Electric Spine

[sprinterguy]

I think, like the Desiros, the Electrostars were designed with dual voltage in mind in any case.

What, incidentally, is this CP6? Is that when all this might take place, and if so, when is that?

CP6 = Control Period 6. Funnily enough, it follows Control Period 5 during which all the newly announced electrification projects are intended to be embarked on, between 2014 and 2019. The High Level Output Statement that details all of these electrification schemes covers the CP5 period. CP6 will run from 2019 to 2024.

 

[Wolfie]

I think, like the Desiros, the Electrostars were designed with dual voltage in mind in any case.

What, incidentally, is this CP6? Is that when all this might take place, and if so, when is that?

Re the Electrostars - absolutely correct!

Rather like to old Soviet Union the railways now operate under a series of five year plans. Those on the railways are known as Control Periods (hence CP). CP4 covers 2009–2014 (I believe but am not 100% certain, that this is in UK financial rather than calendar years, so Apr 09 to Mar 14) and the plans for CP5 were announced yesterday together with some early suggestions about what might be in CP6 which starts in Apr 19.

 

[jopsuk]

I think, like the Desiros, the Electrostars were designed with dual voltage in mind in any case.

Well yes, much of the Southern fleet is already fitted as they run across London onto the West Coast Main Line, and there's the 377/5 fleet currently on loan to FCC, which will become part of the super-franchise's fleet and be displaced by the new Thameslink stock. If they're desperate, there's also the possibility (before converting existing stock) of a transfer with Southeastern who have 375s (same thing as a 377) that have lugged around AC kit without ever using it in passenger service since the day they were delivered.

 

[The Ham]

If we're doing crystal ball stuff to CP6, what might wwe expect the next expansion of wires on the Southern (South West division) to be? further west to Weymouth? Creeping north on an assumption that the 455s.

Also, Basingstoke won't be the only changeover point in this round. Eastleigh and St Denys will have to be as well, and Southern are going to have make sure they're using DV stock into Southampton

My Guess would be Woking to Basingstoke, as with only 25 non railway crossing and several of these being either natural high or have been re-built in recent years. Likewise the signalling was re-done recently and with the footbridge at Farnborough station replaced last year, one would hope they designed for wires when they did these works. Which would mean limited works required to enable overhead cables.

It also means that a longer section of track is overhead wired but without having to convert the suburban trains (which terminate at Woking). It would also mean that the branches to Guildford/Portsmouth and Alton could then be added to the list.

Reading to Gatwick would be nice, but probably is down the list a bit when the tracks that it links to are being done as the GW franchise would be keen not to have to stable diesel trains at Reading in the future just for this route.

Southampton to Weymouth is likely especially if 110mph running is be possible.

Also possibly Southampton to Salisbury and back to Basingstoke as a diversionary route for freight and likewise routes to Westbury.

Otherwise I would expect to see the outer edges and more rural parts of the network being converted first until it starts to have a bearing on new rolling-stock ordering when whole lengths being done quickly.

 

[ole man]

Dont know if its been mentioned but the government are missing a big link here.
Electrify Stoke- Derby then we have a Crewe- Derby- London line fully electrified that could be used as a diversion when the WCML is closed or blocked.
Also that would improve the current service between Crewe- Derby which is tedious and to long considering the distance.
Also double track the missing link between North Stafford Jn and Barthomley Junc which is less than 3 miles

 

[HSTEd]

Does anyone know if that £500m budget includes the "Electric Spine" project or just for the Midland Main Line?
If it is just the Midland Main Line why is it so expensive? It is far above previous estimates.

 

[The Planner]

The reason that takes so long is nothing to do with electrification, that is linespeed. You don't get over 70mph along there if I recall. Also it would need re-signalling as most of it is absolute block with a big section between Caverswall and Uttoxeter. As for diverting from Crewe via Derby to London, where would the West Coast services be terminating ? it would take forever and even longer to recover from.

