EMR Class 360's

[JonathanH]

It's certainly going to be interesting how the layout of each standard 4 car unit, multiplies and duplicates resources compared to a fixed formation of 5 or 7 coaches.
I imagine each unit will be equipped with a disabled toilet and seating, 2 cycle spaces which takes up space, and then you need luggage racks similar to the 700s for airport passengers.

In a way, it is a shame that this sort of duplication is necessary. I would imagine this to be a fleet which will all be the 'same way round' as there should be no reversing on route - eg all units on C2C and the 365, 387, 717 on GN are the 'same way round'. Therefore, you could operate it with 'south end' and 'north end' units and avoid the problem. Of course. the lack of gangways hinders this as certain things do need to be repeated in each unit.

I can’t really see a whole First coach on a four car EMU, as suggested a few posts back. Is there any sort of precedent for that at all, looking across the whole fleet of four car Desiros or Electrostars, or similar equivalents?

Historically, in the early 2000s when the 375s were introduced on the South Eastern routes, Connex had a plan for the units that at peak times that would see a whole carriage set aside for first class. To do this, they specified the whole train to have the same specification and then they would set up one carriage in a 12-car unit for first class before service or on its inward journey to London for the evening peak. Of course, this didn't work and they had to identify a specific area in each unit for first class but something similar could work on a route with much more fixed formations.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I can’t really see a whole First coach on a four car EMU, as suggested a few posts back. Is there any sort of precedent for that at all, looking across the whole fleet of four car Desiros or Electrostars, or similar equivalents?

Well, that's the proportion in the trains that they are replacing. As stated up-thread, it's Intercity at the moment, with fares to suit.

 

[py_megapixel]

I can’t really see a whole First coach on a four car EMU, as suggested a few posts back. Is there any sort of precedent for that at all, looking across the whole fleet of four car Desiros or Electrostars, or similar equivalents?

Across 4-car trains used on medium to long distance services it seems to vary a lot:

InterCity 125s operated by ScotRail have a whole 1st carriage, as do Voyagers

350s have a small section of 1st near the centre of the train
450s I believe have the section behind each cab devoted to 1st
334s, 350s and 458s have no 1st at all
385s have half a carriage of 1st in one of the driving vehicles


Some of this might be slightly wrong but you get the idea

 

[Class 170101]

Albeit providing different functions - the likes of Kettering and Wellingborough have 'intercity' fares which are much more expensive than neighbouring Northampton on the WCML so the standard of rolling stock has to be considered as I doubt they will be planning fare cuts.

I doubt the standard of stock relatively to fares makes any difference now. Passengers at Stowmarket now have peak time 321s / 360s vice Class 90 (and now Class 745s) but its fares haven't reduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Across 4-car trains used on medium to long distance services it seems to vary a lot:

InterCity 125s operated by ScotRail have a whole 1st carriage, as do Voyagers

350s have a small section of 1st near the centre of the train
450s I believe have the section behind each cab devoted to 1st
334s, 350s and 458s have no 1st at all
385s have half a carriage of 1st in one of the driving vehicles


Some of this might be slightly wrong but you get the idea

I didn't really want to include short HSTS and Voyagers, just general 4 car EMUs...

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, that's the proportion in the trains that they are replacing. As stated up-thread, it's Intercity at the moment, with fares to suit.

I shall be quite surprised if you get a whole first carriage, but not surprised at all if fares stay the same anyway...

 

[py_megapixel]

I didn't really want to include short HSTS and Voyagers, just general 4 car EMUs...

In which case no. I don't believe there exists a 4-car EMU in the UK with a whole first class carriage. The closest I can think of are the 801s with 1½ carriages of first in a 5 car set and 2½ carriages in a 9 car set, which is a greater ratio of first carriages : standard carriages than 1 carriage of first in a 4 car set. However as the routes these operate are much longer than the 360s this is a poor comparison.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I doubt the standard of stock relatively to fares makes any difference now. Passengers at Stowmarket now have peak time 321s / 360s vice Class 90 (and now Class 745s) but its fares haven't reduced.

