EMR Class 360's

[Hey 3]

I thought the wiring south of Bedford needed to be upgraded to enable running above 100mph?

It does, yes.

 

[Aictos]

HST speed boards apply to both HSTs and 222s.

360s will also be able to use the highest speed available (up to their maximum speed of 110mph) as their braking performance is superior to both 222 and HST.

But according to the rulebook, Class 360s are not classed as as a HST form of traction but is classed as a EMU so while 222s may well be allowed to use the HST limits as per rulebook, there's nothing in it to suggest that Class 360s can use those speeds unless of course there's a pending update for it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Phrasing this as gently as I can, do you not think it’s quite likely that someone might have thought of this already and it’s all under control?

 

[43066]

But according to the rulebook, Class 360s are not classed as as a HST form of traction but is classed as a EMU so while 222s may well be allowed to use the HST limits as per rulebook, there's nothing in it to suggest that Class 360s can use those speeds unless of course there's a pending update for it.

More likely just an update to the sectional appendix.

There’s no particular urgency as the wires won’t be ready for a couple of years yet (which is also why the 810s will be diesel-under-the-wires south of Bedford at first).

 

[Aictos]

Phrasing this as gently as I can, do you not think it’s quite likely that someone might have thought of this already and it’s all under control?

More then likely but I'm just raising a valid question on what speed limits the fleet will be allowed to use in service.

Nothing wrong with asking.

 

[Merle Haggard]

More likely just an update to the sectional appendix.

There’s no particular urgency as the wires won’t be ready for a couple of years yet (which is also why the 810s will be diesel-under-the-wires south of Bedford at first).

Although the wires South of Bedford are limited to 100mph, I thought that they would allow 110mph Northwards from Corby Electrics service introduction. There's no non-HST fast trains on the latter section - will the 360s definitely be allowed 110mph when the service starts?

'No particular urgency' also seems to apply to the 360 refurbishment. I hope it's not becoming a trend...

 

[Hey 3]

Although the wires South of Bedford are limited to 100mph, I thought that they would allow 110mph Northwards from Corby Electrics service introduction. There's no non-HST fast trains on the latter section - will the 360s definitely be allowed 110mph when the service starts?

'No particular urgency' also seems to apply to the 360 refurbishment. I hope it's not becoming a trend...

360's will have to run at 100 mph between London and Bedford, then 110 mph between Bedford and Corby/Market Harbrough(if they ever will)

Speaking of the 360's, has EMR ordered a brand new replacement or have they not?

 

[Energy]

Speaking of the 360's, has EMR ordered a brand new replacement or have they not?

No. The 360s are pretty much perfect, reliable EMUs and small number of them (EMR don't have that many electric services). The only thing which could make them better would be end gangways and considering how similar they are to 350s (the 360/2s used to have a gangway before conversion) I wouldn't call it impossible. The 180s are getting replaced (along with the 222s) because they aren't really suitable anymore, EMR/DfT want bimodes to use the wires part way along the route, and the first one has terrible reliability.

 

[spotify95]

360's will have to run at 100 mph between London and Bedford, then 110 mph between Bedford and Corby/Market Harbrough(if they ever will)

Speaking of the 360's, has EMR ordered a brand new replacement or have they not?

The slow lines north of Wellingborough are limited to 90mph, which the 360s will need to use in order to get to Corby. As for the Wellingborough to Bedford stretch, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the slows won't be 110 rated and I don't know if the 360s will use the fasts or slows.
To Mkt Harborough, there are some 110 sections but if the 360s are classed as an EMU instead of an HST then they'll be limited to 100mph anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

No. The 360s are pretty much perfect, reliable EMUs and small number of them (EMR don't have that many electric services). The only thing which could make them better would be end gangways and considering how similar they are to 350s (the 360/2s used to have a gangway before conversion) I wouldn't call it impossible. The 180s are getting replaced (along with the 222s) because they aren't really suitable anymore, EMR/DfT want bimodes to use the wires part way along the route, and the first one has terrible reliability.

EMR only need to sort out the rolling stock requirements up to the end of their franchise (as originally planned) and the 360s are certainly more than capable of meeting the need for that length of time - assuming the interior refurbishment goes ahead and delivers a good uplift in quality. Fitting end gangways would involve cutting out and replacing the major structural members in the vehicle end as well as all the cab controls and wiring - not going to happen.

The slow lines north of Wellingborough are limited to 90mph, which the 360s will need to use in order to get to Corby. As for the Wellingborough to Bedford stretch, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the slows won't be 110 rated and I don't know if the 360s will use the fasts or slows.
To Mkt Harborough, there are some 110 sections but if the 360s are classed as an EMU instead of an HST then they'll be limited to 100mph anyway.

Fasts between Bedford and Wellinborough according to Modern Railways a few months back.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The slow lines north of Wellingborough are limited to 90mph, which the 360s will need to use in order to get to Corby. As for the Wellingborough to Bedford stretch, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the slows won't be 110 rated and I don't know if the 360s will use the fasts or slows.
To Mkt Harborough, there are some 110 sections but if the 360s are classed as an EMU instead of an HST then they'll be limited to 100mph anyway.

