Economics of Riverbus services

[Chester1]

I was reading a newspaper article about new Riverbuses being bought for London and it made me wonder why no other UK city has any significant cross city services? I know Cardiff has a very limited opperation and Manchester has a small water taxis and there are cross river short journey ferries, most famously between Liverpool and Wirral. Surely its a low infrastructure cost option for cities with a major river or canal? For instance Manchester and Salford have the River Irwell from outside Victoria Station which then turns into the Manchester Ship Canal which is next to / part of Salford Quays and runs next to the Trafford Centre. The Bridgewater Canal runs from Deansgate to Trafford Centre and Altrincham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The economics are quite poor - they are very staff intensive. No DOO (COO?) here!

London is different in two ways - the heavy overcrowding on other modes of transport (Tube) and the number of tourists. Between them a premium fare is viable.

The Mersey Ferries have terrible economics by comparison.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

The Mersey Ferry is also a fair way from many bus services, especially at Birkenhead, so door to door journey times are probably no quicker than by going by bus direct via the tunnel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Docking and undocking boats is so slow a bus will almost always be faster, particularly an express bus.

 

[Chester1]

Does any western city do a service with boats that are essentially massive speed boats? I took a boat between Siem Reap and Phomn Penh that had 25 rows of leather seats in 2 + 2 seating with food sold at the front and a couple of WCs at the back. It felt like they had googled lots of photos of European trains before kitting it out! With UK health and safety I would happily use something like that regularly. Its top speed was at least 20mph but it certainly wouldn't be safe on the sea or a river estuary.

 

[sheff1]

The Bristol water bus runs a reasonable service. No idea on the economics.

 

[sheff1]

Does any western city do a service with boats that are essentially massive speed boats? I took a boat between Siem Reap and Phomn Penh that had 25 rows of leather seats in 2 + 2 seating with food sold at the front and a couple of WCs at the back. It felt like they had googled lots of photos of European trains before kitting it out! With UK health and safety I would happily use something like that regularly. Its top speed was at least 20mph but it certainly wouldn't be safe on the sea or a river estuary.

The Fast Flying Ferry from Amsterdam to Velsen had a top speed of 65 km/hour and was a very interesting trip. However, after some incidents and resulting speed restrictions the service was withdrawn in 2013.

 

[edwin_m]

Relevant to this topic...

Continuing our occasional series on the river’s relationship with transport in London, we look at how River Buses have grown from a single boat carrying ‎60 passengers a day, to a network of six routes, carrying over 4.4 million commuters and tourists a year.

https://www.londonreconnections.com...ighway-part-2-surprising-success-river-buses/

I suspect part of the issue is that few cities apart from London have a range of major destinations that connected by a navigable river. For example Newcastle only has the Quayside which is too small to have more than one stop, there is a bridge to the Gateshead side and accessing anywhere else from the riverside involves a steep climb. In Nottingham the most significant area accessible by river is round Trent Bridge, but not a major centre and there's nowhere to connect it to. Apart from Manchester/Salford I suspect Glasgow would be the most likely place that might be worth looking at for a riverbus.

 

[Clip]

Relevant to this topic...



https://www.londonreconnections.com...ighway-part-2-surprising-success-river-buses/

I suspect part of the issue is that few cities apart from London have a range of major destinations that connected by a navigable river. For example Newcastle only has the Quayside which is too small to have more than one stop, there is a bridge to the Gateshead side and accessing anywhere else from the riverside involves a steep climb. In Nottingham the most significant area accessible by river is round Trent Bridge, but not a major centre and there's nowhere to connect it to. Apart from Manchester/Salford I suspect Glasgow would be the most likely place that might be worth looking at for a riverbus.

Newcastle still has the Tyne ferry though - but its no real surprise as its very good for connecting the two different ends of the estuary

 

[anti-pacer]

Leeds has a water taxi service too. I have no idea of its economics

In the case of the River Irwell in Manchester (as someone mentioned), one question - is it deep enough to support a boat?

