East West and Northumberland rail lines get £794m boost

[21C101]

And... that makes it much more expensive. For example, to develop an alignment serving Luton Airport Parkway and Stevenage means building 11km of line that would be almost entirely in tunnel, deep cutting or Viaduct. Plus three grade separated junctions. That would be £1.5bn plus. And it doesn’t solve the issue of capacity from Bedford to Luton, or Stevenage to Cambridge.

Agreed it is much more expensive, but links a far bigger population.

Don't think it is much of an issue capacity wise. On both lines it would link to the slow/relief lines and in the case of the ECML by grade separated interface at both stevenage (courtesy Hertford Loop) and Hitchin, on a stretch that has inevitable spare capacity due to the Welwyn viaduct and Tunnel.

On the MML the north end of Ampthill Tunnel to Luton Airport Parkway has capacity, it is Harpenden Junction southwards where it gets messy.

Its too late now, the option has been rejected, but it is to my mind a missed opportunity, and I don't see hordes of people wanting fast trains from Cambridge to Bedford and Bletchley.

The Stanstead via Hertford service that AOwen derided was part of that rejected option

 

[edwin_m]

If I remember correctly the early studies for East West Rail included an option via Luton. I think it attracted more passengers but not enough to justify the extra cost.

 

[Hadders]

a stretch that has inevitable spare capacity due to the Welwyn viaduct and Tunnel.

I don't believe there is any capacity on the slows between Stevenage and Hitchin. Bear in mind that the inner suburban services terminate at Welwyn Garden City so the viaduct is not the limiting feature to the extent you think it is.

Off Peak on the slows at Hitchin every hour there are the 4 Thameslink services, the two semi fasts (i.e. the services that call at Knebworth) and the 2 Cambridge Cruisers that have to access the Cambridge branch (via the down slow if they're using the new flyover) and that's before you start considering freight and the peak extras.

 

[21C101]

@21C101 wrote: "Not proper engineering hours where the line is shut and traction isolated every night or fixed nights every week whether anyone is working or not and facilities in place that work can be booked with multiple worksites in different places (including overlapping) at a few days notice?"

@Bald Rick wrote: "There is nowhere on the NR Network that has that type of arrangement."

@21C101 wrote: "Yes, that is the whole point."

@Bald Rick wrote: "And?"

NR is not the only major heavy rail network in the UK. There are others who have been doing this successfully for decades. It wouldn't fly everywhere on NR for reasons stated above but could be done, if the will was there, on the majority of the network.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/non-nec-template-access-terms.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjiqOOh9LLuAhV1pHEKHUXJD6IQFjABegQIAhAF&usg=AOvVaw2eTQQPsA2G7QI38VOtCXdE

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tectraining.co.uk/doc/LU-Protecting-Worker-On-Track-Engineering-Hours-Information-Booklet-March-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjiqOOh9LLuAhV1pHEKHUXJD6IQFjACegQIEhAB&usg=AOvVaw38BuPSsRvDQTEIyg_MdZIG

 

[6Gman]

I really don't understand why people are being so negative about this. This is some of the best news I've heard over the past year.

I think the negativity is directed at the Government's cynicism is announcing a scheme that has already been pitched several times added to funding for planning a project and portraying it as some huge step in new reopenings.

 

[21C101]

I think the negativity is directed at the Government's cynicism is announcing a scheme that has already been pitched several times added to funding for planning a project and portraying it as some huge step in new reopenings.

That has been going on certainly since 1997 or perhaps even 1991, similarly announcing renewals of life expired assets as investment when it no such thing.

Basically every stage in the process gets announced as the "go-ahead", this one really is the go ahead as it is the final commitment of funding to build it.

 

[PG]

Basically every stage in the process gets announced as the "go-ahead", this one really is the go ahead as it is the final commitment of funding to build it.

In that case I look forward to the next publicity being about things actually happening, not another re-announcement of the funding being provided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've not taken the X5 or know it's route but off the top of my head if I was driving from Oxford to Cambridge and not using the M25, I'd be thinking of the A34, M40, A43 and either via A421/A428 (Milton Keynes) or via Northampton and the A14. No wonder people don't think to travel between the two cities.

A34, A4421 (through Bicester, used to be numbered A421 but that now officially goes via the M40 first), Buckingham (Tesco then through town), A422, A5, A509 then I forget. Other than that I'd probably do A421 Buckingham-Bedford these days (as the new dual carriageway is quite fast) it's the logical route to drive it if not going M40-M25-M11.

It doesn't stop between Buckingham and MK (it doesn't serve Deanshanger as someone said it did on one of the threads) so does sometimes divert via the A421/Standing Way if there's a problem on the 422. I've been on it at least once when it did, which was frustrating as I live just off there and had to double back onto a 4 to get home!

