EMR Class 360's

[Bletchleyite]

Mostly a dislike of change, I suspect. It’s fair to say that, while they aren’t as good as promised given the lack of refurbishment, they’re also nowhere near as bad as often reported on here.

They’re certainly more reliable now than they were, but they’re arguably also more comfortable than the Meridians in standard class. Once the refurbishment happens there should be an improvement.

I don't hate 350/2s like some do (and 360s are basically identical inside bar the location of the former first class), but I think you would be in a minority of one (or very skinny) if you were seriously suggesting you prefer a 3+2 seated suburban unit over a 2+2 seated InterCity one, unless it's a choice between "suburban unit with lots of space" or "overcrowded IC unit with lots of standing".

Meridians aren't amazing, but I definitely prefer any unit where I fit in one seat rather than needing to hang half a cheek into the aisle because the seats were designed for schoolchildren (though that's also true of some 2+2 seated units e.g. 700s and 730s).

 

[43066]

I don't hate 350/2s like some do (and 360s are basically identical inside bar the location of the former first class), but I think you would be in a minority of one (or very skinny) if you were seriously suggesting you prefer a 3+2 seated suburban unit over a 2+2 seated InterCity one, unless it's a choice between "suburban unit with lots of space" or "overcrowded IC unit with lots of standing".

Fair point. Admittedly I’m thinking of the 360s in their current generally-not-too-crowded-state, and the now diabolical condition of the 222 standard seats (albeit this is being addressed with an interior refresh with the seats being re-trimmed).

 

[QSK19]

It’s fair to say that, while they aren’t as good as promised given the lack of refurbishment, they’re also nowhere near as bad as often reported on here.

Yep, I’ve softened a bit towards them over the past few months, especially how switching to one at Kettering reaped dividends last week. I still think they’re an absolute disgrace in terms of their internal condition and there are too many shortformed services; but they do get people from A to B reliably.

On balance, they’ve been ok; but if they get refurbished (I am very skeptical that they will get anything done to them), that’ll make them a good fit for the Connect service.

I don't understand the bad rep the 360s are getting on EMR; I recently went on a 350/2 (basically the same train) and the declassified first class was comfy enough, the train was very smooth at speed and it was decent inside as well. Can someone enlighten me as to why so many people hate on the 360s?

Getting a commuter level of service/comfort whilst paying IC level fares would be another gripe.

 

[Wolfie]

Yep, I’ve softened a bit towards them over the past few months, especially how switching to one at Kettering reaped dividends last week. I still think they’re an absolute disgrace in terms of their internal condition and there are too many shortformed services; but they do get people from A to B reliably.

On balance, they’ve been ok; but if they get refurbished (I am very skeptical that they will get anything done to them), that’ll make them a good fit for the Connect service.


Getting a commuter level of service/comfort whilst paying IC level fares would be another gripe.

A bloody good deep clean and 350/1-style interior refurb (even if they were left as 3+2) would go a long way to stop many of the complaints.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Neglect.

Ah OK. So 350s are in better shape than 360s?

Mostly a dislike of change, I suspect. It’s fair to say that, while they aren’t as good as promised given the lack of refurbishment, they’re also nowhere near as bad as often reported on here.

Yes, 350s are some of the smoothest trains in the UK excluding HSTs (along with the 365 and 465). I personally would much prefer a 350 to a 377/375. A 350 doesn't bang me into the wall when it goes around a corner!! The 377s are terrible even on good track.

They’re certainly more reliable now than they were, but they’re arguably also more comfortable than the Meridians in standard class. Once the refurbishment happens there should be an improvement.

? Desiros have always topped the reliability tables so I don't understand why they had reliability problems

 

[QSK19]

Desiros have always topped the reliability tables so I don't understand why they had reliability problems

Because GA ran the 360s into the ground in the last year before switching to EMR - GA’s stance would have been there being no point maintaining them properly if they’re not going to be kept for much longer (and presumably no penalties were applied by Angel for offleasing them in poor condition due to a new lessee - in this case EMR - taking them on immediately).

Also, EMR had never had EMU stock before (ie no knowledge of EMU-specific requirements/particularities) and heavy maintenance arrangements being far from ideal.

