Electrification, is it the biggest cause for delays other than theft ?

[Nash]

obviously on the O/H lines i am on about, they seem to fail so easily and regularly why do people want them spread over more lines ?

 

[transportphoto]

People also seem to forget exactly how long overhead wires survive between maintenance, how many trains they see through etc.. Any system will have its flaws and wear and tear is expected. They take a lot to 'fail', they aren't easy to destroy 'cause otherwise they'd be down after every train.

TP

 

[RichmondCommu]

People also seem to forget exactly how long overhead wires survive between maintenance, how many trains they see through etc.. Any system will have its flaws and wear and tear is expected. They take a lot to 'fail', they aren't easy to destroy 'cause otherwise they'd be down after every train.

TP

Well exactly, the benefits certainly outweigh the negatives. Hence the WCML renaissance.

 

[scotraildriver]

Polititians like it because it is seen to be "green" BUT, as a driver who works both diesel and electric trains, the electrics cause ALOT more bother. A comparison from last winter:

2 trees come down, 1 onto OHLE, the other onto a diesel (non electric) line. The diesel route is reopened in 2 hours after chainsaw Charlie (Network rail)cuts up the tree. The electric route is shut for a week to allow the overhead to be repaired. Hmmmmm

 

[RichmondCommu]

Polititians like it because it is seen to be "green" BUT, as a driver who works both diesel and electric trains, the electrics cause ALOT more bother. A comparison from last winter:

2 trees come down, 1 onto OHLE, the other onto a diesel (non electric) line. The diesel route is reopened in 2 hours after chainsaw Charlie (Network rail)cuts up the tree. The electric route is shut for a week to allow the overhead to be repaired. Hmmmmm

Yes but trees don't come down every day do they? Or indeed every week. And is the electric route really shut for a whole week?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thats one example, fleet reliability and capacity usually throw rare events like that out of the water.

Easiest way of dealing with it is to chop the trees down which network rail seem to be getting keener to do.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Electric traction spends less time on the depot than diesel. How many trains are there which could run if they were electric but don't run because they are out of service for refuelling? Or the extra maintenance that comes with diesels?
We tend not to notice these kinds of things because they don't generate headlines, but it's no coincidence that the lines with the fastest trains or the most frequent service tend to be worked by electric traction.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Easiest way of dealing with it is to chop the trees down which network rail seem to be getting keener to do.

But won't that cause embankments to start slipping?

 

[NSEFAN]

But won't that cause embankments to start slipping?

I understand that trees aren't actually that important, infact they can make slippage worse in some cases.

The olden days of BR saw much more stringent cutting back of vegetation due to problems with leaves on the line, so perhaps the modern railway is learning from this.

 

[YorkshireBear]

But won't that cause embankments to start slipping?

Short answer no. Long answer is a bit more complex and i do not fully understand. Vegetation does just as good a job and this wont fall and rip down overhead wires.

 

[ainsworth74]

The olden days of BR saw much more stringent cutting back of vegetation due to problems with leaves on the line, so perhaps the modern railway is learning from this.

BR were no saints when it came to lineside vegetation. The rot, as it were, set in on this issue once steam left regular service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Short answer no. Long answer is a bit more complex and i do not fully understand. Vegetation does just as good a job and this wont fall and rip down overhead wires.

But if you chop down the tree don't you end up killing the roots?

 

[Flywaver]

But if you chop down the tree don't you end up killing the roots?

Yes you are killing the roots.Initially Network Rail won't notice for a while but it will be horrendous once it all starts...As a Driver i am glad I'm off Electrics..Hampered by all sorts of conditions. Wind,Heat snow.... Speed restrictions.. In the Fens the gantries have been sinking on the Ely-Lynn route and they are re-electrifying with newer design masts..It's only as clean as the Power stations...

 

[Bald Rick]

obviously on the O/H lines i am on about, they seem to fail so easily and regularly why do people want them spread over more lines ?

Back to the question.

No it isn't and neither is cable theft. Indeed neither are anywhere near the top.

 

[fireftrm]

But if you chop down the tree don't you end up killing the roots?

Yes, but that is the point. The roots are often the problem, through the damage they can cause by pushing the ground. You must have seen pavements ruined this way. Then there is the water take up by trees,this causes major ground changes, in dry weather the extraction can cause massive contraction and the subsequent cycling of the cutting/embankment sides is extremely serious. The problem of ground movement us then exacerbated by the weight if the tree and its movement too, they do move in wind! When you see landslip repairs (look for roadside ones, as you may be in a position to see more of them) you will see they sow grass, as it binds the soil surface.

Of course dead roots no longer take up water, or are connected to the lever of a moving trunk, so can help soil stability as they are now rods through the ground.

 

[Julia]

It's been a while since I last borrowed my father-in-law's Modern Railways, but I seem to remember that the miles-per-casualty for electric units are an order of magnitude higher than for diesel ones...

