EMR Class 170 updates

[Wolfie]

As with some of their 156s, the 158s could easily go to Northern or GWR to replace or supplement their elderly 150s. It won’t be too hard to shuffle the 158s around...

In general 158s are not a good 150 replacement.

 

[LowLevel]

June's edition of Modern Railways suggests that EMR will operate Liverpool to Nottingham with 5-car 158 formations.

OK if they're willing to splash the cash on totally rebuilding the air conditioning and other systems on a 30 year old trains fleet and it's good that generally speaking 158s need guards on a personal level. I had heard the 158s were in line for some density reduction work. I bet they won't though and we will be left cooking for several more years to come.

 

[43102EMR]

I agree that it might be a good idea to bring in newer units. However:

• EMR crew and maintenance are already familiar with class 158s
• Class 185s are heavy and expensive to run, and I don't think there are quite enough to run all Liverpool-Nottingham trains as double units? (15 going off-lease?)
• There are too many class 175s (unless the whole fleet is taken on to cover for the lack of Southern class 170s (although that seems it might be covered by TfW's class 170 fleet)), so splitting the fleet will irritate my OCD (likewise with class 185s!)

Bare in mind that the 185s are maintained by Siemens at Ardwick (Manchester) which is a convenient location to operate the route considering it passes through Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Regardless of whether EMR are taking up the lease of the 185s or not, it will still expire relatively soon now that the new rolling stock is in service and the 15 units will either move elsewhere or return to Eversholt. Not to mention EMR operate the Class 360s from the same family/manufacturer (albeit they’re EMUs).

Considering there’s 26 158s in EMR’s fleet and nearly half are required for Liverpool - Norwich services at present, I don’t think they’ll need to worry about stock shortfalls if the 185s move over. I doubt the 175s will move over tbh.

In general 158s are not a good 150 replacement.

Considering GWR and Northern have placed most of them on 150 services recently, I strongly disagree...

 

[43096]

Class 185s are heavy and expensive to run, and I don't think there are quite enough to run all Liverpool-Nottingham trains as double units? (15 going off-lease?)

Liverpool-Nottingham would require six circuits of two sets each. So the requirement would be 12 sets in traffic, for which 15 units is more than sufficient to cover maintenance needs.

 

[ABB125]

Liverpool-Nottingham would require six circuits of two sets each. So the requirement would be 12 sets in traffic, for which 15 units is more than sufficient to cover maintenance needs.

For some reason I thought it was 8 circuits! To be fair, it was over a year ago that I did the calculations, and a 6 does look similar to an 8!

 

[Failed Unit]

Going back on topic. The EMR seat finder has had some updates. Although still hard to tell what are 170s. Guess 196 seats is the 3 car 170

 

[TheBigD]

Going back on topic. The EMR seat finder has had some updates. Although still hard to tell what are 170s. Guess 196 seats is the 3 car 170

The 196 figure aligns with a 3 car 170/6 in their original layout (Central Trains and then London Midland).
The 3 car 170/4 that EMR have 5 of (ex ScotRail) have a different layout and less seats
(I think it's 186 but not 100% sure).

OK if they're willing to splash the cash on totally rebuilding the air conditioning and other systems on a 30 year old trains fleet and it's good that generally speaking 158s need guards on a personal level. I had heard the 158s were in line for some density reduction work. I bet they won't though and we will be left cooking for several more years to come.

By density reduction work I hope that also means more luggage stacks. The EMR 158s are particularly poor in that regard.

 

[59CosG95]

Just because I can't find anything related to allocation on here - where are the EMR 170s being allocated?

 

[43102EMR]

Just because I can't find anything related to allocation on here - where are the EMR 170s being allocated?

Nearly all regional services apart from Liverpool - Norwich and Barton - Cleethorpes.

 

[59CosG95]

Nearly all regional services apart from Liverpool - Norwich and Barton - Cleethorpes.

Thanks! I did mean depot allocation rather than service though...