 

[Mikw]

I don't understand the bad rep the 360s are getting on EMR; I recently went on a 350/2 (basically the same train) and the declassified first class was comfy enough, the train was very smooth at speed and it was decent inside as well. Can someone enlighten me as to why so many people hate on the 360s?

I don't understand the hate either. Compared to the 222's theres an abundance of seats, they're quick, quiet and smooth.
Yes, reliability hasn't been good with short formed trains being common, but it's getting better.
For me new carpets and new interiors would be good, along with charging points, and getting the air con sorted, it's ice cold on some of them, and warm in the very next carriage.
For the relatively short journey times they're decent trains.

 

[AM9]

Mostly a dislike of change, I suspect. It’s fair to say that, while they aren’t as good as promised given the lack of refurbishment, they’re also nowhere near as bad as often reported on here.

I think that having had the services using HSTs and 222s, they feel that they are entitled to a full IC train forever for what is really a longish range Outer Suburban service.

 

[QSK19]

I think that having had the services using HSTs and 222s, they feel that they are entitled to a full IC train forever for what is really a longish range Outer Suburban service.

I think that if fares were reduced to a regional express level, then folks would accept and expect that level of train.

I agree that it is not really an IC service; however paying IC fares requires an IC product. You get what you pay for.

 

[AM9]

I think that if fares were reduced to a regional express level, then folks would accept and expect that level of train.

I agree that it is not really an IC service; however paying IC fares requires an IC product. You get what you pay for.

Fares vary across the country according to demand. Each fare give no more than the right to travel and there is no expectation of any particular comfort level.

 

[bramling]

Fair point. Admittedly I’m thinking of the 360s in their current generally-not-too-crowded-state, and the now diabolical condition of the 222 standard seats (albeit this is being addressed with an interior refresh with the seats being re-trimmed).

From the point of view of someone I know who uses them daily, the issues are:

1) Internal state
2) Downgrade from 222
3) Extra stops to/from London for Wellingborough

I get the feeling that (1) and (3) are the biggest issues, (2) probably wouldn’t be a problem if the trains were a bit better and everything worked as planned, ie no short forms or cancellations. But going from a non-stop journey to one which has three intermediate stops has caused an element of annoyance, not the fault of the rolling stock of course.

 

[Trainbike46]

Because GA ran the 360s into the ground in the last year before switching to EMR - GA’s stance would have been there being no point maintaining them properly if they’re not going to be kept for much longer (and presumably no penalties were applied by Angel for offleasing them in poor condition due to a new lessee - in this case EMR - taking them on immediately).

Also, EMR had never had EMU stock before (ie no knowledge of EMU-specific requirements/particularities) and heavy maintenance arrangements being far from ideal.

While it is true maintenance was far below a desirable level at the end with GA, the reasoning likely wasn't the one you state, but instead related to the fact that due to GA maintenance facilities being reconstructed for the incoming fleet there simply was not the capacity to maintain any fleet to a desirable standard

 

[Bikeman78]

Getting a commuter level of service/comfort whilst paying IC level fares would be another gripe.

With modern interiors, there's not much in it. 387s go to Cardiff. I'm not bothered so long as it turns up on time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With modern interiors, there's not much in it. 387s go to Cardiff. I'm not bothered so long as it turns up on time.

3+2, though. As I said I'd drive to Northampton for the cheaper fares.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think that having had the services using HSTs and 222s, they feel that they are entitled to a full IC train forever for what is really a longish range Outer Suburban service.

Stay clear of Belgium then. There are booked turns on Intercity trains for 1960s and 1970s EMUs!

 

[QSK19]

With modern interiors, there's not much in it. 387s go to Cardiff. I'm not bothered so long as it turns up on time.

Yep indeed - I have myself stated that the fundamental purpose of a train service is to get from A to B, which the 360s generally do reliably.

The issue is that they’re in desperate need of an internal upgrade and nothing is being done about that - there is absolutely no excuse for leaving them in their quite frankly disgusting state. Paying any level of fare for ripped, sticky, filthy carpets and generally very grubby interior state is unacceptable, never mind an IC fare.

 

[Bikeman78]

3+2, though. As I said I'd drive to Northampton for the cheaper fares.

Are the seats on a 387 wider than a 360?

