as providing a restaurant service as such[1]; it's all microwaved food. In terms of restaurant service I would consider the need for there to be an on-board chef and an at-seat service in one carriage.

[1] although to be fair, in the summer I had a two-course meal on the sleeper - tomato soup with bread roll and burger with salad, but it was still microwaved and not freshly prepared, but at least came on proper crockery with metal cutlery.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I wouldn't describe the Caledonian Sleeper as providing a restaurant service as such[1]; it's all microwaved food. In terms of restaurant service I would consider the need for there to be an on-board chef and an at-seat service in one carriage.

[1] although to be fair, in the summer I had a two-course meal on the sleeper - tomato soup with bread roll and burger with salad, but it was still microwaved and not freshly prepared, but at least came on proper crockery with metal cutlery.

I meant the tables, cutlery etc, not served in plastic cups with plastic knifes and forks, and sat around tables, with drawable curtains etc, not bog-standard seating. Sorry if I did not make this clear in my post.
 

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Hang on if 'm travelling WSMR I can ask to buy the food they serve in 1st?

Can't comment on WSRC but you can on east coast at seat dinning services. You need to take it back to your seat but still offers good food if you want to pay £10 for a good quality burger. You can buy a lot at burger king for that ;). This is cooked in the kitchen. Don't think this will continue after May either if you want breakfast you will need to be in first I suspect.
 

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This is not the first occasion something like this has been done. Crosscountry used to have "shop" facilities onboard. As part of refranchising, Arriva proposed to serve customers "at seat". To back this up they carried out a survey beforehand asking the Question: "Would you like to be served at seat?" The answer gave a majority saying yes. Most people that I have spoken to since the Shops have been removed and a trolley service instigated, have found that a trolley cannot replace a shop. Hot food no longer exists in Standard Class. There is no Catering service West of Plymouth or North of Edinburgh.Some trains after 8pm have no catering either....for 1st AND Standard class customers.

When the trains are full, most usually with luggage, the trolley cannot make it through the train. So you stil;l have to get to the end of the train for refreshments.

Part of the Arguement was to remove the shop and replace it with luggage space. This is underused. After all would you leave your luggage severa coaches away?

First Great Western also tried to do away with their Buffets and have a trolley service instead. However, concerted attempts by the company were thwarted by Staff and their union. The RMT. This resulted in "mini" buffets being installed in 2+7 HST sets where the buffet Cars had been removed.

Catering is seen as an area where Rail Companies can in effect make cuts to services. An accountant sees the hire cost of a Buffet coach, compared to the number of passengers carried on HST coaches generally,typically less than 20 in a coach as opposed to 80 in a full standard coach, as not cost effective. On trains withouth buffet coaches, such as class 220, 221,222 etc, the space taken by the shop would achieve higher revenue as seats!!

I would urge any members of train crew, ( In Great Western's case the Train managers supported the Catering staff), and travellers to actively oppose these cuts. Get a petition up and contact all MP's who may use your services to put pressure on EMT.

Otherwise there may be a threat to hot food(how do you heat a Panini or burger on a trolley?), and service generally. You may be served at seat but only when the staff can get to you and only when the trolley is in the coach, not necessarily when you want it. In larger trains where there are 8 coaches how often will a member of staff pass through your coach, and how long will the limited amount of hot water last? It may run out before you are seen.

In my opinion, a trolley service is inferior to a Buffet on many levels.
 

185

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It is simply disgusting that Stagecoach PLC slated National Express coach division in 2000 for getting rid of the on board food service on coaches.

Here we are ten years later with a bunch of fools working for Souter trying to do the same. They are trying to turn a proper intercity run into a bad regional railways outfit.
 

Failed Unit

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It is simply disgusting that Stagecoach PLC slated National Express coach division in 2000 for getting rid of the on board food service on coaches.

Here we are ten years later with a bunch of fools working for Souter trying to do the same. They are trying to turn a proper intercity run into a bad regional railways outfit.

Maybe they are just following instructions? National express took a lot of flak at central trains for implementing unpopular DFT policies. Perhaps that is how the got East Coast as a reward for compling.
 

185

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If they're following DfT policy, does that include outsourcing the catering to RailGourmet to minimise their overheads and increase their profits? There was a day when catering used to pay for itself several times over but only if it was good quality. GNER made a substantial profit from catering in the early days. I oversaw the transfer of contract and tupe of 60 staff to RailGourmet at another operator but for all the right reasons, the previous outfit was committing fraud and 'renting the uniforms' to staff etc.
 

