Edinburgh Tram developments

[34D]

About friggin' time! Finally I can look to organising a flight to Edinburgh to score the new tram line!

*Looks at bringing forward my Central Scotland rover trip significantly*

Surprised you didn't do it in Feb when many others did?

 

[ModernRailways]

...other than this article here

Or timetable details for that matter..

Oh come on! You don't expect them to have everything ready for the first trams do you? /s

They probably don't have a timetable and will just run every 15-20 minutes (hopefully more frequent).

 

[theageofthetra]

Any news whether a weekly Lothian Bus pass will be valid on the trams?

 

[Deerfold]

Any news whether a weekly Lothian Bus pass will be valid on the trams?

Yes - as I mentioned just a few posts ago, Ridacards will be accepted.

 

[Slugger Onions]

Hi guys.

I'm not from the UK but I'm something of a transport enthusiast. I've been seeing articles about establishing modern trams/light rail in Edinburgh for a decade, but usually in the background. I've managed to find and take a look at the original proposals from over a decade ago and get an idea of what unfolded since.
I have to say (at the very least); I've not formed a very favourable impression.

Can someone please confirm the following;
1) The project has run horrendously over the budget forecasts and been scaled back from three lines to a truncation of one line (only serving the airport).
2) Someone in the Edinburgh local government actually bought 27 nice new trams & a depot from CAF (I presume to ensure the project would not be cancelled) when only 7 will actually be required. And that the trams will not be easy to sell to other cities due to a generous size/loading gauge.
3) The actual laying of the tracks in the old town has been a disaster with enormous delays and cost overruns due to subcontractors making mistakes (for whatever reason). Oh, and also due to tracks with the wrong profile actually being purchased and laid.

Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?

The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
But this Edinburgh attempt really looks like a complete debacle, and with little if anything positive resulting. The level of incompetence from whoever's responsible seems frankly criminal.
Is this funded from the Edinburgh local body government or has it had some level of state funding? Because if it has had the latter; Leeds could be justified in being rather furious in not getting the tramway they did their homework on.

 

[scotsman]

Hi guys.

I'm not from the UK but I'm something of a transport enthusiast. I've been seeing articles about establishing modern trams/light rail in Edinburgh for a decade, but usually in the background. I've managed to find and take a look at the original proposals from over a decade ago and get an idea of what unfolded since.
I have to say (at the very least); I've not formed a very favourable impression.

Can someone please confirm the following;
1) The project has run horrendously over the budget forecasts and been scaled back from three lines to a truncation of one line (only serving the airport).
2) Someone in the Edinburgh local government actually bought 27 nice new trams & a depot from CAF (I presume to ensure the project would not be cancelled) when only 7 will actually be required. And that the trams will not be easy to sell to other cities due to a generous size/loading gauge.
3) The actual laying of the tracks in the old town has been a disaster with enormous delays and cost overruns due to subcontractors making mistakes (for whatever reason). Oh, and also due to tracks with the wrong profile actually being purchased and laid.

Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?

The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
But this Edinburgh attempt really looks like a complete debacle, and with little if anything positive resulting. The level of incompetence from whoever's responsible seems frankly criminal.
Is this funded from the Edinburgh local body government or has it had some level of state funding? Because if it has had the latter; Leeds could be justified in being rather furious in not getting the tramway they did their homework on.

Yes, your points are all correct. I live in Edinburgh, the bus network is second to none. The mismanagement was early on in the project, in the latter part the council played a much more active role and managed to prevent things getting much worse.

The project was funded by both Edinburgh City Council and the Scottish Government. Hence, Leeds has no reason to be upset.

 

[Slugger Onions]

Yes, your points are all correct. I live in Edinburgh, the bus network is second to none. The mismanagement was early on in the project, in the latter part the council played a much more active role and managed to prevent things getting much worse.

The project was funded by both Edinburgh City Council and the Scottish Government. Hence, Leeds has no reason to be upset.

Okay but one question:

When they made the decision to truncate the one route that will actually be built; why did they choose retaining the airport connection over Leith?
The bus service to the airport seemed excellent to me, and the airport is immediately adjacent to a heavy rail corridor!