 

[rebmcr]

I suspect part of the issue is that few cities apart from London have a range of major destinations that connected by a navigable river. For example Newcastle only has the Quayside which is too small to have more than one stop, there is a bridge to the Gateshead side and accessing anywhere else from the riverside involves a steep climb. In Nottingham the most significant area accessible by river is round Trent Bridge, but not a major centre and there's nowhere to connect it to. Apart from Manchester/Salford I suspect Glasgow would be the most likely place that might be worth looking at for a riverbus.

Quite right. Does Dublin have anything similar? Its river is pretty central and has extended range compared to most of those examples.

 

[anti-pacer]

Quite right. Does Dublin have anything similar? Its river is pretty central and has extended range compared to most of those examples.

I believe it has a waterbus service.

 

[Busaholic]

Please don't forget the Woolwich Free Ferry when discussing city river transport. It's been under threat for some years, but battles on, for foot passengers and vehicles alike. It even carries the occasional bus, but not in public service unfortunately.

 

[Deerfold]

Leeds has a water taxi service too. I have no idea of its economics.

It's certainly unusual in being free!

https://www.leedsdock.com/the-voice/leeds-dock-water-taxi/

 

[anti-pacer]

It's certainly unusual in being free!

https://www.leedsdock.com/the-voice/leeds-dock-water-taxi/

Well I never knew that! hock:

 

[theageofthetra]

Docking and undocking boats is so slow a bus will almost always be faster, particularly an express bus.

See how they do it in Venice for smaller vessels or the Greek islands or Dalmatian coast for ocean going. Can be achieved very quickly with the right training.

 

[theageofthetra]

Does any western city do a service with boats that are essentially massive speed boats? I took a boat between Siem Reap and Phomn Penh that had 25 rows of leather seats in 2 + 2 seating with food sold at the front and a couple of WCs at the back. It felt like they had googled lots of photos of European trains before kitting it out! With UK health and safety I would happily use something like that regularly. Its top speed was at least 20mph but it certainly wouldn't be safe on the sea or a river estuary.

Bratislava to Vienna is operated at high speed and is only 15 mins slower than the train but is actually quicker depending where in either city you are based/going to.

The introduction of proper riverbus services on the Thames is a very recent thing. They were blocked for many years by the all powerful families who controlled the tourist boat racket.

The other big issue with London is that since the river was drastically narrowed with the building of the embankments in Victorian times it has the highest tidal range of any major city. This still has a major effect on the riverbus services and regular commuters find their stops unusable at tidal extremes. Unfortunately they have become a victim of their own success as they have become so popular with tourists that it is hard to keep a schedule as the Australian built vessels were not designed for frequent stops and quick entrance/exit (similar to 442's on commuter services)

 

[edwin_m]

See how they do it in Venice for smaller vessels or the Greek islands or Dalmatian coast for ocean going. Can be achieved very quickly with the right training.

The Thames Clipper seems to tie up and cast off pretty quickly but the problem is more the rate of boarding and alighting passengers. They have to know the number of passengers on board at all times so if they had more doors they'd probably need more crew members to count people, unless they consider the sort of automatic counting fitted to some trains to be good enough to rely on for safety purposes.

 

[jopsuk]

Thames Clippers have something like six or seven staff for 220 passengers, on a vehicle with a low top speed that is constrained to a very meandering route!. I've seen some suggestions of running Clipper services out to the estuary towns- but at 33 knots and burning huge amounts of fuel this would be madness. Especially going up river on an ebb tide.

 

[berneyarms]

Quite right. Does Dublin have anything similar? Its river is pretty central and has extended range compared to most of those examples.

I believe it has a waterbus service.

Dublin has a tourist boat that starts/finishes at the same point but no commuter services.

The high tides prove problematic at some city centre bridges.