Yes, I take the point. However, EMR may find that the Wellingborough passenger, finding that the new train is a suburban emu and slower, might drive to Northampton (not far) to catch a slightly superior suburban emu (gangwayed throughout - can walk through if crowded), slightly quicker, and save about 25% on the fare. Kettering, longer drive but even bigger saving. Sometimes, there is actually competition between TOCs - though, as both routes are Abellio...

 

[swt_passenger]

In which case no. I don't believe there exists a 4-car EMU in the UK with a whole first class carriage. The closest I can think of are the 801s with 1½ carriages of first in a 5 car set and 2½ carriages in a 9 car set, which is a greater ratio of first carriages : standard carriages than 1 carriage of first in a 4 car set. However as the routes these operate are much longer than the 360s this is a poor comparison.

I guess what it boils down to is whether St Pancras to Corby is considered as just another London outer suburban service, or gets some sort of special status based on its recent operation by Intercity type stock...

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, I take the point. However, EMR may find that the Wellingborough passenger, finding that the new train is a suburban emu and slower, might drive to Northampton (not far) to catch a slightly superior suburban emu (gangwayed throughout - can walk through if crowded), slightly quicker, and save about 25% on the fare. Kettering, longer drive but even bigger saving. Sometimes, there is actually competition between TOCs - though, as both routes are Abellio...

For the fare savings I take your point, but I don't believe that average passenger chooses their train services based upon whether a gangway is fitted to the front of the unit in question.

My guess is that passengers will appreciate the quieter, airier environment and modest capacity boost afforded by the newly introduced rolling stock over the Meridians. (When you factor in the doubling of service frequency that's a MASSIVE capacity boost)

 

[RailWonderer]

In which case no. I don't believe there exists a 4-car EMU in the UK with a whole first class carriage. The closest I can think of are the 801s with 1½ carriages of first in a 5 car set and 2½ carriages in a 9 car set, which is a greater ratio of first carriages : standard carriages than 1 carriage of first in a 4 car set. However as the routes these operate are much longer than the 360s this is a poor comparison.

The Heathrow Express 332s do for the 15-20 min ride. Even for a premium route it has mostly been overkill. To add to the list, the 5 car class 180 has a whole first class coach.

 

[MML]

I suppose the PRM toilet and seating could be positioned to utilise 25% of the first class coach, so it would leave only 3/4 of the remaining carriage for first class seating.
You would hope EMR are trying to replicate the service quality of existing Meridian stock. Otherwise they risk Corby, Wellingborough and Kettering customer's switching to cheaper routes and those joining at Bedford and Luton switching to Thameslink fast services.

 

[py_megapixel]

I suppose the PRM toilet and seating could be positioned to utilise 25% of the first class coach, so it would leave only 3/4 of the remaining carriage for first class seating.
You would hope EMR are trying to replicate the service quality of existing Meridian stock. Otherwise they risk Corby, Wellingborough and Kettering customer's switching to cheaper routes and those joining at Bedford and Luton switching to Thameslink fast services.

I'd choose Desiro over 22x any day

But in all seriousness, I think for every passenger lost through the change of rolling stock, at least one will be gained through the doubling of service frequency. If there's a train at the right time then people are of course more likely to take it.

 

[43096]

334s, 350s and 458s have no 1st at all

458s (or at least 458501-530) have first class seating behind each driving cab, although it is now declassified with the dumbing down of SWR's Reading services.

 

[Merle Haggard]

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For the fare savings I take your point, but I don't believe that average passenger chooses their train services based upon whether a gangway is fitted to the front of the unit in question.

My guess is that passengers will appreciate the quieter, airier environment and modest capacity boost afforded by the newly introduced rolling stock over the Meridians. (When you factor in the doubling of service frequency that's a MASSIVE capacity boost)

Northamptonshire has already had that experience - the 321's on the Euston line. They were unpopular because of the lack of gangways (although crowding was more of an issue than the new service is likely to be), and they were replacement with sets that were gangwayed throughout. Coincidentally, they went to the present home of the 360s.