 

[43102EMR]

Thanks! I did mean depot allocation rather than service though...

Ahh no worries! Allocated to Nottingham Eastcroft and Derby Etches Park.

 

[43096]

Ahh no worries! Allocated to Nottingham Eastcroft and Derby Etches Park.

More specifically, they are all Etches Park based except 170515, which is Eastcroft.

 

[cactustwirly]

More specifically, they are all Etches Park based except 170515, which is Eastcroft.

Interesting, I'd have thought it would have been logical to base them all at Etches Park, as they'll be doing all the heavy maintenance anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

Interesting, I'd have thought it would have been logical to base them all at Etches Park, as they'll be doing all the heavy maintenance anyway.

Routine maintenance is split between the two - Eastcroft do B exams although the unit has to visit Etches Park for underframe and bog cleaning first, it then gets tripped back to Nottingham with the toilet locked out for the exam. For whatever reason class 153 and 158 have always been allocated to Eastcroft and 156 to Etches Park since they switched from Tyseley.

 

[cactustwirly]

Routine maintenance is split between the two - Eastcroft do B exams although the unit has to visit Etches Park for underframe and bog cleaning first, it then gets tripped back to Nottingham with the toilet locked out for the exam. For whatever reason class 153 and 158 have always been allocated to Eastcroft and 156 to Etches Park since they switched from Tyseley.

I was under the impression that Eastcroft was only stabling and light maintenance, and the heavy stuff was done at Derby?

 

[bunnahabhain]

I was under the impression that Eastcroft was only stabling and light maintenance, and the heavy stuff was done at Derby?

Eastcroft carries out the major exams on the 153 and 158 fleet, it does more than light maintenance.

 

[LowLevel]

I was under the impression that Eastcroft was only stabling and light maintenance, and the heavy stuff was done at Derby?

Nah. Properly heavy work like collision damage is done at Etches Park as they have the facilities for it, but Eastcroft does the usual range of exams. Light Maintenance Depot in the name is a bit of misnomer - they do a range of work on the 15x and 170 fleet, though the space and facilities are more limited than at Etches Park.

 

[Impey0711]

Had a nice surprise last Wednesday had 170530 turn up at Syston on the 19:15 to Leicester was expecting it to be a 158 having come from grimsby

 

[43055]

Had a nice surprise last Wednesday had 170530 turn up at Syston on the 19:15 to Leicester was expecting it to be a 158 having come from grimsby

I believe that one is a booked 170 diagram. There may be another 170 diagram on the Leicester - Grimsby route as well on weekdays.

Looks like one more coming back from repaint on Monday: Realtime Trains - 5N87 1018 Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) to Etches Park Sdgs

And possibly a two car unit from Wales soon if this is true: cerij101 on Twitter: "@vaughangething why is @tfwrail getting rid of its Class 170 trains less than 2 years after getting them? With the Pacers gone it seems an odd decision?" / Twitter

 

[LowLevel]

170273 is already at Etches Park.

 

[43102EMR]

170273 is already at Etches Park.

Has it entered service yet? Been there a couple of weeks I believe...

 

[LowLevel]

Has it entered service yet? Been there a couple of weeks I believe...

Not yet.

 

[Failed Unit]

Was on 170530 on 1439 Grimsby - Leicester yesterday. A 156 operated the 1239. Not sure if they are fixed diagrams or random unit generator results.

 

[LowLevel]

Was on 170530 on 1439 Grimsby - Leicester yesterday. A 156 operated the 1239. Not sure if they are fixed diagrams or random unit generator results.

There are fixed 170 diagrams but not all of them are 170 all of the time. It depends on driver/guard knowledge on the day (as an example, 1058 Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse and return is booked a 170 3 car but has a Norwich guard booked on it and they've not learned 170s yet - a Nottingham guard is used to sub that part of the diagram if available, if not a 15x is used).

They also don't have much booked work through Derby at the moment but Derby Regional drivers do sign the traction so they can be used on Matlock services to free up a 15x.

It is all rather complex to try and sort out every day.