 

[jopsuk]

It also means that a longer section of track is overhead wired but without having to convert the suburban trains (which terminate at Woking). It would also mean that the branches to Guildford/Portsmouth and Alton could then be added to the list.

I wasn't quite sure where the 455s got to- the existing 458s have capacity to be converted (though the onces that are being made out of 460s may not as the 460s didn't, unless the modification is part of the rebuild plan).

Porstmouth would again require careful placement of changeover points- presumably Havant would be suitable, on the assumption that both the Direct and the line from Southampton would be done as a single project.

At Clapham is there sufficient seperation of lines to allow the South West division to go OHL (for Waterloo) whilst the Central division (for Victoria) remains 3rd rail?

And further ahead, assuming Central follows on from South Western, can the South Eastern side be left as 3rd rail whilst the Central goes wires?

 

[yorksrob]

Wow. This really does sound like the death knell for the Southern Region third rail system.

I wonder what sort of ceremony there'll be to mark the conversion of the final section.

 

[John55]

I wasn't quite sure where the 455s got to- the existing 458s have capacity to be converted (though the onces that are being made out of 460s may not as the 460s didn't, unless the modification is part of the rebuild plan).

Porstmouth would again require careful placement of changeover points- presumably Havant would be suitable, on the assumption that both the Direct and the line from Southampton would be done as a single project.

At Clapham is there sufficient seperation of lines to allow the South West division to go OHL (for Waterloo) whilst the Central division (for Victoria) remains 3rd rail?

And further ahead, assuming Central follows on from South Western, can the South Eastern side be left as 3rd rail whilst the Central goes wires?

Well it has been done before at Victoria!

 

[hwl]

I wasn't quite sure where the 455s got to- the existing 458s have capacity to be converted (though the onces that are being made out of 460s may not as the 460s didn't, unless the modification is part of the rebuild plan).

Porstmouth would again require careful placement of changeover points- presumably Havant would be suitable, on the assumption that both the Direct and the line from Southampton would be done as a single project.

At Clapham is there sufficient seperation of lines to allow the South West division to go OHL (for Waterloo) whilst the Central division (for Victoria) remains 3rd rail?

And further ahead, assuming Central follows on from South Western, can the South Eastern side be left as 3rd rail whilst the Central goes wires?

I suspect Southwestern would be done in many chunks with the windsor lines left till last?
Central (Southern) has plenty of tunnels and low bridges so would needs lots of expensive civils first despite having lots of dual voltage units so southeastern may make more sense as HS1 Thameslink and Crossrail interact.

The key is when the substation etc need to be replaced or upgraded and the 3rd rail only units are life expired at 40+ years ([442], 455, 456, 465, 466).
The Uckfield line for example on southern is listed for 10 coach platform lenghtening so this might be the first piece meal AC electrification on southern's core network as they will have plenty of ex TL 377/5s at some point.

 

[John55]

Wow. This really does sound like the death knell for the Southern Region third rail system.

I wonder what sort of ceremony there'll be to mark the conversion of the final section.

I expect anyone present on the 22nd September 1929 believed they were seeing the end of high voltage AC overhead electrification on the Southern. It looks as though they were wrong! There was no ceremony then as far as I can tell.

 

[AndyLandy]

I'd heard that AC wiring of the South was likely to happen sooner or later. I guess this is the 'start of the end' for 3rd rail.

Regarding the Southampton end, I believe dual voltage would only need to run through Civic Centre tunnel to Northam train depot. AFAIK, the line is quad-tracked from there to St. Deny's, so the SWML and the West Coastway/Portsmouth lines are separate.

Oh, and what is a "HOOP train"? I've never heard that term before and Google isn't very forthcoming...

 

[Schnellzug]

.

Oh, and what is a "HOOP train"? I've never heard that term before and Google isn't very forthcoming...

I'mguessing it's something to do with engineering; like the High Output Ballast Train thing. High Output Overhead Something, I'd guess.