 

[Blindtraveler]

the airport is not the be all and end all and, other than enthusiasts I very much doubt the tram will make any difference to how airlink opperates. The line also serves a busy park and ride, a major shopping complex and the RBS HQ all of which have potential to offer it a high number of passengers. Be that as it may and despite the tripe both council and government have trotted out Iv yet to meet a single person who wants this, again other than enthusiasts. ↲

 

[kylemore]

Hi guys.

I'm not from the UK but I'm something of a transport enthusiast. I've been seeing articles about establishing modern trams/light rail in Edinburgh for a decade, but usually in the background. I've managed to find and take a look at the original proposals from over a decade ago and get an idea of what unfolded since.
I have to say (at the very least); I've not formed a very favourable impression.

Can someone please confirm the following;
1) The project has run horrendously over the budget forecasts and been scaled back from three lines to a truncation of one line (only serving the airport).
2) Someone in the Edinburgh local government actually bought 27 nice new trams & a depot from CAF (I presume to ensure the project would not be cancelled) when only 7 will actually be required. And that the trams will not be easy to sell to other cities due to a generous size/loading gauge.
3) The actual laying of the tracks in the old town has been a disaster with enormous delays and cost overruns due to subcontractors making mistakes (for whatever reason). Oh, and also due to tracks with the wrong profile actually being purchased and laid.

Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?

The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
But this Edinburgh attempt really looks like a complete debacle, and with little if anything positive resulting. The level of incompetence from whoever's responsible seems frankly criminal.
Is this funded from the Edinburgh local body government or has it had some level of state funding? Because if it has had the latter; Leeds could be justified in being rather furious in not getting the tramway they did their homework on.

The main problem Slugger is that the diversion of utilities developed into a complete disaster. The Council and it's agencies desperately tried to blame the contractors however the evidence is that the said Council and it's agencies were largely to blame.

The council was in denial as the catastrophe unfolded and as the time delays and huge cost overuns built up, at this stage the project should have been cancelled by the Govt who were largely paying for it, however for political reasons and essentially to save face a much reduced project went ahead largely being taken out of the incompetent Council and TIE hands.

The part that is being completed has been dictated by the location of the depot and not for traffic reasons - it would have made more sense economically to open from Haymarket to Leith however there would have been no depot!

Ongoing losses from this truncated section will eventually force the Council to privatise or part privatise Lothian Buses (Mr Souter and Stagecoach appear to be positioning themselves for this hence their non-involvement in bidding for Scotrail). The new owners will be hailed the saviours of the trams and pressure will eventually build up for extensions backed up by propaganda from the Evening News which has been brought into the pro Trams/Council orbit.

Thats more or less it in a nutshell Slugger (though others may disagree).

 

[ianhr]

The part that is being completed has been dictated by the location of the depot and not for traffic reasons - it would have made more sense economically to open from Haymarket to Leith however there would have been no depot!

How far/near is the depot from the Airport? Could they not have just built it from the depot to Leith. Everyone seems to agree that the Airport stop will be the least used part of the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
But this Edinburgh attempt really looks like a complete debacle, and with little if anything positive resulting. The level of incompetence from whoever's responsible seems frankly criminal.

I would add the Blackpool modernisation to the list of successes, although of course this system never closed apart from for reconstruction.

I agree that Manchester, despite all the hype, is only a qualified success in so far as a lot of people seem to want to use it. It suffers from very poor planning and the hybrid nature of the system. They cannot decide what it is: metro, interurban, street tramway? Service speeds are very low, frequent beakdowns and disruption, high fares, useless TVMs, inappropriate rolling stock, clumsy over-engineered industrial design. No one in their right mind would use it to travel from the City Centre to Eccles! Having said all that they DO get new routes built quickly and ahead of schedule, unlike Edinburgh!

 

[oldman]

Ongoing losses from this truncated section will eventually force the Council to privatise or part privatise Lothian Buses (Mr Souter and Stagecoach appear to be positioning themselves for this hence their non-involvement in bidding for Scotrail). The new owners will be hailed the saviours of the trams and pressure will eventually build up for extensions backed up by propaganda from the Evening News which has been brought into the pro Trams/Council orbit.

