East West and Northumberland rail lines get £794m boost

[The Planner]

On E-W Rail its only at the extremities of the project that you will need possessions the rest of the job is a standard construction site without any specific restrictions unless the T&W put limitation on hours near built up areas (of which there are few). I acknowledge that Bletchley is a more difficult and needs a lot of forward planning.

Ashington is a freight railway currently so the ability to get daytime possessions ought to be possible to allow more efficient working.

Ignoring COVID, getting sizeable blocks of the WCML south of Milton Keynes is neither cheap nor easy!

 

[PG]

We certainly should do by several years

I'm probably wrong/out-of-date but 2030 seemed like the suggested opening of HS1 while EW Rail supposedly would open around 2026.

 

[matacaster]

Whilst re-openings are good, spending seed corn on Ashington and the overwhelming bulk of the money not far north of London doesn't seem like levelling up the north.

 

[Ianno87]

Whilst re-openings are good, spending seed corn on Ashington and the overwhelming bulk of the money not far north of London doesn't seem like levelling up the north.

I must be imagining Transpennine Route Upgrade then...

 

[matacaster]

I must be imagining Transpennine Route Upgrade then...

I was not aware that the transpennine route was being re-opened. This money is supposedly about reopenings.

 

[21C101]

Ignoring COVID, getting sizeable blocks of the WCML south of Milton Keynes is neither cheap nor easy!

Shouldn't need blocks of the WCML, unless they are replacing the bit of the White Elephant at Bletchley that crosses the WCML?

 

[Ianno87]

I was not aware that the transpennine route was being re-opened. This money is supposedly about reopenings.

Overall rail investment should be about maximising outputs and benefits for the investment available however that is delivered (reopening, upgrade or otherwise), not reducing it to "for every reopening in one part of the country we need a reopening in another part of the country"

 

[21C101]

You can do anything if you’re prepared to pay.

You would be surprised its not as expensive as you think, other than getting set up to do things like switching the traction power off routinely every night.

There is an awful lot you can get done in a series of three hour windows if you organise it properly. Its only things like major track renewals and signalling commissionings that need all day or weekend blocks.

 

[6Gman]

Overall rail investment should be about maximising outputs and benefits for the investment available however that is delivered (reopening, upgrade or otherwise), not reducing it to "for every reopening in one part of the country we need a reopening in another part of the country"

I think the point being made is that the announcement refers to helping "left behind" communities. When 95.7% of the money announced is being spent in the Oxford - Milton Keynes - Cambridge corridor (not the usual idea of "left behind" *) this seems an odd claim.


* Yes, I know there are areas of deprivation even in the likes of Oxford but the concept of "left behind" communities [not a term I much like] is normally taken to mean the post-industrial communities of the North Midlands, North, South Wales etc.

 

[CptCharlee]

Interesting that East West Rail wont be in Network Rails remit and be it's own entity. Strange direction to take. Are we going to see more "private" operate rail lines?

 

[RT4038]

Oxford and Cambridge are 2 of the best universities in the world and are tourist traps in their own right. Covid hopefully will get stamped down soon so the train line should be ready in anticipation of users returning.

As they were in the 50s and 60s, but that didn't produce sufficient traffic between them. The line was planned for closure in 1959, pre Beeching plan. The much vaunted X5 express bus service (every half-hour) between the two places has recently been cut into two distinct pieces, acceptable because of the small numbers of through passengers. In Covid times, the section of route that covering the first part of proper EWR (Milton Keynes-Oxford) has been withdrawn completely, due to low loadings. The central section of railway, which never closed, is virtually moribund (even pre-Covid) .

I know things have changed since the line shut originally, with Milton Keynes being built and Oxford, Cambridge & Bedford expanding. I know rail enthusiasts will pooh-pooh buses. However the use of the existing public transport facilities on this corridor is not exactly comforting and I won't be holding my breath on success, however that may be measured. I hope to be proved wrong.

 

[Busaholic]

Whatever "initial work" can cost £34m? There won't be any signalling improvements, concrete poured or platform building in this. Just a "consultants report" of 200 PowerPoint pages from one of the usual handful of suspects, selected on the Buggins Turn Next principle, which will conclude ... er ... "we need more money to make a more detailed study".

Spot-on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New thread to discuss my light rail proposal for Ashington and similar: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...built-as-light-rather-than-heavy-rail.213423/

 

[The Planner]

Shouldn't need blocks of the WCML, unless they are replacing the bit of the White Elephant at Bletchley that crosses the WCML?

Which they are.

You would be surprised its not as expensive as you think, other than getting set up to do things like switching the traction power off routinely every night.