 

[Class 170101]

I think we're so used to the politicians spinning and re-announcing stuff that when a genuine announcement is made of something new, people find it hard to believe.

Must admit I'm cynical too, doesn't a politican(s) usually like to stand up somewhere local to the project and announce it from the 'roof tops' rather than via a wriiten statement to the BBC and other media outlets, regardless of COVID.

Still @Bald Rick is on the case so less cynism needed hopefully.

 

[BrianW]

Must admit I'm cynical too, doesn't a politican(s) usually like to stand up somewhere local to the project and announce it from the 'roof tops' rather than via a wriiten statement to the BBC and other media outlets, regardless of COVID.

Still @Bald Rick is on the case so less cynism needed hopefully.

Oxford Parkway Station was opened by the then PM and local-ish MP Sir David Cameron (remember him?). Who will open Bletchley and MK South High Level- it's quite a bike ride from the Olympic Park? Maybe that will before the reopening of Barnard Castle station (a 'Beeching closure'?) by Lord Cummings of Vision Express. Cynical or what?

 

[21C101]

A34, A4421 (through Bicester, used to be numbered A421 but that now officially goes via the M40 first), Buckingham (Tesco then through town), A422, A5, A509 then I forget. Other than that I'd probably do A421 Buckingham-Bedford these days (as the new dual carriageway is quite fast) it's the logical route to drive it if not going M40-M25-M11.

It doesn't stop between Buckingham and MK (it doesn't serve Deanshanger as someone said it did on one of the threads) so does sometimes divert via the A421/Standing Way if there's a problem on the 422. I've been on it at least once when it did, which was frustrating as I live just off there and had to double back onto a 4 to get home!

Once the gap between Black Cat (A1) and Camborne is plugged in a year or three you will have continuous Expressway/Motorway from Felixstowe via Cambridge to the M1 at Junction 13 and from the M40 at Bicester to Southampton via Oxford, with a Roman goat track called A421 linking them via Buckingham.

I suspect the grand Oxford to Cambridge expressway that has now been put on ice will re-emerge as a new southern bypass of MK and online dualling of the A421 from there to the A43/A421 junction at Ardley

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the grand Oxford to Cambridge expressway that has now been put on ice will re-emerge as a new southern bypass of MK and online dualling of the A421 from there to the A43/A421 junction at Ardley

I can see that happening. I suspect one of the greatest regrets of the building of MK is having built the A5D[1] but not built an A421D perpendicular to it.

[1] D = diversionary; I don't know if that's any sort of official title, but locally the "sunken" dual carriageway is known as the A5D and the "original" V4 Watling St often as the "old A5".

 

[Bald Rick]

NR is not the only major heavy rail network in the UK. There are others who have been doing this successfully for decades. It wouldn't fly everywhere on NR for reasons stated above but could be done, if the will was there, on the majority of the network.

No, but it one of only two heavy rail networks in the Britain with 25kV OLE and trains that run above 60mph, and the only one with mixed traffic both in terms of speed and type,with freight and overnight traffic in quantity over much of the network, some long distances between stations, equipment and access points. It’s not a metro.

 

[21C101]

No, but it one of only two heavy rail networks in the Britain with 25kV OLE and trains that run above 60mph, and the only one with mixed traffic both in terms of speed and type,with freight and overnight traffic in quantity over much of the network, some long distances between stations, equipment and access points. It’s not a metro.

Nor are the subsurface lines of LUL metro in anything but name e.g. Metropolitan Line north of Baker Street, they are just bundled with one through accident of history.

Nearly all the overnight and freight traffic is concentrated on a handful of NR main lines these days with the disappearance of newspapers, parcels, wagonload freight and most sleeper services.

Virtually all of the Southern is more akin to the Met Line as a railway than it is to the West Coast Main Line.

I agree that engineering hours are not practicable on the WCML ECML and probably GWML and MML as well as the Thameslink Core, but that still leaves vast swathes of the network that rarely if ever see a revenue earning train between Midnight and 5AM.

As to having speeds in excess of 60mph and 25kV, I would say that far from a reason not to have engineering works, it is a reason to concentrate work into engineering hours with the railway shut and OHLE switched off.

I wouldn't be surprised to see pressure in that direction from HMRI in coming years.

Over time it could also be done on much of places like the midland main line by segregating the four track infrastructure into two separately controlled two track lines, allowing alternate pairs of tracks to have engineering hours on alternate nights, although the cost would of necessity make that a long term project carried out at a resignalling or electrification renewal.

 

[RT4038]

Nor are the subsurface lines of LUL metro in anything but name e.g. Metropolitan Line north of Baker Street, they are just bundled with one through accident of history.

Nearly all the overnight and freight traffic is concentrated on a handful of NR main lines these days with the disappearance of newspapers, parcels, wagonload freight and most sleeper services.