Er, well, maybe. Stagecoach could not bid for Scotrail as they run most Scottish long-distance services, as well as local routes north and southwest of the central belt. The Evening News publishes anti-tram stories on a daily basis and I can not imagine them becoming pro-extending the network.

The tram goes where it could be built without knocking down houses, rather than where it might be useful. The same applies to the branch from Roseburn. The route serves a very small residential population because it runs next to the railway, unlike the Leith extension which would probably have done well. But building in streets is a problem, as we found out.

 

[kylemore]

How far/near is the depot from the Airport? Could they not have just built it from the depot to Leith. Everyone seems to agree that the Airport stop will be the least used part of the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Depot was under construction by the time the final collapse of the original scheme came, large areas of suitable land not earmarked for other development were not easily available in the North of the City or in Leith at the time, so the depot was built where it was cheapest to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Er, well, maybe. Stagecoach could not bid for Scotrail as they run most Scottish long-distance services, as well as local routes north and southwest of the central belt. The Evening News publishes anti-tram stories on a daily basis and I can not imagine them becoming pro-extending the network.

The tram goes where it could be built without knocking down houses, rather than where it might be useful. The same applies to the branch from Roseburn. The route serves a very small residential population because it runs next to the railway, unlike the Leith extension which would probably have done well. But building in streets is a problem, as we found out.

Sorry to be a bit "cloak and daggerish" but Stagecoach already have people working within Lothian Buses.

The attitude of the Evening News has underwent serious change since there was change of personnel at the top, yes they go with the odd "parking on the tramlines" story but when push comes to shove their coverage is now firmly pro-council/tram as you will see once it does finally open.

 

[Slugger Onions]

I would add the Blackpool modernisation to the list of successes, although of course this system never closed apart from for reconstruction.

Well yeah, I was talking more about establishing a modern light rail/tramway rather than Blackpool's upgrading of a retained heritage system.

I agree that Manchester, despite all the hype, is only a qualified success in so far as a lot of people seem to want to use it. It suffers from very poor planning and the hybrid nature of the system. They cannot decide what it is: metro, interurban, street tramway? Service speeds are very low, frequent beakdowns and disruption, high fares, useless TVMs, inappropriate rolling stock, clumsy over-engineered industrial design. No one in their right mind would use it to travel from the City Centre to Eccles!

I regard the Manchester metrolink as merely a light railway like the Stadtbahn's employed in many western German cities. If they ever get to justify routing the street-running central sections into a cut-and-cover tunnel with underground stations it could join the Tyne & Wear metro in England's equivalent to a pre metro/U-Stadbahn/metro leger.
And in my opinion the Manchester Metrolink (when I used it) was overall average. It's not very good and yet it's certainly not poor either. It was okay, and had potential to be better.

 

[Zoidberg]

How far/near is the depot from the Airport? ...

The depot at Gogar is adjacent to the airport. If I've done it correctly you should be able to see from this link to Google maps. 'A' is the approximate location of the depot.

http://goo.gl/maps/cN533

 

[Batman]

Ongoing losses from this truncated section will eventually force the Council to privatise or part privatise Lothian Buses (Mr Souter and Stagecoach appear to be positioning themselves for this hence their non-involvement in bidding for Scotrail).
Thats more or less it in a nutshell Slugger (though others may disagree).

So a bit like how the UK government practically forced WMPTE to sell West Midlands Travel in 1991? They told them that if they didn't privatise their bus operations the government would withhold their share of the funding for the Midland Metro?

WMPTE did eventually privatise and the government coughed up the cash, although WMT was sold for far less than it's true value (partly for political reasons) and Midland Metro line 1 opened about 5 years late and only half built. The plans for line 1 at the time had it running on street from Snow Hill, through the newly redeveloped Bull Ring (which in reality didn't open till after the Metro) and then on street to Chelmsley Wood.

 

[ianhr]

Stadtbahn's[/I] employed in many western German cities. If they ever get to justify routing the street-running central sections into a cut-and-cover tunnel with underground stations it could join the Tyne & Wear metro in England's equivalent to a pre metro/U-Stadbahn/metro leger.

