Electric Trains minus the Infrastructure

[snowball]

Wikipedia on inductive charging:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging

 

[MarkyT]

There is a battery train in operation in Japan, the EV-E301 series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV-E301_series

The Wikipedia article claims one train in service so far but further units should be able to replace all existing DMUs on the Karasuyama branch, which although un-electrified itself, is served by some trains running over the electrified Tōhoku Main Line from Utsunomiya Station. The battery train can recharge whilst running under the wires on the main line or at a charging point at the branch terminus, a short section of catenary in the platform with a local power supply.

 

[kermit]

The Scottish Government could surely gain a major coup by running an updated BMU on the new Borders Railway?

 

[Muzer]

I just find it amusing that this thread that includes "minus the infrastructure" in the title is posted in the infrastructure subforum

 

[Taunton]

No mention of any clockwork options. I know it probably sounds ludicrous but could it actually work ? .

There's a large fleet of these in service. What was the transmission manufacturer's name........? Something like "Hornby".

The most common Delay Attribution Code for them is "Lost Key".

 

[yorksrob]

Could be a definate winner. Mind you, perhaps they could start by developing a phone battery that lasts a whole day !

 

[Taunton]

Don't know about Liverpool but several tramways had a stud contact system. A magnet under the tram would operate some kind of switch under each stud to energise it, and it would drop back after the tram had gone (or sometimes not, much to the discomfort of the local horses).

There are two modern systems that do roughly the same thing in more advanced ways, produced by Alstom and Ansaldo.

The universal issue with these systems, whether 100 years ago or today, is they cannot be made wholly reliable and the contact point in the roadway risks remaining live despite every safety precaution the engineers could think up - and of course, with umpteen safety interlocks reliability goes down.

 

[rebmcr]

No mention of any clockwork options. I know it probably sounds ludicrous but could it actually work ? With resources becoming limited apart from the increasing number of people it would be a good way to employ the idle time of many as winders to wind up the mainsprings. It would solve the unemployment problem and help the fitness of the nation if the mainspring winders were designed on the lines of exercise machines. Three problems solved in one - reduce unemployment, improve the nation's health and provide a cheap, green transport solution.

The Class 139 'Parry People Mover' is essentially a clockwork unit, albeit with an internal combustion engine to wind it up.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

There's an article and picture on page 39 of the current (October) Railway Magazine about the former Balleter branch battery-electric unit in preservation on the Royal Deeside Railway in Scotland. It is used currently as hauled coaching stock, as the traction equipment isn't working, but the preservation society has a long-term plan to restore it to working order.

 

[edwin_m]

The Class 139 'Parry People Mover' is essentially a clockwork unit, albeit with an internal combustion engine to wind it up, and an electric transmission.

Surely mechanical transmission via a variator? I thought Parry didn't do electrickery.

 

[IanXC]

I hesitate to mention more buses... York has a park and ride route run entirely by electric buses:

Two short charge power points were installed at the Poppleton Bar site, designed to give vehicles a quick boost while in service. Installed at First’s depot are facilities enabling the buses to be charged overnight, giving them an 80 to 90 mile range (depending on operating conditions). According to Nigel, this range has proved sufficient in service so far.

http://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/ele...operating-six-optare-versa-evs-new-park-ride/

And in fact a retrofitted 15 year old open top tour bus! http://www.airqualitynews.com/2014/09/05/york-in-first-with-bus-converted-to-electric-power/

 

[rebmcr]

Surely mechanical transmission via a variator? I thought Parry didn't do electrickery.

Of course. It's not a Class 239 after all!

 

[thenorthern]

Just thinking about the batteries alone the amount of acid required to run them would be massive which itself presents a potential hazard but I was once at the Centre for Alternative Technology where they have a battery room and they said the only way they could afford all those batteries was because there was a nuclear submarine being decommissioned and they bought them second hand otherwise the cost would be prohibitive. I think financially overhead electrification is still by far the most cost effective way for inter-city trains.

 

[contrex]

they said the only way they could afford all those batteries was because there was a nuclear submarine being decommissioned and they bought them second hand otherwise the cost would be prohibitive.

Are you sure it wasn't a Diesel-electric submarine? They are more common than nuclear, and have huge battery banks.

 

[thenorthern]

Are you sure it wasn't a Diesel-electric submarine? They are more common than nuclear, and have huge battery banks.

It might have been I know it was a former Royal Navy one, its rather ironic promoting green non-nuclear energy by using equipment from former submarines that could otherwise not be afforded.

 

[edwin_m]

Just thinking about the batteries alone the amount of acid required to run them would be massive

Newer types of battery don't use lead and acid but some of them are pretty nasty nevertheless. Lithium batteries have an occasional tendency to burst into flames and of course the battery represents a store of energy that under certain circumstances could be released quickly and in the wrong place. For this reason there might be concerns about battery trains in underground stations for example.

 

[thenorthern]

The North Staffordshire Railway had a battery shunter that is now at York.

There has been the battery technology for running trains for years but the one thing is you can't beat the power and performance of the internal combustion engine as well as its "recharge" is just simply a fill up with fuel compared to the time it takes to charge a battery.

 

[mainframe444]

Indeed and presumably Network Rail are not doing this for entertainment value, aren't they looking for a range of about 40 miles.

So maybe you could have a battery electric for instance that did Cardiff to Maesteg without the need to electrify the Maesteg branch, just put a short section at the end of the line in case the juice gets low.