TomJ93

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I think the IC TOC's would make an absolute killing if they sold a full english on board in the morning! Mmm the thought of a full english and a cuppa whilst going down the WCML is quite appetising.

It makes me laugh how I was going to Northampton once in the 90s on a 321 and I got served by a buffet trolley!
 

dk1

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It makes me laugh how I was going to Northampton once in the 90s on a 321 and I got served by a buffet trolley!

At-seat trolley catering was also once common place on ex-NSE Thameslink, Great Eastern & Great Northern routes.
 

Mojo

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If they're following DfT policy, does that include outsourcing the catering to RailGourmet to minimise their overheads and increase their profits? There was a day when catering used to pay for itself several times over but only if it was good quality. GNER made a substantial profit from catering in the early days. I oversaw the transfer of contract and tupe of 60 staff to RailGourmet at another operator but for all the right reasons, the previous outfit was committing fraud and 'renting the uniforms' to staff etc.
Whilst CrossCountry have always employed their own on-train catering staff on Voyager/HST routes it's interesting that last year CrossCountry dropped Rail Gourmet from managing their service centres and delivery of items to trains and moved it all in-house (except on the Turbostar routes). It would be interesting to see the reasoning behind this; I wonder if it means they get better quality service or if it's just about the cost? I know also that some of their station staff at Edinburgh do both train dispatch AND work in the service centre for the on-board catering so there could be a cost saving by merging roles, but on the other hand I'm sure Rail Gourmet must have their own service centres for their contracts with other Tocs.
 

tbtc

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There is no Catering service West of Plymouth or North of Edinburgh.Some trains after 8pm have no catering either....for 1st AND Standard class customers

Let's face it - when buffets were on trains, they certainly weren't open all the time (either understaffed, or closed down for long periods for "stock taking" - even in this day of electronic scanning)
 

jon0844

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I think the IC TOC's would make an absolute killing if they sold a full english on board in the morning! Mmm the thought of a full english and a cuppa whilst going down the WCML is quite appetising.

I don't know about making a killing, but on any off-peak services where there are lots of tourists, offering a limited selection of meals such as this could certainly generate a lot of sales I'd have thought.

In fact, enterprising TOCs could even consider selling meal vouchers in advance. For advance bookings, booking a meal in advance would even give the operator an idea of demand in advance too.

For commuters, season ticket holders could get a discount on food and may well (if their journey is long enough) opt to have a proper breakfast on the way to work. I certainly don't have time to have a proper breakfast and will either grab something at the station or wait until I've arrived at work and pop into Sainsbury's. Not that my train has a buffet or trolley, which I don't understand given many FCC services aren't that packed in the morning and if it was outsourced, FCC would get revenue no matter what.

I wonder how the NXEA trial will do with offering good breakfast options. On the way home in the evening, it's probably harder to gauge demand as many people will have eaten during the day or plan to eat when they get home.
 

MidnightFlyer

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If I recall correctly, under Virgin rule, the Shop was only open between New St and Bournemouth/Brighton/Plymouth/Edinburgh (via both WC and EC)/Manchester, it was never opened beyond Edinburgh on services, but Glasgow was served by the Shop on services via Preston. There was also nothing between Preston and Manchester, and, henvce the above, nothing to penzance/Aberdeen. It was also open only between 0500-2000 only.
 

tbtc

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enterprising TOCs could even consider selling meal vouchers in advance. For advance bookings, booking a meal in advance would even give the operator an idea of demand in advance too.

East Coast do the "buy a £5 voucher for £4" when ordering tickets. I think that's a good idea to encourage people to use the buffet
 

TomJ93

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I don't know about making a killing, but on any off-peak services where there are lots of tourists, offering a limited selection of meals such as this could certainly generate a lot of sales I'd have thought.

In fact, enterprising TOCs could even consider selling meal vouchers in advance. For advance bookings, booking a meal in advance would even give the operator an idea of demand in advance too.

For commuters, season ticket holders could get a discount on food and may well (if their journey is long enough) opt to have a proper breakfast on the way to work. I certainly don't have time to have a proper breakfast and will either grab something at the station or wait until I've arrived at work and pop into Sainsbury's. Not that my train has a buffet or trolley, which I don't understand given many FCC services aren't that packed in the morning and if it was outsourced, FCC would get revenue no matter what.

I wonder how the NXEA trial will do with offering good breakfast options. On the way home in the evening, it's probably harder to gauge demand as many people will have eaten during the day or plan to eat when they get home.

A good fry up would be hard to resist for many passengers ;)
 
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