I think that is what Manchester needs for the busiest routes, a fully segregated pre-Metro or Metro like Tyne & Wear. The Bury/Oldham and Altrincham/E. Didisbury lines should be joined by a subsurface section between Central & Victoria with a couple of intermediate stations. Ashton-Eccles is ok as street tramway but needs to be re-routed to a direct alignment between the City Centre and Eccles New Road.....forget about Salford Quays, that route is unfit for purpose and should be scrapped! Add another north-south street tramway from Middleton to Withington via the University and Wilmslow Road (the busiest bus corridor in Europe!), then Manchester would have the public transport infrastructure it deserves. The rest can be served by electrified suburban railways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that is what Manchester needs for the busiest routes, a fully segregated pre-Metro or Metro like Tyne & Wear. The Bury/Oldham and Altrincham/E. Didisbury lines should be joined by a subsurface section between Central & Victoria with a couple of intermediate stations. Ashton-Eccles is ok as street tramway but needs to be re-routed to a direct alignment between the City Centre and Eccles New Road.....forget about Salford Quays, that route is unfit for purpose and should be scrapped! Add another north-south street tramway from Middleton to Withington via the University and Wilmslow Road (the busiest bus corridor in Europe!), then Manchester would have the public transport infrastructure it deserves. The rest can be served by electrified suburban railways.

Would this rather detailed posting have been better placed upon a Manchester Metrolink thread rather than one that concerns the Edinburgh Trams ?

 

[Slugger Onions]

Back on topic:

The question I can't help asking is; Did Edinburgh really need a tramway full stop? (let alone the one line they actually built)

Were the already existing public transport systems not up to scratch? And if they weren't; was a new tramway the best option?

 

[jopsuk]

You'll find a large body of opinion that says there was no need for the tram. The Lothian Buses system is superb, and on the bits where it all falls down (the congested city centre) the trams will be street-running so it won't help there.

 

[edwin_m]

Edinburgh apparently has a population of 0.5m with heavy rail almost irrelevant for travel within the built-up area. Compare with Glasgow at 0.6m with frequent train services to most parts of the conurbation. A city of this size virtually anywhere else in Europe would have rail (train, metro or tram) service on its major internal routes, Leeds probably being the other main exception.

 

[Batman]

Edinburgh apparently has a population of 0.5m with heavy rail almost irrelevant for travel within the built-up area. Compare with Glasgow at 0.6m with frequent train services to most parts of the conurbation. A city of this size virtually anywhere else in Europe would have rail (train, metro or tram) service on its major internal routes, Leeds probably being the other main exception.

Leeds would be an ideal city to have a tram system. It's such a shame that the previous government pulled the plug on it.

It's also a shame that Bristol and South Gloucestershire councils couldn't bang their heads together to make a tram system work in Bristol.

Glasgow could also do with trams as well, although where about in the city they'd run to, I've no idea. Anyone got any ideas for that?

 

[Slugger Onions]

You'll find a large body of opinion that says there was no need for the tram. The Lothian Buses system is superb, and on the bits where it all falls down (the congested city centre) the trams will be street-running so it won't help there.

Seems like completely the wrong solution was selected.
Couldn't have they just organised lanes only for buses and taxis?

Edinburgh apparently has a population of 0.5m with heavy rail almost irrelevant for travel within the built-up area. Compare with Glasgow at 0.6m with frequent train services to most parts of the conurbation. A city of this size virtually anywhere else in Europe would have rail (train, metro or tram) service on its major internal routes, Leeds probably being the other main exception.

Just because every other city has rail doesn't mean that Edinburgh should as well, especially given the excellent bus service.

In any case; I can't help but notice that Edinburgh has heavy rail lines running through much of its urban area, along with several former rail alignments. Unfortunately those in service seem to run a loop, which I'm assuming isn't necessarily practical for a suburban rail system.
Still; it seems to me that utilising the existing heavy rail infrastructure seems like an obvious cost-effective starting point before thinking about light rail or a metro.

Glasgow could also do with trams as well, although where about in the city they'd run to, I've no idea. Anyone got any ideas for that?