 

[hwl]

I'd heard that AC wiring of the South was likely to happen sooner or later. I guess this is the 'start of the end' for 3rd rail.

Regarding the Southampton end, I believe dual voltage would only need to run through Civic Centre tunnel to Northam train depot. AFAIK, the line is quad-tracked from there to St. Deny's, so the SWML and the West Coastway/Portsmouth lines are separate.

Oh, and what is a "HOOP train"? I've never heard that term before and Google isn't very forthcoming...

Automated electrification train (or actual trains)

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/electrification-train.aspx

"The special train will work overnight at a significantly higher rate of construction than previously possible, electrifying an average of 1.6km of track per night. It will also allow the adjacent line to remain open, minimising disruption as well as reducing the overall time needed for the work.

Costing around £35m, the train is part of our continued investment to deliver a better, safer and more reliable railway. Windhoff Bahn- und Anlagentechnik GmbH, a supplier of specialist rail maintenance and improvement equipment, will custom build the train to a design that meets the performance specification developed by our engineers."

 

[swt_passenger]

I wasn't quite sure where the 455s got to- the existing 458s have capacity to be converted (though the onces that are being made out of 460s may not as the 460s didn't, unless the modification is part of the rebuild plan).

The timescales for this reaching Waterloo are probably measured in decades, so well outside the lifetime of the 455s, and the 458s could probably see out their lives without conversion anyway, as it is just as possible that main and Windsor sides of the SW division would be done separately.

At Clapham is there sufficient seperation of lines to allow the South West division to go OHL (for Waterloo) whilst the Central division (for Victoria) remains 3rd rail?

The SN and SWT lines are not connected [1] anywhere immediately northeast of Clapham Jn - running AC and DC alongside each other as parallel railways is commonplace already, eg on the NLL/ELL overlap, and of course on various LU/NR parallel routes, such as out to Upminster.

[1] The various connecting lines underneath the main formation asociated with the WLL are a slightly different issue - and ultimately they'd probably be where AC/DC changeover points might be needed.

 

[Trog]

If it was going to happen, it would have been done as part of the WCML upgrade.

It was they took out the intersection bridge and installed a box culvert instead.

 

[The Planner]

But that is all they did, I can't see where the traffic would come from. Passenger would mean avoiding Nuneaton and there is little in the way of freight flows.

 

[David Dunning]

For someone who went to secondary school in southampton by train in the late 70s the thought of that area getting Overheads is still quite amazing . So , because I had far too much time on my hands and an old copy of trainz2006 i thought hmmmm what would a cab ride look like post 2019 .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ETIMdsUBw0
Yes I know . Dont take it too seriously

 

[jopsuk]

The SN and SWT lines are not connected [1] anywhere immediately northeast of Clapham Jn - running AC and DC alongside each other as parallel railways is commonplace already, eg on the NLL/ELL overlap, and of course on various LU/NR parallel routes, such as out to Upminster. ]

I thought this might be the case

 

[rickerby1]

I think it highly unlikely Basingstoke to Southampton will retain 750V. Apart from the technical difficulties associated with return currents etc, the cost of maintaining the distribution equipment associated with the third rail would be enourmous, not to mention the ongoing losses associated with low voltage DC. The 444s etc that run between London and the South Coast are part of the Siemens Desiro family. They are all but identical to the class 350 dual voltage units used by London Midland or indeed the 185 Diesels used by Transpennine. Adding a transformer and pantograph to effectively turn them into 350s will be a piece of cake. With regards the apparent gaps between Sheffield and Doncaster/Leeds, remember this was an announcement for works due to take place during control period 5 between 2014 and 2019. Only so much can be physically done in a 5 year period. No doubt an announcement will come sometime in 2017 that these "gaps" will be filled in control period 6 to keep the electrification programme rolling.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The 444s etc that run between London and the South Coast are part of the Siemens Desiro family. They are all but identical to the class 350 dual voltage units used by London Midland or indeed the 185 Diesels used by Transpennine.