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's been a while since I last borrowed my father-in-law's Modern Railways, but I seem to remember that the miles-per-casualty for electric units are an order of magnitude higher than for diesel ones...

They are. Easily especially pacers and 150s.

In relation to trees fireftrm covered that petfectly.

 

[Nash]

Back to the question.

No it isn't and neither is cable theft. Indeed neither are anywhere near the top.

I am new to the railway so can you list what is highest cause of delays please

 

[ushawk]

I am new to the railway so can you list what is highest cause of delays please

Things to do with the signalling would be the highest cause, either track circuit problems, points failures or actual signals just breaking.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Things to do with the signalling would be the highest cause, either track circuit problems, points failures or actual signals just breaking.

Then probably followed by rolling stock failures then trespassing.

 

[LE Greys]

They are. Easily especially pacers and 150s.

In relation to trees fireftrm covered that petfectly.

And from what I understand, electric traction requires simpler maintenance and is cheaper to run. It comes from having fewer moving parts, especially when compared to diesel-electric traction. The weak points with the wires can be resolved, it comes from certain parts on certain lines (especially around Huntingdon) not being strong enough. The 1960s designs were probably over-engineered, so later BR designs over-corrected for that and under-engineered them, and they have now corrected back.

 

[MK Tom]

Isn't this thread a complete duplicate of one we had a week or two ago? I remember making the point about diesels causing delays with breakdowns and track wear and all that in that one.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Isn't this thread a complete duplicate of one we had a week or two ago? I remember making the point about diesels causing delays with breakdowns and track wear and all that in that one.

Not exactly it was mentioned in the 'Wires down at Wolverton Thread'

 

[Oswyntail]

Things to do with the signalling would be the highest cause, either track circuit problems, points failures or actual signals just breaking.

OMG, that is awful.:roll: Surely the simplest answer is to do away with signalling altogether and points and track circuits. Oh my!

 

[HSTEd]

And from what I understand, electric traction requires simpler maintenance and is cheaper to run. It comes from having fewer moving parts, especially when compared to diesel-electric traction. The weak points with the wires can be resolved, it comes from certain parts on certain lines (especially around Huntingdon) not being strong enough. The 1960s designs were probably over-engineered, so later BR designs over-corrected for that and under-engineered them, and they have now corrected back.

Not completely, late BR designs were designed based on benefit cost analyses that assigned less value to avoiding delays.
This meant they were engineered to a lower "standard".

I believe BR were likely willing to accept comparable delays for electric operations as they accepted for diesel operations in an attempt to get the maximum possible operating cost benefits from the electrification. (ie. reduce the total subsidy they needed, as demanded by the treasury).

 

[broadgage]

Busy main lines will have to be electrified ultimatly due to the rising cost of diesel fuel.
In the near term though I have serious misgivings about electrification due to the large scale delays caused by failures, with main lines closed all day or even for several days.

Diesel trains are of course also subject to breakdown, but the effects of a broken diesel are usually less serious.
A failed diesel train can usually be hauled or propelled by another train, or by a rescue locomotive. An HST or DMU can usually proceed at reduced performance if one engine fails.
Passengers affected can usually complete their journey either in the delayed failed train or on the next service.
A failed diesel train is unlikely to block other lines on a muti track route.

When the OHLE falls down, as seems to be regretably common, it can lead to the closure off all lines for an extended period, there being no question of continueing on a following service if the line is closed for the rest of the day.

I for one do not look forward to the coming electrification of parts of the Great Western. I forsee years of disruption with no effective service at holiday weekends, and Monday morning problems when the work over runs.
Parts of the South West are very exposed to bad weather, and the wires will no doubt come down in windy weather, and the masts be displaced by landslips in wet weather.
And of course electrification means new trains with high density airline style seating and no restaurant and limited luggage space.
And yes I know that the interior layout of the new trains has yet to be decided, but previous generations of new trains do not fill me with confidence.
Indeed did not a respected member of thse forums state "you cant expect new trains to have 1950s seat spacing" or words to that effect.
The cramped layout of modern trains is not of course a direct result of electric traction, but will be a side effect.

 

[Widnes Planner]

I would suspect that cable theft and OHLE are causes of some of the largest delays, rather than being the largest causes of delay...

 

[Old Hill Bank]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81348 See this thread if you think electrification is so good!

 

[HSTEd]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81348 See this thread if you think electrification is so good!

The fact is that OHLE problems are so rare that they make the news every time one happens.

Do we get huge threads about every single diesel failure?

 

[YorkshireBear]

The fact is that OHLE problems are so rare that they make the news every time one happens.

Do we get huge threads about every single diesel failure?

Its an extension of the logic that people say trains are more unsafe than cars.... so yes i agree