I wouldn't have thought Glasgow would need trams with their buses and Subway?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think the major issue with relying upon heavy rail for Edinburgh's commuter network is that there is little extra capacity for a decent service.

Glasgow has the advantage that its surburban, regional and intercity rail networks do not conflict with one another too badly. The main electric surban services are the North Clyde and Argyll lines which have their own alignments in the city centre entirely operationally separate from the regional and intercity networks radiating from the high level stations. Apart from the Anniesland line, all services out of Queen Street are regional or intercity (where a local/suburban route is exemplified by the North Clyde) and Central has sufficient platform and throat capacity so that the south side electrics don't share too much with the regional or intercity there either.

Conversely, an Edinburgh network would rely heavily upon the existing two pairs of tracks through Haymarket and the pair eastwards to the ECML, as well as the same platforms at both major stations. As a result, the only way that additional local services can be delivered is to provide another pair of tracks and platforms in the city centre. Effectively that is what the tram does as for the most part it is nothing but a glorified light railway that follows the E&G main line out to Edinburgh Airport. The only street running section is between Haymarket and York Place, along with the future completion to Newhaven and the south-eastern line down to the Royal Infirmary. The proposed Granton branch will over the old railway alignment/cycle path with limited street running and there is a possibility that the South Suburban line could be run as a tram-train line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't have thought Glasgow would need trams with their buses and Subway?

Trams are a lot more likely than an expansion of the Subway network. Trams would be able to use some of the old abandoned railway alignments where provided, such as the tunnel underneath Great Western Road, or maybe even the old Bridgeton branch off the North Clyde abandoned after the Argyll Line reopened. Trams would be a relatively inexpensive solution to some of the public transport problems faced by the city - north/south connectivity is particularly poor compared to east-west and trams would also help link up areas divided by the motorways. I think though that the first step should still be for SPT or a Transport for Glasgow successor to control a re-regulated bus system.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The time for debate as to the need for this has to be honest long past. It will I am sure be a very contentious topic when newhaven/granton/RIE Extentions are back on the agenda however the present system needs to prove itself first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Am going out for the 05:00 xGyle on the 31st, staying with the set to the airport from the City Centre and return. Any other forum members joining me?

 

[kylemore]

The time for debate as to the need for this has to be honest long past. It will I am sure be a very contentious topic when newhaven/granton/RIE Extentions are back on the agenda however the present system needs to prove itself first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Am going out for the 05:00 xGyle on the 31st, staying with the set to the airport from the City Centre and return. Any other forum members joining me?

Bit early for me on a day off but good luck! Hopefully the Queue won't be too long and you get on - I wonder if they'll take reservations

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think the launch date and time has been planned very carefully so that there woant be too many flocking onto the first services. If they wanted hundreds boarding at every stop and Hundreds more lining the route then a workday at 8am would have been a more appropriate time to start running.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think the launch date and time has been planned very carefully so that there woant be too many flocking onto the first services. If they wanted hundreds boarding at every stop and Hundreds more lining the route then a workday at 8am would have been a more appropriate time to start running.

One Direction are at Murrayfield on June 3rd, so they won't have long to fix things if it does mess up! That will be one baptism of fire for the system.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the launch date and time has been planned very carefully so that there woant be too many flocking onto the first services. If they wanted hundreds boarding at every stop and Hundreds more lining the route then a workday at 8am would have been a more appropriate time to start running.

As far as I know all the tram routes have opened early in the morning at the start of a normal day's service - not sure if it is for this reason or just because the timetable says so.

 

[scotsman]

The time for debate as to the need for this has to be honest long past. It will I am sure be a very contentious topic when newhaven/granton/RIE Extentions are back on the agenda however the present system needs to prove itself first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Am going out for the 05:00 xGyle on the 31st, staying with the set to the airport from the City Centre and return. Any other forum members joining me?

I'll meet you there, provided I'm not working

 

[Batman]

One Direction are at Murrayfield on June 3rd, so they won't have long to fix things if it does mess up! That will be one baptism of fire for the system.

Yeah, cus a load of screaming teenage girls will turn out to be Edinburgh Trans biggest critic.