The 360s will not reach Market Harborough in the normal run of things.

Weekend engineering when the line is closed between MH and Leicester is the only use case. That being said, I do think the MML wiring in K01a goes just far enough North to allow a 360 cross and reverse North of MH station.

It's not in the service specification to run EMR Electrics to MH in BAU operations (i.e. not specified in MML Electrification KO1a). If that had been required, then NR would almost certainly have needed to provide a turnback siding to avoid fouling up the IC services.

Obviously the situation could change again if/when wires are extended to Leicester *and* capacity at Leicester is dealt with. Given where we are due to Covid, I think anything more is simply speculating about what could happen in CP7 or beyond.

 

[59CosG95]

Although the wires South of Bedford are limited to 100mph, I thought that they would allow 110mph Northwards from Corby Electrics service introduction. There's no non-HST fast trains on the latter section - will the 360s definitely be allowed 110mph when the service starts?

There's no reason why they can't. The UKMS cantilevers (both on UKMS100 &UKMS125) are capable of 300mm uplift (although the system manual dictates a maximum of 250mm), and Mk3 deep-curved arms (as seen on headspans) have 300mm uplift too. The legacy single track cantilevers, however, only allow for 160mm uplift, which is insufficient for 3 pans. 100mph is the changeover point for this.

 

[D365]

No. The 360s are pretty much perfect, reliable EMUs and small number of them (EMR don't have that many electric services). The only thing which could make them better would be end gangways and considering how similar they are to 350s (the 360/2s used to have a gangway before conversion) I wouldn't call it impossible.

Why would they need gangways? No portion working, no trolleys... guards?

 

[edwin_m]

Why would they need gangways? No portion working, no trolleys... guards?

Uneven loading going out of St Pancras, especially if they continue EMT's frequent peak hour practice of not opening the gate to the platform until a few minutes before departure.

 

[Ianno87]

Uneven loading going out of St Pancras, especially if they continue EMT's frequent peak hour practice of not opening the gate to the platform until a few minutes before departure.

Though hopefully the new timetable fixes that, with more standardised turnround times, less portion working/top train working etc.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the discussion about cl 360 gangways, there's one feature of the future timetable that might be crucial.
We are told that the journey time Northwards beyond Kettering (for passengers from stations to the South) will be hardly any longer than at present because there will be 5 minute connections there.
Changing trains at Kettering involves crossing from slow to fast line platforms and inevitably involves using the footbridge, which is at the South end of the platform. I would suggest that to walk from the front set of a 12 car 360 and cross the bridge will take up most of the available time - with the added complication that the footbridge then deposits the passenger opposite the first class of a down express.
I suppose you could instruct passengers changing to travel in the rear four cars, but these are likely to be filled by passengers joining at St Pancras.

 

[Ianno87]

In the discussion about cl 360 gangways, there's one feature of the future timetable that might be crucial.
We are told that the journey time Northwards beyond Kettering (for passengers from stations to the South) will be hardly any longer than at present because there will be 5 minute connections there.
Changing trains at Kettering involves crossing from slow to fast line platforms and inevitably involves using the footbridge, which is at the South end of the platform. I would suggest that to walk from the front set of a 12 car 360 and cross the bridge will take up most of the available time - with the added complication that the footbridge then deposits the passenger opposite the first class of a down express.
I suppose you could instruct passengers changing to travel in the rear four cars, but these are likely to be filled by passengers joining at St Pancras.

Though the rear 4 cars will empty out on the northward run, to be filled with (probably fewer) passengers joining at Luton Airport, Bedford etc. who will be changing at Kettering. i.e. more passengers will get off than will get on (in all likelihood)

You wouldn't be getting on at St Pancras if you were changing at Kettering; you'd get a direct train!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Though the rear 4 cars will empty out on the northward run, to be filled with (probably fewer) passengers joining at Luton Airport, Bedford etc. who will be changing at Kettering. i.e. more passengers will get off than will get on (in all likelihood)

You wouldn't be getting on at St Pancras if you were changing at Kettering; you'd get a direct train!

Yes of course; but I meant that the rear cars would already be full with passengers from St. Pancras when passengers joined at intermediate stations. I accept that St Pancras boarding passengers would be alighting en route, but passengers joining at St. Pancras would naturally join the coaches nearest the barrier (and be unable to move forward due to the lack of gangways) and therefore concentrated in the rear 4 - and presumably 12 car trains indicate considerable demand for the new service.
Another factor is the position of the platform access. Not sure about other stations, but at Wellingborough the entrance to the down platform (and the limited shelter) would incline passengers towards joining the front four coaches. Boarding the rear four involves waiting on a part of the platform not only without cover but with no protection from side winds either, a bleak prospect.
It will be an uphill struggle for a traveller from Wellingborough to anywhere North (apart from Nottingham) to be persuaded to travel by rail, because it involves two changes; if the first change proves to be unreliable even those who are, may not wish to repeat the experience.

 

[43096]

with the added complication that the footbridge then deposits the passenger opposite the first class of a down express.