A massive capacity boost doesn't itself increase demand if the present provision isn't full. It's only Corby that has an increase in frequency; Wellingborough frequency to London remains the same, through services on main line beyond Kettring abandoned.

Almost all Northampton London trains are 350s (probably quite similar to a 360). One morning train a day is a double Voyager (probably slightly inferior to a Meridian?). It's a VERY popular service.

 

[MML]

Class 222 7-car units have 3 first class including kitchen. Though they predominantly work the Sheffield expresses.
The 4 and 5 car units have 1 first class carriage with kitchen each.
Giving 2 with a 8, 9 or 10 car formation.

Interesting how they intend to market the 30 minute interval nonstop service to Luton Airport too.
Thameslink services will be more frequent, from a greater number of London terminals and be only a couple of minutes slower. EMR might have to make the service more attractive if they are only offering a 30 minute interval from St Pancras.

 

[edwin_m]

It's certainly going to be interesting how the layout of each standard 4 car unit, multiplies and duplicates resources compared to a fixed formation of 5 or 7 coaches.
I imagine each unit will be equipped with a disabled toilet and seating, 2 cycle spaces which takes up space, and then you need luggage racks similar to the 700s for airport passengers.

The luggage racks would be needed in a similar ratio to seats over the whole train however long it was, and a unit of similar length on Thameslink also has three (I think - at least two) accessible toilets even though through gangwayed, so I don't think the set length has influenced those much. It's a shame however that they aren't gangwayed between units. Especially if St Pancras perpetuates the traditional practice of letting people onto the train at the last moment, they will end up very unevenly loaded in the evening peak.

I can’t really see a whole First coach on a four car EMU, as suggested a few posts back. Is there any sort of precedent for that at all, looking across the whole fleet of four car Desiros or Electrostars, or similar equivalents?

It's unusual for typical "suburban" MU duties but would be similar to the ratio in the Meridians they replace.

A massive capacity boost doesn't itself increase demand if the present provision isn't full. It's only Corby that has an increase in frequency; Wellingborough frequency to London remains the same, through services on main line beyond Kettring abandoned.

Almost all Northampton London trains are 350s (probably quite similar to a 360). One morning train a day is a double Voyager (probably slightly inferior to a Meridian?). It's a VERY popular service.

Kettering gets more London trains too. One reason to pay attention to the interior standard of the 360s is to reduce the likelihood that Kettering passengers will wait for a fast.

It's difficult to predict the long-term effect of Covid, but one of the more likely consequences is an acceleration of the trend of people working partly from home and commuting on a few days each week. A possible response is to provide a lower-density environment so commuters can work on the train and the journey is more comfortable as well as being useful time, while charging them somewhat more for the experience. People who have the choice will probably then opt to use the train more often. Perhaps the Corby line is an unintentional pointer to the "new normal" on other outer-suburban routes?

 

[A0wen]

Yes, I take the point. However, EMR may find that the Wellingborough passenger, finding that the new train is a suburban emu and slower, might drive to Northampton (not far) to catch a slightly superior suburban emu (gangwayed throughout - can walk through if crowded), slightly quicker, and save about 25% on the fare. Kettering, longer drive but even bigger saving. Sometimes, there is actually competition between TOCs - though, as both routes are Abellio...

By the time you've driven from Wellingboro to Northampton (20 mins at least) you'll have ended up with a much longer journey.

The current Wellingborough journey time is about 59 mins with 2 stops - the 360s will do both Lutons but given their acceleration is much better than the 222s, the effect will be negligible.

Pretty much all Northampton trains are at least an hour including up to 1h 20m - in fact the only way to get a quick journey is change at MK onto an Avanti service.

 

[Martin222002]

Class 222 7-car units have 3 first class including kitchen. Though they predominantly work the Sheffield expresses.
The 4 and 5 car units have 1 first class carriage with kitchen each.
Giving 2 with a 8, 9 or 10 car formation.

The 5 car 222/0s actually have 1 and 3/4 coaches of first class, with the 4 car 222/1s having 1 and a 1/4 coaches of first class.