 

[43102EMR]

Welsh rolling stock strategy evolves as three-phase post-pandemic recovery envisaged

UK: TfW Rail has again revised its fleet strategy as it seeks to ensure passenger services can be improved despite the financial constraints caused by Covid-19, Managing Director Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde tells Rail Business UK.

www.railwaygazette.com

Per this article, all 12 of TfW’s 170/2s inherited from Greater Anglia are now being sub-leased to EMR until the end of their franchise as speculated above, although it is strongly expected this is to be permanent. The Southern 171s also won’t move over due to there being no replacements, hence why the TfW fleet is being moved due to ease of fleet replacements thanks to the GC Mk4s…

 

[PHILIPE]

Welsh rolling stock strategy evolves as three-phase post-pandemic recovery envisaged

UK: TfW Rail has again revised its fleet strategy as it seeks to ensure passenger services can be improved despite the financial constraints caused by Covid-19, Managing Director Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde tells Rail Business UK.

www.railwaygazette.com

Per this article, all 12 of TfW’s 170/2s inherited from Greater Anglia are now being sub-leased to EMR until the end of their franchise as speculated above, although it is strongly expected this is to be permanent. The Southern 171s also won’t move over due to there being no replacements, hence why the TfW fleet is being moved due to ease of fleet replacements thanks to the GC Mk4s…

Also poster on the TFW cascad5e Thread

 

[Wyrleybart]

Liverpool-Nottingham would require six circuits of two sets each. So the requirement would be 12 sets in traffic, for which 15 units is more than sufficient to cover maintenance needs.

Apologies for the historic reply, but I am not sure that three maintenance spares for twelve in traffic, given how elderly and hard working trains have become in the industry. XC's 29 class 170s are contracted to WMR for maintenance at Tyseley Pre pandemic 25 of the 29 were diagrammed to work. XC are now more or less back to pre pandemic timetables for the 170s but Tyseley are struggling to present 21 and sometimes just 19 are in traffic every day with voyager substitutes.

20 - 30 year old DMUs which run high mileages and long service hours need to be in excellent condition after a major exam, then need TLC and down time on depots, and certainly not forestalling work.

 

[43102EMR]

Apologies for the historic reply, but I am not sure that three maintenance spares for twelve in traffic, given how elderly and hard working trains have become in the industry. XC's 29 class 170s are contracted to WMR for maintenance at Tyseley Pre pandemic 25 of the 29 were diagrammed to work. XC are now more or less back to pre pandemic timetables for the 170s but Tyseley are struggling to present 21 and sometimes just 19 are in traffic every day with voyager substitutes.

20 - 30 year old DMUs which run high mileages and long service hours need to be in excellent condition after a major exam, then need TLC and down time on depots, and certainly not forestalling work.

The Tyseley based units are in serious need of an overhaul - when they were “refurbished” the first time back in 2009 it was nothing more than a mere refresh involving a repaint and moquette change as they were still relatively new back then. Sadly this is now catching up with them, particularly on the WMR ones which sound like the motors will conk out any day now…

 

[43096]

The Tyseley based units are in serious need of an overhaul - when they were “refurbished” the first time back in 2009 it was nothing more than a mere refresh involving a repaint and moquette change as they were still relatively new back then. Sadly this is now catching up with them, particularly on the WMR ones which sound like the motors will conk out any day now…

Engine overhauls are totally separate from repaints and internal soft furnishings in the maintenance regime. You cannot make any assumptions based on last refurbishment about the state of the mechanical parts.

 

[MCR247]

The Tyseley based units are in serious need of an overhaul - when they were “refurbished” the first time back in 2009 it was nothing more than a mere refresh involving a repaint and moquette change as they were still relatively new back then. Sadly this is now catching up with them, particularly on the WMR ones which sound like the motors will conk out any day now…

The Cross Country ones don’t sound any better, particularly the /1s. Having said that 397 and 398 also don’t sound great and they’re the newest (or least old at this point I guess)