There is an awful lot you can get done in a series of three hour windows if you organise it properly. Its only things like major track renewals and signalling commissionings that need all day or weekend blocks.

Clearly you need to be dealing with all the delivery units who say they don't have enough and also want more to get rid of red zone!

 

[deep south]

I think the point being made is that the announcement refers to helping "left behind" communities. When 95.7% of the money announced is being spent in the Oxford - Milton Keynes - Cambridge corridor (not the usual idea of "left behind" *) this seems an odd claim.


* Yes, I know there are areas of deprivation even in the likes of Oxford but the concept of "left behind" communities [not a term I much like] is normally taken to mean the post-industrial communities of the North Midlands, North, South Wales etc.

This does highlight the misleading news releases from the government, they are very good at announcing the same thing multiple times, and the headline here is very misleading when less than 5% of the money is aimed at the Northumberland line.

 

[tetudo boy]

Don't make me laugh! - We're not electrifying so that "we can use, probably, the very latest technology, potentially, in the future," - if that's really the case why bother electrifying HS2!!
Too many ifs, buts and maybes...

Also seems a bit rich to stick East West Rail in the restoring railways list when we know its going to be happening!

If we were to electrify the lines it would be an absolute waste of money. Battery and Hydrogen trains are fine, but diesel trains I'm not so sure.

Anyways, it's an exciting investment and this is only the first two, so we could see more reopenings.

 

[nr758123]

I must be imagining Transpennine Route Upgrade then...

All but about 10% of the scheme announced several years ago, yes

 

[Glenn1969]

Yes you must be imagining it because they are still consulting and have made zero announcement even on how much it will cost or when it will start

 

[Djgr]

As they were in the 50s and 60s, but that didn't produce sufficient traffic between them. The line was planned for closure in 1959, pre Beeching plan. The much vaunted X5 express bus service (every half-hour) between the two places has recently been cut into two distinct pieces, acceptable because of the small numbers of through passengers. In Covid times, the section of route that covering the first part of proper EWR (Milton Keynes-Oxford) has been withdrawn completely, due to low loadings. The central section of railway, which never closed, is virtually moribund (even pre-Covid) .

I know things have changed since the line shut originally, with Milton Keynes being built and Oxford, Cambridge & Bedford expanding. I know rail enthusiasts will pooh-pooh buses. However the use of the existing public transport facilities on this corridor is not exactly comforting and I won't be holding my breath on success, however that may be measured. I hope to be proved wrong.

There isn't really much traffic all the way from Oxford to Cambridge and v.v., as per Liverpool to Norwich scenario.

There is some academic travel, which currently generally goes via London but the impression I get is that this routing is used an excuse to do some academic "chores" whilst in the capital e.g. visit the British library.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't really much traffic all the way from Oxford to Cambridge and v.v., as per Liverpool to Norwich scenario.

There is some academic travel, which currently generally goes via London but the impression I get is that this routing is used an excuse to do some academic "chores" whilst in the capital e.g. visit the British library.

Indeed. The need for it (and indeed demand for the X5) centres on Milton Keynes - which the Council have just announced a masterplan to increase to a population of 400K.

 

[21C101]

Clearly you need to be dealing with all the delivery units who say they don't have enough and also want more to get rid of red zone!

Forutnately I haven't had to deal with any of the delivery units or anyone else in Railtrack or it's successors since 2003.

Didn't think the White Elephant was life expired. No wonder its costing so much if they are doing things like that.

If we were to electrify the lines it would be an absolute waste of money. Battery and Hydrogen trains are fine, but diesel trains I'm not so sure.

Anyways, it's an exciting investment and this is only the first two, so we could see more reopenings.

Why on earth would either scheme have new stock of any sort. Plenty of <25 year old cascaded diesel units to use which is far more environmentally friendly to use than building new stock of any sort.

So much energy is used to build or dispose of stock that the most environmetally friendly thing to do is extract the maximum lifespan of existing stock.

The Isle of Wight (Ryde) is something of a shining city on a hill in this regard.

 

[PG]

Why on earth would either scheme have new stock of any sort. Plenty of <25 year old cascaded diesel units to use which is far more environmentally friendly to use than building new stock of any sort.

Plenty of EMUs going spare too...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting that East West Rail wont be in Network Rails remit and be it's own entity. Strange direction to take. Are we going to see more "private" operate rail lines?

It is still in public ownership and overseen by DfT/ORR though.
NR still has a strong interest at both ends, and I doubt it will conflict with NR strategy and standards.
The signalling will be interesting - self contained, or split between Didcot and Rugby? ETCS?
Heathrow is an example of NR non-ownership - but NR operated under contract. HS1 is another.