Even given the higher proportion of first class, I'd doubt we'd see a full coach of the 360s for first class, with 3/4s being more likely what I'd expect. That would give a pair of 360s roughly the same number of first class seats as a 5 car 222.

It has to be remembered that there has been a trend for a reduction in the ratio of first class to standard seating in recent years, so 3/4s is probably the best we can hope for.

Interesting how they intend to market the 30 minute interval nonstop service to Luton Airport too.
Thameslink services will be more frequent, from a greater number of London terminals and be only a couple of minutes slower. EMR might have to make the service more attractive if they are only offering a 30 minute interval from St Pancras.

I think this is being done to appease the demands of Luton Airport, which at the time the EMR franchise was being let was demanding a non-stop service between Luton Airport Parkway & St Pancras given that Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted had one.

 

[MML]

I think this is being done to appease the demands of Luton Airport, which at the time the EMR franchise was being let was demanding a non-stop service between Luton Airport Parkway & St Pancras given that Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted had one.

Yes, indeed. While Stansted has only a single product, Heathrow has the premium Heathrow Express versus the slower Connect service which will become Crossrail giving great similarities to what EMR Electrics and Thameslink could become for Luton. But of course, Luton has fewer premium business class travellers than Heathrow.

Gatwick Express shows how a product differential can be so eroded that outside the peak, most trains are now empty.
With similar interiors and only a few minutes differential in journey, the higher fares are seen as excessive and no longer represent value for money on what was previously a lucrative premium product.

 

[Merle Haggard]

By the time you've driven from Wellingboro to Northampton (20 mins at least) you'll have ended up with a much longer journey.

The current Wellingborough journey time is about 59 mins with 2 stops - the 360s will do both Lutons but given their acceleration is much better than the 222s, the effect will be negligible.

Pretty much all Northampton trains are at least an hour including up to 1h 20m - in fact the only way to get a quick journey is change at MK onto an Avanti service.

Just to point out that Wellingboro' is also the railhead for parts of East Northamptonshire; from there, Northampton would just be a matter of carrying on along the A45. There's also number of people - mainly commuters - living on the Eastern side of Northampton who travel via Wellingborough because of the, at present, superior service. I was one, years ago!

Regarding future Wellingborough to London journey times, I've looked again at the EMR December 2020 Timetable proposals attached to the first post of the 'EMR 2020 TT consultation thread'. Looking at the entry for Wellingborough, I remember being slightly confused when I first saw it because, on the line map attached, it's Kettering not Wellingboro' that's shown boxed, and the 'fastest off peak time' for Wellingboro' is shown as 45 minutes to London. This is with, presumably, 2 intermediate stops (Bedford and either Luton or Luton Airport Parkway) and compares well with 50 minutes Kettering - London non stop (7 miles more) in a 125 max Meridian. As you say, the 360s have good acceleration, but they'll certainly need it to achieve an average of 88 mph start to stop including 2 station calls and where 50 miles is at 100 max!
I'm not absolutely certain this is correct - is it just possible that EMR's haven't paid the greatest detail attention to somewhere they regard as un-important?

 

[Merle Haggard]

snip

Kettering gets more London trains too. One reason to pay attention to the interior standard of the 360s is to reduce the likelihood that Kettering passengers will wait for a fast.

snip

With the frequencies quoted I would suggest it's likely that waiting for the non-stop will always result in an earlier London arrival.

It's not uncommon for the passenger to be given the choice of inter-city or suburban standard services to London - for instance, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes. What's unusual for Kettering is that they will both be offered by the same TOC. It's easy for Avanti and LNW to differentiate on service and price, and they certainly do. Will EMR Electrics have a different fares policy to EMR Inter City, with tickets on the former not valid on the latter? Messages on other threads (cf Gatwick) suggests that, under franchise regulations, this is not permitted.
As has been suggested up thread, it may be necessary to reduce EMR Electrics fares at stations in competition with Thameslink. However, this would undermine the present premium fares from Wellingborough if split-ticketing was adopted - unless the Wellingborough - Bedford and Luton fares were even higher.