379013 is currently undergoing trials at Old Dalby, for performance and endurance.

It is capable of running off the overhead or batteries. Whilst in AC mode, the traction batteries are charged.

It has already managed 100mph in Battery Mode!

MF

 

[apk55]

Despite much research I do not see any radical improvment in battery technology, particularily in terms of power to weight ratio. Therefore pure battery units are only going to be for short range operation. Most batteries do not like fast charging which means that the unit is going to be stationary for long periods or be bi-mode recharging the battery while running on an electrified line. And many short lines off an electrified line could be probably be easily electrifed (such as Windermere Branch).

I think hybrid technology is one way forward combinding a diesel engine with an energy store, which could be battery, Supercapacitor or flywheel. There are two approaches posible

1/ Large engine and small energy store. The energy store would assist the engine when starting and running and absorb braking energy. The engine could be switched off for periods of light load. This technology would be ideal for lines where long distance and fast running is required, such as Settle Carlisle and Highland lines.

2/ Small engine and large energy store (Range Extended Battery) Basicaly a battery unit with a small (30KW per car?) engine fitted. This would be ideal for lines with a relativly slow and frequent stopping service, such as Central Wales, Cambrian and Cumbrian coast lines. On many of these services a normal DMU probably spends more time idleing than on load and only part of this time on load on full throttle, so the duty factor might only be 10% to 20%, so as long as the energy store could cope with a few station stops the engine would only have to supply the average load.

 

[HSTEd]

The energy consumption fo a train per unit mass is surprisingly low.

You can get significant range out of batteries of comparable weight to the fuel tanks and engines in DMU stock.

 

[broadgage]

Yes, trains are more efficient than road vehicles, therefore battery power is more viable for trains than for road vehicles.
As posted by others, a battery powered train is undergoing trials at present.

I can for see more use of this technology for routes that are largely electrified but have short sections that cant be readily electrified due to limited clearances, historic buildings, or extreme weather exposure.

I read somewhere, but can not substantiate, that about 50 miles per charge is regarded as about the sensible limit. Much greater distances are possible with a bigger battery, but the cost, weight, and bulk of the battery makes diesel power or electrification a better option for longer ranges.

There must be many relatively short non electrified branches that could be served by battery powered trains, these being charged when on the electrified main line.

 

[HSTEd]

Two tonnes of batteries per vehicle is not impractical - indeed once you include engines and fuel tankage on a modern unit that is not far from the existing total for propulsion equipment.

The BEMU had 17t of batteries for a two-car set.
17t of lithium ion batteries would give rather..... enormous range. (17000kg would be 4500kWh of capacity - which translates to a theoretical range on a Cl357 style stopping pattern of roughly 1000km).

Coupled with recent developments in medium frequency resonant transformers that will cut the transformer mass by two thirds an electric unit that recharges under 25kV is not impossible.
Indeed it would be even easier to engineer if you were to make a battery-third rail unit since the converter would not require a giant transformer.

 

[AM9]

Indeed it would be even easier to engineer if you were to make a battery-third rail unit since the converter would not require a giant transformer.

Would a battery-assisted EMU be a viable way of increasing the low supply capacity on a long DC route like Bournemouth to Weymouth?
If the charge current was constantly available, the peak demand (which is normally only required for bringing the unit up to high speeds or climbing gradients), could be reduced and line voltage maintained with more/longer trains in the section. Weight could be saved by having a lower power continuously rated converter/charger.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think that the Southport Pier tram is battery operated.

http://www.train-photos.com/picture/number19284.asp

That's a reasonably sized passenger vehicle - if not for longer distance and faster services then would town tramway systems be feasible ?

 

[HSTEd]

Problem is trams can't carry anythhing like the same mass of batteries and retain acceptable performance.

They have to be far faster off the mark and accelerating up to speed.

 

[duffield]

There is a battery train in operation in Japan, the EV-E301 series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV-E301_series

The Wikipedia article claims one train in service so far but further units should be able to replace all existing DMUs on the Karasuyama branch, which although un-electrified itself, is served by some trains running over the electrified Tōhoku Main Line from Utsunomiya Station. The battery train can recharge whilst running under the wires on the main line or at a charging point at the branch terminus, a short section of catenary in the platform with a local power supply.

This type of system would be pretty much ideal for the Ambergate-Matlock branch once Derby to Sheffield is electrified.

 

[59CosG95]

This type of system would be pretty much ideal for the Ambergate-Matlock branch once Derby to Sheffield is electrified.

And the many Cornish branches, should the wires ever get down that far south!


They could be trialled on the Uckfield line in service as well.

 

[paul1609]

And the many Cornish branches, should the wires ever get down that far south!


They could be trialled on the Uckfield line in service as well.

Apparently the 379 has been discounted from either of the Southern lines Hurst Green to Uckfield and back is outside the battery range and a much longer layover at Ashford would be required meaning extra stock.

 

[thenorthern]

This type of system would be pretty much ideal for the Ambergate-Matlock branch once Derby to Sheffield is electrified.

Only issue would be changing from the two as Ambergate isn't on the mainline.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I travelled on some hybrid buses in Oxford on Saturday. The engine cutting out seemed weird especailly when it cut out at a bus stop and then the vehicle pulled away with no engine running. The technology seems to be getting there but I think we are still some way away from high speed battery trains - and even further from high speed clockwork ones.