 

[QSK19]

3+2, though. As I said I'd drive to Northampton for the cheaper fares.

Indeed. If HS2 to EMD actually happens and result is that the 810s go elsewhere while the MML south of EMD gets a Connect style service, I’m staying off the trains - no way I would want to travel for over 1.5 hours on a 360 which probably still won’t have been refurbished by then!

The likelihood is that the 810s wouldn’t actually go anywhere; but still you get my sentiment!

 

[AM9]

Stay clear of Belgium then. There are booked turns on Intercity trains for 1960s and 1970s EMUs!

An 80 mile end to end journey with 5 intermediate stops hardly qualifies as IC. It doesn't even go between cities. Compare it with the LNR range of services from Euston up the WCML, the SE services to Ramsgate, GN Kings Cross to Peterborough (at least that destination is city)! All of those are similarly run using standard EMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors.
I wouldn't have any justifiable whinge about any of those services, - even in Belgium. EMUs such as thse services us are the future of railways.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think that having had the services using HSTs and 222s, they feel that they are entitled to a full IC train forever for what is really a longish range Outer Suburban service.

I don't think you can blame for this though. When you set out a consistent, generally pleasant, overall satisfactory service and keep it that way for 15/20 years, you set a precedent. It is then unpleasant when that precedent is undermined by something lacking.

 

[Bikeman78]

An 80 mile end to end journey with 5 intermediate stops hardly qualifies as IC. It doesn't even go between cities. Compare it with the LNR range of services from Euston up the WCML, the SE services to Ramsgate, GN Kings Cross to Peterborough (at least that destination is city)! All of those are similarly run using standard EMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors.
I wouldn't have any justifiable whinge about any of those services, - even in Belgium. EMUs such as thse services us are the future of railways.

I certainly wasn't whinging. As I mentioned further up the discussion, I have no problem with 387s to Cardiff and I'd have no problem with a 360. I'd take either over a 222.

 

[3141]

I travelled on an EMR class 360 for the first time today, from St. Pancras the Bedford and back. In the light of some of the things I've read here, I wondered what I was going to find. The carpet in standard class and in declassified first wasn't ripped. It didn't seem dirty, but it did have marks that ought to be removed by something more thorough than a vacuum cleaner. The seats were not dirty. It ran to time. I thought it was a pleasant journey.

 

[AM9]

I travelled on an EMR class 360 for the first time today, from St. Pancras the Bedford and back. In the light of some of the things I've read here, I wondered what I was going to find. The carpet in standard class and in declassified first wasn't ripped. It didn't seem dirty, but it did have marks that ought to be removed by something more thorough than a vacuum cleaner. The seats were not dirty. It ran to time. I thought it was a pleasant journey.

Altough I posted a reply to your post, I didn't intend inferring that you were guilty of that, so apologies if it looked like that. There is however a prevailing view of a few here that because there are IC services running between London and cities such as Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield, that local trains to Corby should also be so equipped. It does seem that you were fortunate to have an agreeable journey though.
Apart from the shabby state of the EMR 360s' interiors, their layout, capacity and performance is as good as the stock used on the longer distsnce services that I mentioned

 

[Hadders]

An 80 mile end to end journey with 5 intermediate stops hardly qualifies as IC. It doesn't even go between cities. Compare it with the LNR range of services from Euston up the WCML, the SE services to Ramsgate, GN Kings Cross to Peterborough (at least that destination is city)! All of those are similarly run using standard EMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors.
I wouldn't have any justifiable whinge about any of those services, - even in Belgium. EMUs such as thse services us are the future of railways.

The issue is the fares. Let's look at the cheapest return fare to London on a weekday:

Corby to London £58.80
Ramsgate £39.30 (via HS), £29.20 (not HS)
Peterborough £33.90
Nuneaton £33.50
Northampton £29.00
Banbury £36.30
Didcot £31.80

I could go on....

I know there are historical reasons why there fares are what they are, but you can understand why people are angry when they pay a 'premium' price for a service that's slower, with filthy trains with 3+2 seating.

If the cheapest fare was around £20 cheaper I don't think people would have a massive problem.