Not necessarily. Formations on the MML can be either way round: a 222 arriving at Derby at the end of the day from London with first class at the south end might well go to Nottingham the following morning, which puts first class at the north end.

 

[dk1]

Not necessarily. Formations on the MML can be either way round: a 222 arriving at Derby at the end of the day from London with first class at the south end might well go to Nottingham the following morning, which puts first class at the north end.

Or heads North from Leicester to London via Manton Jnc or into Sheffield via Beighton.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not necessarily. Formations on the MML can be either way round: a 222 arriving at Derby at the end of the day from London with first class at the south end might well go to Nottingham the following morning, which puts first class at the north end.

It's a year since I last travelled, I'd forgotten the MMLs random first-orientation generator!

 

[fgwrich]

360 / OHLE testing continues at a pace at the moment, with the 360s now operating up to 110. Also to note is that they’re now testing them / the OHLE with all 3 pantographs up, as this screenshot of a tweet from Gary Keenor shows.

 

[43096]

360 / OHLE testing continues at a pace at the moment, with the 360s now operating up to 110. Also to note is that they’re now testing them / the OHLE with all 3 pantographs up, as this screenshot of a tweet from Gary Keenor shows.

The DATS test train has been involved in testing with 3 pantograph raised for some time.

 

[Railperf]

The slow lines north of Wellingborough are limited to 90mph, which the 360s will need to use in order to get to Corby. As for the Wellingborough to Bedford stretch, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the slows won't be 110 rated and I don't know if the 360s will use the fasts or slows.
To Mkt Harborough, there are some 110 sections but if the 360s are classed as an EMU instead of an HST then they'll be limited to 100mph anyway.

So far, Realtime trains timings indicate 21.5 mins St Pancras to Luton Airport vice 21 mins for a 222, and 14.5 mins Luton to Bedford vice 12.5 mins for a 222. Bedford to Wellingborough will be only a minute slower for the 360's. And Wellingborough to Kettering is timed to be 1 mins slower for a 360 than a 222.
So the biggest time loss is Luton to Bedford, where the HST's and 222's do run most of the way at 125mph -compared to an initial 100mph for the 360's until OLE mods can take place.

 

[Ethan1852]

The Class 360's have been doing 110mph runs recently. https://twitter.com/25kV/status/1369041213198905345

 

[fgwrich]

The DATS test train has been involved in testing with 3 pantograph raised for some time.

There is that, but this will be the first time that the 360s have ran with 3 Pans up, and at 110 as well.

 

[43066]

And Wellingborough to Kettering is timed to be 1 mins slower for a 360 than a 222.

Are you sure that’s Corby bound 222s, as opposed to stoppers heading further north on the fasts?

I’d be astonished if 222s going to Corby aren’t slower than predicted 360 timings, given that both will be checked down for Kettering South, both are 110mph max on the down, and 360s accelerate rather better.

 

[DBS92042]

A couple of moves between Cricklewood and Northampton today (47727 providing the power):

5Q60 Cricklewood to Northampton - 360117 & 360105
5Q62 Northampton to Cricklewood - 360112 & 360103

 

[Aictos]

Are you sure that’s Corby bound 222s, as opposed to stoppers heading further north on the fasts?

I’d be astonished if 222s going to Corby aren’t slower than predicted 360 timings, given that both will be checked down for Kettering South, both are 110mph max on the down, and 360s accelerate rather better.

GBTT
****

Class 222
********

London St Pancras 09:47
Luton 10:09/10:09
Bedford 10:23/10:24
Wellingborough 10:35/10:36
Kettering 10:45/10:46
Corby 10:55

So 1 hour and 8 minutes (37 minutes from St Pancras to Bedford)

Class 360
********

London St Pancras 09:45
Luton Airport Parkway 10:07/10:07
Luton 10:10/10:10
Bedford 10:25/10:26
Wellingborough 10:37/10:37
Kettering 10:45/10:46
Corby 10:54

So 1 Hour and 9 minutes (35 minutes from St Pancras to Bedford)

Just to compare for passengers from Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway, the 9Rs which don't stop at West Hampstead TL are:

London St Pancras 10:36
St Albans 10:54/10:55
Harpenden 11:02/11:02
Luton Airport Parkway 11:07/11:07
Luton 10:11/10:11
Leagrave 11:15/11:15
Harlington 11:19/11:19
Flitwick 11:23/11:23
Bedford 11:36

(So 1 Hour from St Pancras to Bedford)

So from the above it is easy to see the attraction of the EMR Electrics services for people wishing to commute to Luton and Bedford more so the latter as 35 minutes on the train is more attractive to the passenger then spending a hour on a train which stops all stations Bedford to St Albans then non stop to St Pancras, as for example as most commuters at Bedford and Luton would certainly plump for the EMR service being that it takes half the time of the TL service.

 

[D365]

360 / OHLE testing continues at a pace at the moment, with the 360s now operating up to 110. Also to note is that they’re now testing them / the OHLE with all 3 pantographs up, as this screenshot of a tweet from Gary Keenor shows.

Very appropriate positioning for the parked electric car!