Pedant hat on...
Technically all but identical, but the three versions you mention, 444, 350 and 185, each have different bodyshell designs (different body lengths; different type and position of doors; different window arrangements, different ends).

The class 350 is an AC class 450. The original batch of 350's were in fact ordered as SWT 450's, but before they were delivered, the then SRA had them diverted to the WCML as 350's.

Pedant hat off !
Sorry for that.

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if, post wiring, services will change whilst on the move (though at lowish speed) through Basingstoke, or if it is going to see an increase in express services stopping there as every non-stop service adds a call?

 

[Pumbaa]

No reason they can't - every day services change over at 20mph at Mitre Bridge on the WLL in both directions.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if, post wiring, services will change whilst on the move (though at lowish speed) through Basingstoke, or if it is going to see an increase in express services stopping there as every non-stop service adds a call?

We've already covered this in another thread, but offpeak there is only one Weymouth train non stops each hour. (Also one additional non stopper in the peak flow direction.) So it's basically one non-stop out of 7 or 8 through per hour including XC.

It really depends if having a much longer AC/DC overlap is cost effective for what is a relative minority of non-stop trains.

 

[MarkyT]

I wonder if, post wiring, services will change whilst on the move (though at lowish speed) through Basingstoke, or if it is going to see an increase in express services stopping there as every non-stop service adds a call?

When Eurostars were fitted with DC pickups for running over classic lines on the South Eastern, they had automatic changeover at speed, triggered by trackside transponders, at first at Dollands Moor, then on the connecting line to the first stage of HS1. I don't know if the 92s are or were fitted with the same system, but as far as I know all tunnel freight has to stop in Dollands Moor yard where the changeover can be accomplished at a stand, if there are any though loco workings at the moment. So there's no reason why a method cannot be devised for switching at speed through Basingstoke and approaching Southampton from the west. If a wider rolling programme of 3rd rail conversion was embarked upon, such a solution would seem to be essential.

 

[The Ham]

We've already covered this in another thread, but offpeak there is only one Weymouth train non stops each hour. (Also one additional non stopper in the peak flow direction.) So it's basically one non-stop out of 7 or 8 through per hour including XC.

It really depends if having a much longer AC/DC overlap is cost effective for what is a relative minority of non-stop trains.

It is likely (to remove the need for all trains terminating at Basingstoke to be duel power from day one and for them to switch power on the approach/departure from the station) that the 3rd rail will remain in place over at least the length of the platforms and possibly to all the existing sidings to the West, this added to the fact the junction to Reading is a little to the East of the station would mean at least a good few hundred meters of overlap.

Therefore, bearing in mind that the non stop trains slow from their maximum speed to pass through Basingstoke at present anyway, the delay (even if they had to slow down further) would be minimal.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Therefore, bearing in mind that the non stop trains slow from their maximum speed to pass through Basingstoke at present anyway, the delay (even if they had to slow down further) would be minimal.

As far as I can judge from the 2009 Sectional Appendix, the speed limit through Basingstoke is 65mph except on the Up Fast (P3) which stays at 90.
The 65 limits go back to 90 immediately after the station platforms.

 

[rickerby1]

During control period 5 Network Rail will have Electrified around 700 route miles and considerably more track miles. Assuming that the industry is geared up for this level of production, during control period 6 we could see the gaps between Sheffield and Leeds/Doncaster wired, Derby-Birmingham, Birmingham to Bristol, Bristol to Exeter and the Western link to the GWML via Kemble and Newbury to Taunton to link up with the Bristol Exeter Electrification. There would still be enough "miles" left to get an Electrifed connection from the East Anglian ports to the ECML and WCML. In control period 7 whatevers left can be done!

 

[philjo]

Having the wires up at Basingstoke suggests that one of the logical next extensions would be to Salisbury & remove some diesels from Waterloo.
Presumably also allows for some diversions via Reading & Staines if the line via Woking is unavailable. (though obviously limited in number due to having to go through Reading station & connect onto the 3rd rail lines)