 

[Chester1]

Thames Clippers have something like six or seven staff for 220 passengers, on a vehicle with a low top speed that is constrained to a very meandering route!. I've seen some suggestions of running Clipper services out to the estuary towns- but at 33 knots and burning huge amounts of fuel this would be madness. Especially going up river on an ebb tide.

How come so many staff are needed? I assume that the low speed is due to other river traffic?

 

[PeterC]

I assume that the low speed is due to other river traffic?

Speed limit set by the PLA for authorised "fast" boats. If you are going downstream (which the original reference to the speed limit applied to) there are large vessels manouvering in and out of berths at a number of places. Above the Barrier there are a lot of tourist boats and these days quite a few leasure boaters in the way.

 

[philthetube]

How come so many staff are needed? I assume that the low speed is due to other river traffic?

Staff levels are based primarily on evacuation requirements, lifejackets to be distributed, lifeboats to be launched and staffed rtc.

 

[Mojo]

Docking and undocking boats is so slow a bus will almost always be faster, particularly an express bus.

It doesn't have to be though. I always find the inefficiency of docking and unloading to be one of the most painful parts of travelling by boat, but was very impressed with the SeaBus in Vancouver that I visited recently. The boat docks in between two piers and six bridges come down on each side (6 doors on each side in total). Customers leave on one side, staff check the vessel is empty, and they open doors for boarding on the other side. I timed it and on every occasion doors are opened within 25 seconds of stopping. The large number of doors means that it is great for getting customers on and off quickly. Doors open automatically on both sides.

 

[jopsuk]

For speed? It's mainly a matter of physics! Even hydrofoil ferries (eg Boeing 929) top out at 50mph-ish in flat seas and drink fuel at a prodigious rate.

Ferries are great if they're running on routes where they're the most practical option. Riverboats along the Thames do not fulfill that brief as there are rail routes, more direct, serving the same corridor!

 

[Busaholic]

It doesn't have to be though. I always find the inefficiency of docking and unloading to be one of the most painful parts of travelling by boat, but was very impressed with the SeaBus in Vancouver that I visited recently. The boat docks in between two piers and six bridges come down on each side (6 doors on each side in total). Customers leave on one side, staff check the vessel is empty, and they open doors for boarding on the other side. I timed it and on every occasion doors are opened within 25 seconds of stopping. The large number of doors means that it is great for getting customers on and off quickly. Doors open automatically on both sides.

In Venice it's remarkably quick too, especially when there are no non-Venetians to slow things up.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For speed? It's mainly a matter of physics! Even hydrofoil ferries (eg Boeing 929) top out at 50mph-ish in flat seas and drink fuel at a prodigious rate.

Norway is making the first tentative steps to electric ferries. Would that help the fuel/pollution issue?

Following two years of trials of the world's first electric car ferry, named Ampere, ferry operators are busy making the transition from diesel to comply with new government requirements for all new ferry licensees to deliver zero- or low-emission alternatives.

"We continue the work with low-emission ferries because we believe it will benefit the climate, Norwegian industry and Norwegian jobs," Prime Minister Erna Solberg said in a speech in April 2016, in which she vowed to help fund required quayside infrastructure.

Ferry company Fjord1, which operates the MF Norangsfjord, has ordered three fully electric ferries that are scheduled to enter active service on some of its routes in January 2018.

 

[Martin66]

The Tyne ferry is part of the metro system between North & South Shields.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Norway is making the first tentative steps to electric ferries. Would that help the fuel/pollution issue?

I know it doesn't *quite* apply to this case, but...

If only there was a shipping propulsion technology, ideal particularly for low speed freight workings, that was totally environmentally friendly, 100% sustainable and completely free of charge. And well-tested over hundreds of years too.

I wonder what that one would be?

 

[philthetube]

How is the Reedham Ferry powered? Is seemed very quiet and didn't hear engine ticking over when stationary, or engine being started.