 

[A0wen]

Just to point out that Wellingboro' is also the railhead for parts of East Northamptonshire; from there, Northampton would just be a matter of carrying on along the A45. There's also number of people - mainly commuters - living on the Eastern side of Northampton who travel via Wellingborough because of the, at present, superior service. I was one, years ago!

Regarding future Wellingborough to London journey times, I've looked again at the EMR December 2020 Timetable proposals attached to the first post of the 'EMR 2020 TT consultation thread'. Looking at the entry for Wellingborough, I remember being slightly confused when I first saw it because, on the line map attached, it's Kettering not Wellingboro' that's shown boxed, and the 'fastest off peak time' for Wellingboro' is shown as 45 minutes to London. This is with, presumably, 2 intermediate stops (Bedford and either Luton or Luton Airport Parkway) and compares well with 50 minutes Kettering - London non stop (7 miles more) in a 125 max Meridian. As you say, the 360s have good acceleration, but they'll certainly need it to achieve an average of 88 mph start to stop including 2 station calls and where 50 miles is at 100 max!
I'm not absolutely certain this is correct - is it just possible that EMR's haven't paid the greatest detail attention to somewhere they regard as un-important?

I don't disagree that Wellingborough is used as a railhead - the point I'm making is you'll add *at least* 20 mins to your journey driving across to Northampton station - and the journey times to London are slower to begin with. So on average you'll end up with a 30 minute longer journey for no reason.

I suspect far more people travel to Wellingborough from the east end of Northampton (I also do this) than from east of Northampton to catch the train there - unless Euston is particularly convenient in a way St P isn't, there's no real attraction (apart from cost) of going that way.

45 mins is probably achievable - the fastest current is the 8.07 which is non-stop arriving at 8.55, so 48 mins. But when I've used it, it usually gets held around Kentish Town and somewhere else - in fact if you look at RTT for today it ran to time / a smidge early from Wellingborough to West Hampstead and then managed to get delayed arriving 5 late into St P.

 

[edwin_m]

With the frequencies quoted I would suggest it's likely that waiting for the non-stop will always result in an earlier London arrival.

Not sure about that. The timetable needs to offer connections at Kettering from Leicester and Nottingham to Bedford and both Lutons, so the stopper will need to be fairly soon after the non-stop. I think 12min connections were being talked about in the consultation, which with three extra stops is likely to get it into St Pancras about 3min before the next non-stop which is the way the paths work now. And the operator will want to incentivize people to use the stopper so they can sell seats for longer distances on the former (and because some of the five-cars will be pushed for space).

That does mean that anyone arriving at a random time at Kettering is slightly more likely to find the next train is a non-stop, and Kettering passengers turning up randomly at St Pancras are 90% likely to end up on a non-stop.

 

[Martin222002]

Regarding future Wellingborough to London journey times, I've looked again at the EMR December 2020 Timetable proposals attached to the first post of the 'EMR 2020 TT consultation thread'. Looking at the entry for Wellingborough, I remember being slightly confused when I first saw it because, on the line map attached, it's Kettering not Wellingboro' that's shown boxed, and the 'fastest off peak time' for Wellingboro' is shown as 45 minutes to London. This is with, presumably, 2 intermediate stops (Bedford and either Luton or Luton Airport Parkway) and compares well with 50 minutes Kettering - London non stop (7 miles more) in a 125 max Meridian. As you say, the 360s have good acceleration, but they'll certainly need it to achieve an average of 88 mph start to stop including 2 station calls and where 50 miles is at 100 max!
I'm not absolutely certain this is correct - is it just possible that EMR's haven't paid the greatest detail attention to somewhere they regard as un-important?

Having seen what was proposed for the now delayed December 2020 timetable the fastest service figure of 45 minutes for London to Wellingborough is slightly misleading. While there were 2 services proposed to do that they were both northbound services in the morning peak, being additional calls in one Sheffield and one Nottingham service. So not exactly any good for London bound commuters. There were also 3 southbound services in the afternoon peak which make additional calls at Wellingborough which also achieve this 45 minute timing. One from Sheffield and two from Nottingham. These are to maintain direct peak time commuter links to and from Leicester, and onward links to Nottingham, Derby & Sheffield.