 

[BrianW]

Indeed. The need for it (and indeed demand for the X5) centres on Milton Keynes - which the Council have just announced a masterplan to increase to a population of 400K.

I cannot see any 'academic' needing to travel between Oxford and Cambridge- they even deny the existence of each other Don's are 'experts and are more likely to relate to the USA, and by Zoom or Skype or Teams or via a conference in Seoul. So maybe a trip to Heathrow (via Old Oak in due course?), or Oxford London Airport for a private jet, once a month, rather short of 2tph.
As regards tourists, how many old stone quads can one take? A visitor to Oxford is far more likely to visit Bicester Village (and back to London, Marylebone maybe, having travelled from China for their dozen pairs of shoes in a new suitcase, or travel on to Stratford on Avon for the afternoon and theatre before returning to London. I don't know about Cambridge; I have lived in Oxford!! I took the X5 Oxford-Cambridge one day, it felt like all day. Maybe MK the centre of England's Economic Heartland will generate 'business' (or tourism?)

 

[6Gman]

If we were to electrify the lines it would be an absolute waste of money. Battery and Hydrogen trains are fine, but diesel trains I'm not so sure.

Anyways, it's an exciting investment and this is only the first two, so we could see more reopenings.

An "absolute waste of money"?

Why?

Was wiring (e.g.) Blackpool "an absolute waste of money"?

 

[BrianW]

An "absolute waste of money"?

Why?

Was wiring (e.g.) Blackpool "an absolute waste of money"?

Maybe my Sinclair ZX Spectrum was an 'absolute waste of money'? Like my Sinclair C5? Or the Great Central?
Or Blackpool- the country's #1 centre of deprivation and party conference centre??
It's very hard to 'pick winners' or to 'let go lame ducks', or to get agreement on 'policy' and how best to invest.
We should perhaps rejoice in any investment, esp in infrastructure. Hip, hip, ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I cannot see any 'academic' needing to travel between Oxford and Cambridge- they even deny the existence of each other Don's are 'experts and are more likely to relate to the USA, and by Zoom or Skype or Teams or via a conference in Seoul. So maybe a trip to Heathrow (via Old Oak in due course?), or Oxford London Airport for a private jet, once a month, rather short of 2tph.
As regards tourists, how many old stone quads can one take? A visitor to Oxford is far more likely to visit Bicester Village (and back to London, Marylebone maybe, having travelled from China for their dozen pairs of shoes in a new suitcase, or travel on to Stratford on Avon for the afternoon and theatre before returning to London. I don't know about Cambridge; I have lived in Oxford!! I took the X5 Oxford-Cambridge one day, it felt like all day. Maybe MK the centre of England's Economic Heartland will generate 'business' (or tourism?)

Very good post - I strongly suspect it is not "end to end" business - but a series of overlapping flows and a dash of commuting.

I love the idea of (it the 2 university cities are once again linked by steel rails - or a solemn academic procession of senior academics from both "other places" - public orators and principals in their very best gowns - sending best wishes in Latin , to the doffing of mortar boards) -not counting the many poetic and literary connectors - supporters of Rupert Graves cordially meeting up with Oxford's finest writers .

Tourism and Milton Keynes seen as "not viable" in my view - bar Bletchley Park which is excellent. Concrete cows are a specialist sub-knowledge set.

 

[The Planner]

It is still in public ownership and overseen by DfT/ORR though.
NR still has a strong interest at both ends, and I doubt it will conflict with NR strategy and standards.
The signalling will be interesting - self contained, or split between Didcot and Rugby? ETCS?
Heathrow is an example of NR non-ownership - but NR operated under contract. HS1 is another.

Signaling is lights on sticks, lot of chat about ETCS overlay. Control from Rugby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tourism and Milton Keynes seen as "not viable" in my view - bar Bletchley Park which is excellent. Concrete cows are a specialist sub-knowledge set.

MK isn't a tourist destination (with a few exceptions - people will day-trip there to do stuff at Willen Lake like the high ropes and the cable tow), but it is pretty big and now planned to near-double in size, so it creates all sorts of other demands. It certainly is a shopping and business destination. Like with the X5 most journeys will be to/from there, not through past it.

 

[RT4038]

There isn't really much traffic all the way from Oxford to Cambridge and v.v., as per Liverpool to Norwich scenario.

There is some academic travel, which currently generally goes via London but the impression I get is that this routing is used an excuse to do some academic "chores" whilst in the capital e.g. visit the British library.

The two universities are rivals - I would be surprised if there was that much academic travel between the two by whichever route. A bit like saying Weston-Super-Mare and Bournemouth are both seaside resorts so there must be lots of travel between them!