EMR still useless

[Eloise]

I have always understood that they are, but does any of that stand now?

In the franchise document between DfT and TOC but not in the Track Access Contract these days between TOC and Network Rail.

Re converting ECS to passenger, adding in extra calls adds in extra time to schedules and risks busting crew diagrams, or infringing on maintenance access. Generally the more you infringe on the Section 4 times the more likely you are to have evening and weekend timetable variations. There really has to be a fine balancing act.

 

[D1537]

it is a shame that the West Midlands last trains are so early , compared to Milton Keynes and Northampton , who get last trains up to 0134
Are the 2230 and 2330 Avanti Wolverhampton trains no longer running ?

They are, but not on a Saturday, which of course is the night that most people are likely to have a night out in London. I'm sure that "well ... engineering work" is the reason, but it's just shoddy customer service which pushes people away from the railways.

 

[Jimini]

it is a shame that the West Midlands last trains are so early , compared to Milton Keynes and Northampton , who get last trains up to 0134
Are the 2230 and 2330 Avanti Wolverhampton trains no longer running ?

I'm afaid not, and the 2142 ex. Euston is timed to run on the slow lines, so doesn't get anywhere fast (MKC 2230 / Rubgy 2254 / Cov 2303 / BHI 2314 / New Street 2325 etc. etc.).

Pretty pathetic really.

 

[D1537]

I'm afaid not, and the 2142 ex. Euston is timed to run on the slow lines, so doesn't get anywhere fast (MKC 2230 / Rubgy 2254 / Cov 2303 / BHI 2314 / New Street 2325 etc. etc.).

Pretty pathetic really.

The 2330 ex-Euston is the same every night of the week. It takes 90 minutes to get to Rugby, which mostly involves sitting in MKC for 20 minutes.

(Although this week it goes via Stafford, so if you want Cov or Brum, you're on a bus from Rugby).

 

[Jimini]

The 2330 ex-Euston is the same every night of the week. It takes 90 minutes to get to Rugby, which mostly involves sitting in MKC for 20 minutes.

(Although this week it goes via Stafford, so if you want Cov or Brum, you're on a bus from Rugby).

A bus at 0100 from Rugby to Cov / Brum? Glamorous eh

 

[IanXC]

It's a shame there's not a convenient set of fully-crewed empties running back from Liverpool that way at around the same time

Referencing the thread talking about turning ECS moves into passenger trains, this is exactly the kind of situation where they should be on a day where the service is disrupted. Perhaps in this case not calling at all the local stations on the Hope Valley (would probably have added too much delay).

I'm a bit confused as to what happened on the day in question though, at Liverpool:

1R78 2035 cancelled arrival
1R80 2135 cancelled arrival
1Z80 2135 special arrival
1L21 2137 departure cancelled
5L54 2159 empties departure ran

1L21 arrives into Nottingham (where I believe all the relevant crew are based) at 0047
5L54 arrives into Nottingham at 0040

It would seem an odd situation where this crew refused 7 minutes of overtime - perhaps the question was not even asked?

 

[M7R]

My original issue was we went to Nottingham for a gig which finished around 22:30, however our options back after 21:30 were very little with a good 2 hour or so wait between 21:30 and the 23:30 train (there’s not much leaving around the 22:30 mark).

this meant the train was a no go for us and we drove in, (waiting for the 23:30 wasn’t an option it would be too late back, plus as we was driving to a station to then get the train into town it wasn’t like we could have a few beers anyway)

 

[Robertj21a]

My original issue was we went to Nottingham for a gig which finished around 22:30, however our options back after 21:30 were very little with a good 2 hour or so wait between 21:30 and the 23:30 train (there’s not much leaving around the 22:30 mark).

this meant the train was a no go for us and we drove in, (waiting for the 23:30 wasn’t an option it would be too late back, plus as we was driving to a station to then get the train into town it wasn’t like we could have a few beers anyway)

So, the gig finished 'around 22.30' but the 23.30 is 'too late'. How frequent do you want these late night trains to run?

 

[BlockBackBobby]

Where was the gig? Rock City must be a decent 15 minute walk to the train station plus by the time it takes to get out I’d say a 23:30 train is almost perfect for your needs.

 

[m_m]

I think an hourly service out of Nottingham to reasonably dense outlying settlements isn't too much to ask for.

People have moved away from commuting to work everyday and towards leisure travel - the railway can adapt....or not. But if it doesn't adapt....what next?

 

[robbeech]

But if it doesn't adapt....what next?

We will lose even more services and we will go in the car more often if we have the ability to.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think an hourly service out of Nottingham to reasonably dense outlying settlements isn't too much to ask for.

People have moved away from commuting to work everyday and towards leisure travel - the railway can adapt....or not. But if it doesn't adapt....what next?

How late?
The earlier comment was that a gig finished about 22.30 but waiting for the 23.30 would be too late. It didn't seem to suggest that it wasn't running late enough.