Virtually all of the Southern is more akin to the Met Line as a railway than it is to the West Coast Main Line.

I agree that engineering hours are not practicable on the WCML ECML and probably GWML and MML as well as the Thameslink Core, but that still leaves vast swathes of the network that rarely if ever see a revenue earning train between Midnight and 5AM.

As to having speeds in excess of 60mph and 25kV, I would say that far from a reason not to have engineering works, it is a reason to concentrate work into engineering hours with the railway shut and OHLE switched off.

I wouldn't be surprised to see pressure in that direction from HMRI in coming years.

Over time it could also be done on much of places like the midland main line by segregating the four track infrastructure into two separately controlled two track lines, allowing alternate pairs of tracks to have engineering hours on alternate nights, although the cost would of necessity make that a long term project carried out at a resignalling or electrification renewal.

This seems to be very, very far away from the thread title?

 

[Djgr]

Thats like asking for directions and getting the response: "Well I wouldn't start from here!"...

Apart from the world class universities, there really are no links between Oxford and Cambridge, no more than say between Banbury and Ely or Chester and York.

 

[DustyBin]

Has it been confirmed yet where trains from Ashington will run from and to? I jumped to the conclusion that they’d run between there and Newcastle Central but I’ve not seen anything announced in this regard. They could to start and finish at Sunderland or Carlisle for example. They could even potentially run to the airport along the Metro line (most of the section involved has been used by heavy rail previously). I may be getting a bit carried away there but it would save passengers changing at Northumberland Park and then South Gosforth.

 

[swt_passenger]

Has it been confirmed yet where trains from Ashington will run from and to? I jumped to the conclusion that they’d run between there and Newcastle Central but I’ve not seen anything announced in this regard. They could to start and finish at Sunderland or Carlisle for example. They could even potentially run to the airport along the Metro line (most of the section involved has been used by heavy rail previously). I may be getting a bit carried away there but it would save passengers changing at Northumberland Park and then South Gosforth.

Heavy rail into Newcastle Central is the only service mentioned in extant planning documentation. They will not run on Metro infrastructure at all, plans are fairly well developed as is discussed in the existing thread:

Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

As Rich said this money is purely to fund the next phase of design work not a guarantee of the line opening. As for politics I happen to think most of these seats are borrowed because people were voting for who would deliver Brexit at the Ballot Box in December plus in 2024 the Tories will pay a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DustyBin]

Heavy rail into Newcastle Central is the only service mentioned in extant planning documentation. They will not run on Metro infrastructure at all, plans are fairly well developed as is discussed in the existing thread:

Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

As Rich said this money is purely to fund the next phase of design work not a guarantee of the line opening. As for politics I happen to think most of these seats are borrowed because people were voting for who would deliver Brexit at the Ballot Box in December plus in 2024 the Tories will pay a...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks, that’s all I’d seen but it got me thinking. The airport idea was purely speculative and something possibly for the future.

 

[A0wen]

The Stanstead via Hertford service that AOwen derided was part of that rejected option

Just because it was mentioned in the analysis, doesn't mean it makes any sense.

Given there isn't even sufficient demand for a regular bus or coach service from most of mid / east Herts to Stansted, the suggestion that a rail link would be viable is laughable. A long time ago the Green Line 724 was extended to Stansted, that was curtailed to Harlow *at least* 20 years ago. Other sevices have been tried and failed.

It seems like most of Stansted's demand comes either from London or Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambs.

I lived in Herts for over 20 years and have lived in Northants for 20 years - in all that time I've flown out of Stansted ONCE - and that was on business. When family or friends at either have flown, it's far more common to be flying from Luton, Birmingham, Heathrow or even Gatwick.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, that’s all I’d seen but it got me thinking. The airport idea was purely speculative and something possibly for the future.

There’s been a lot of discussion about the likelihood of extension across Newcastle, eg at least to Metrocentre, and I think it’s likely to happen if only to avoid platform blocking. But possibly a bit too early for that level of detail.

 

[21C101]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the likelihood of extension across Newcastle, eg at least to Metrocentre, and I think it’s likely to happen if only to avoid platform blocking. But possibly a bit too early for that level of detail.

In much the same way as the Worksop to Nottingham service is extended to Matlock on occasion?

It would make sense. It might also on occasion be spliced to a Newcastle to Carlisle service.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that we do welcome speculative suggestions, but we do ask that these are posted exclusively in the Speculative Ideas forum section please.

For updates (not speculation) regarding these two schemes, please use the following threads:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-west-rail-progress-and-updates-not-speculation.99892
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northumberland-line-to-be-re-opened-to-passengers.204414/unread

For speculation, please use the Speculative Ideas section.

For speculation regarding the Blyth & Tyne route, an existing thread can be found here:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-the-blyth-and-tyne-route-be-reopened.177921/