The proposed December 2020 timetable had a half hourly spaced service all day, bar the two mentioned above, between London and Wellingborough calling Luton Airport Parkway, Luton & Bedford, both of cause going onwards to Corby, with a journey time of around 53-54 minutes. So slightly slower than today's 47-48 journey times, though not surprising given the extra hourly calls at Luton and Luton Airport Parkway.

With the frequencies quoted I would suggest it's likely that waiting for the non-stop will always result in an earlier London arrival.

I can also confirm that the proposed December 2020 timetable had no overtaking of EMR Intercity services of EMR Electrics. The timetable was designed so that stopping services would arrive into St Pancras just before the next non-stop service from Kettering. So there'd be no benefit in waiting for the next non-stop service.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Having seen what was proposed for the now delayed December 2020 timetable the fastest service figure of 45 minutes for London to Wellingborough is slightly misleading. While there were 2 services proposed to do that they were both northbound services in the morning peak, being additional calls in one Sheffield and one Nottingham service. So not exactly any good for London bound commuters. There were also 3 southbound services in the afternoon peak which make additional calls at Wellingborough which also achieve this 45 minute timing. One from Sheffield and two from Nottingham. These are to maintain direct peak time commuter links to and from Leicester, and onward links to Nottingham, Derby & Sheffield.

The proposed December 2020 timetable had a half hourly spaced service all day, bar the two mentioned above, between London and Wellingborough calling Luton Airport Parkway, Luton & Bedford, both of cause going onwards to Corby, with a journey time of around 53-54 minutes. So slightly slower than today's 47-48 journey times, though not surprising given the extra hourly calls at Luton and Luton Airport Parkway.


I can also confirm that the proposed December 2020 timetable had no overtaking of EMR Intercity services of EMR Electrics. The timetable was designed so that stopping services would arrive into St Pancras just before the next non-stop service from Kettering. So there'd be no benefit in waiting for the next non-stop service.

Thank you for the explanation.

To summarise; the 'fastest off peak service' time quoted by EMR is never achieved off peak. It is only achieved in the peak, but against the peak flow.

I idly wonder whether off-peak tickets will be valid on these trains....

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss EMR Class 360s

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread (if there isn't already an existing thread)

Thanks.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Somewhere I've seen that the plan is to run the 360s in 12 car sets all day. Can anyone confirm this? And also, how many seats (after fitting 2+2 and 2+1 seats) will there be in a 12-car?

 

[swt_passenger]

Somewhere I've seen that the plan is to run the 360s in 12 car sets all day. Can anyone confirm this? And also, how many seats (after fitting 2+2 and 2+1 seats) will there be in a 12-car?

The 2020 consultation only says “during the busiest times of the day” for 12 car. I think people have previously worked out there would be enough units to run 12 car all day if they chose.

I haven’t seen a figure for intended capacity after conversion, but maybe you’d expect it to be in the same ball park as a 350/4 In TPE layout? That had about 240S 19F. Its first area was the whole middle section of one coach.

So moving the first area into an end coach and including the area behind the cab, that might remove maybe 8 standard and add 6 first?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The 2020 consultation only says “during the busiest times of the day” for 12 car. I think people have previously worked out there would be enough units to run 12 car all day if they chose.

I haven’t seen a figure for intended capacity after conversion, but maybe you’d expect it to be in the same ball park as a 350/4 In TPE layout? That had about 240S 19F. Its first area was the whole middle section of one coach.

So moving the first area into an end coach and including the area behind the cab, that might remove maybe 8 standard and add 6 first?

Thank you for that, so a 12 car would have about 750 standard class seats. Quite an increase on the present 4 or 5 car 222s. (132 or 192, I think) - about 4 times more than a 5 car, 8 times more from Corby (2 trains per hour instead of 1).

I've been asleep at the back I know; but, if St Pancras is so length-limited that 800s with specially short coaches are required, how are 12 car 360s acceptable?