 

[AM9]

The issue is the fares. Let's look at the cheapest return fare to London on a weekday:

Corby to London £58.80
Ramsgate £39.30 (via HS), £29.20 (not HS)
Peterborough £33.90
Nuneaton £33.50
Northampton £29.00
Banbury £36.30
Didcot £31.80

I could go on....

I know there are historical reasons why there fares are what they are, but you can understand why people are angry when they pay a 'premium' price for a service that's slower, with filthy trains with 3+2 seating.

If the cheapest fare was around £20 cheaper I don't think people would have a massive problem.

The issue of fares (apart from any historical issues) is that the most similar journeys in your list (Peterborough, Nuneaton and Northampton) are on inter-city lines where there is an element of competition to the main inter-city stations on those lines and the fares to lesser stops served by a competing company must show some sort of relevance. Were it not for the specialised nature of the Thameslink services and it's stock, it would be possible to provide services to stations as far as Kettering and Corby as a TL extension, (in a similar way to Peterborough's). Not that I am advocating such a move, but there's nothing wrong with running class 700s as far as 'passenger comfort' is concerned, - the STP-PBO run takes 10 minutes longer than the STP-COR run. If TL actuallu competed with EMR, the fares to the smaller settlements north of Bedford would have fares in line with those up to Bedford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue of fares (apart from any historical issues) is that the most similar journeys in your list (Peterborough, Nuneaton and Northampton) are on inter-city lines where there is an element of competition to the main inter-city stations on those lines and the fares to lesser stops served by a competing company must show some sort of relevance.

It's actually mostly nothing whatsoever to do with that (and NMP isn't on the mainline, it's on a loop which isn't served by Avanti other than for diversionary purposes and one late evening service going that way for route learning purposes). It's because for former Network SouthEast TOCs, the Anytime Day Return is a regulated fare, whereas for InterCity operators it (or the Anytime Return) is not so they all cranked them right up.

For Nuneaton it is to do with competition (the WMT Only fares are cheap) but that's the only one in your list where it is.

 

[RailWonderer]

With modern interiors, there's not much in it. 387s go to Cardiff. I'm not bothered so long as it turns up on time.

And to Kings Lynn which is also two hours from London although not as far in distance.

For Nuneaton it is to do with competition (the WMT Only fares are cheap) but that's the only one in your list where it is.

Realistically through LNR have no competition as only a few Avanti services per day stop at Nuneaton but it's good they never cranked the fares up when Virgin reduced their Nuneaton calls in later years*
*It looks like Avanti are running 1tph there again at the moment having added the call to one of the Piccadilly services.

 

[AM9]

It's actually mostly nothing whatsoever to do with that (and NMP isn't on the mainline, it's on a loop which isn't served by Avanti other than for diversionary purposes and one late evening service going that way for route learning purposes). It's because for former Network SouthEast TOCs, the Anytime Day Return is a regulated fare, whereas for InterCity operators it (or the Anytime Return) is not so they all cranked them right up.

For Nuneaton it is to do with competition (the WMT Only fares are cheap) but that's the only one in your list where it is.

I know thay Northsmpton is on a (relatively) short loop from the WCML, and opertionally it is in effect the slow lines of that section. There is competition in fares along the line and if Northampton had an unjustifiably higher fare than stations before or after the loop it would difficult to defend. The point of my comment comparing other medium/long distance commuter fares was that the MML as a route does not have any TOC competition (like the GWR), whereas if the ex NSE services were extended beyond Bedford*, it is probable that Thameslink type of fares would also extend like they did when NSE services were extended from Huntingdon to Peterborough. They didn't even increase the NSE area, PBO is still outside it. So just running TL trains to Corby could be on the same basis to give passengers to outer suburban destinations a better deal.
*Clearly it would require more TL rolling stock, - unless the current surplus remains.

 

[baz962]

ASLEF have commented on the refurb .
Apparently happening , starting may 25 and finishing December 25.
Main points apart from refresh are 2+2 FISA seats and at seat charging points.

 

[LowLevel]

ASLEF have commented on the refurb .
Apparently happening , starting may 25 and finishing December 25.
Main points apart from refresh are 2+2 FISA seats and at seat charging points.

Specs for all 3 unit types were disclosed to the unions the other day - perhaps unsurprisingly they feature a lot of work on 360s, quite a bit on 170s and barely anything on the 158s.