 

[TravelDream]

I certainly can’t go to see a show in Nottingham and get home on the Robin Hood line unless it finishes particularly early (and on a Friday or Saturday evening I wouldn’t entertain the idea anyway due to the clientele) due to those connections it makes getting home from working in London more difficult too. To the point where I am going to be using the car more.

Not in EMR land, but I always find the last train of the night to be perfectly fine if there's a big event on.
I'd never catch a late train otherwise unless in a group.

 

[Jozhua]

I just got stuck in Worksop this weekend - I had to spend twice as much (9.50 Vs 4.50) to spend two hours going via Lincoln...

Someone else got caught out trying to get TO Worksop on the train back towards Nottingham...

Also worth noting, there is no bus service between Mansfield and Worksop, due to it usually being served by the train.

EMR is an absolute dire disaster. Northern has somewhat recovered these days to a more acceptable service, although many of the connect routes suffer from overcrowding due to the fact the 195 fleet is too short.

 

[M7R]

To be honest we have cut down on some of our trips to Nottingham and Leicester and even Matlock as the trains not worth it, last time I checked big gaps, who knows if you will get a seat if it does run…shame as I used to love going everywhere on the train

 

[Jozhua]

To be honest we have cut down on some of our trips to Nottingham and Leicester and even Matlock as the trains not worth it, last time I checked big gaps, who knows if you will get a seat if it does run…shame as I used to love going everywhere on the train

Same, I was hoping moving back to the Midlands to see my friends more, but this just hasn't worked out due to the disruption on the trains.

As much as I like traveling by train, I have a limited amount of free time and energy...

Of course this means a large decline in my standard of living, as I don't have any alternative

 

[Llandudno]

I just got stuck in Worksop this weekend - I had to spend twice as much (9.50 Vs 4.50) to spend two hours going via Lincoln...

Someone else got caught out trying to get TO Worksop on the train back towards Nottingham...

Also worth noting, there is no bus service between Mansfield and Worksop, due to it usually being served by the train.

EMR is an absolute dire disaster. Northern has somewhat recovered these days to a more acceptable service, although many of the connect routes suffer from overcrowding due to the fact the 195 fleet is too short.

Yep, that pretty much sums up travelling by EMR Regional..

 

[mattmtfc]

I just got stuck in Worksop this weekend - I had to spend twice as much (9.50 Vs 4.50) to spend two hours going via Lincoln...

Someone else got caught out trying to get TO Worksop on the train back towards Nottingham...

Also worth noting, there is no bus service between Mansfield and Worksop, due to it usually being served by the train.

EMR is an absolute dire disaster. Northern has somewhat recovered these days to a more acceptable service, although many of the connect routes suffer from overcrowding due to the fact the 195 fleet is too short.

Catch the sherwood arrow to Ollerton then the 14 or 15 to Mansfield at 25 past or 5 to the hour from briar road.

 

[Jozhua]

Catch the sherwood arrow to Ollerton then the 14 or 15 to Mansfield at 25 past or 5 to the hour from briar road.

Yeah I saw this, which would have been good if going to Mansfield. But it ended up being more efficient for me to go via Lincoln as I was headed to Nottingham.

Either way, very unfortunate.

 

[STINT47]

The bus and going via Lincoln is all fine except that we would like a reliable train service. The robin hood line and other local routes ran well for years under EMT. Whilst the trains were getitng old and shabby and a single 153 was not great when one turned up at least trains ran. EMR took over the franchise and their first major change was a new timetable that feel apart within a month. Now almost a year later services have still not been restored, there are no confimed dates as to when or even if they will be and short notice cancelations are still to common.

 

[Jozhua]

The bus and going via Lincoln is all fine except that we would like a reliable train service. The robin hood line and other local routes ran well for years under EMT. Whilst the trains were getitng old and shabby and a single 153 was not great when one turned up at least trains ran. EMR took over the franchise and their first major change was a new timetable that feel apart within a month. Now almost a year later services have still not been restored, there are no confimed dates as to when or even if they will be and short notice cancelations are still to common.

I agree - honestly having the current service pattern be delivered reliably is the minimum that should be done with the route.

Really I'd like to see it move to a tram train, which would provide significantly better service.

 

[ChrisC]

I just got stuck in Worksop this weekend - I had to spend twice as much (9.50 Vs 4.50) to spend two hours going via Lincoln...

Someone else got caught out trying to get TO Worksop on the train back towards Nottingham...

Also worth noting, there is no bus service between Mansfield and Worksop, due to it usually being served by the train.

EMR is an absolute dire disaster. Northern has somewhat recovered these days to a more acceptable service, although many of the connect routes suffer from overcrowding due to the fact the 195 fleet is too short.

I can’t disagree with you that at times during the these past 2 years the situation with EMR, especially on the route from Nottingham to Mansfield and Worksop, has been dire. The daytime frequency between Nottingham and Mansfield has been cut by 50% with still no signs that the previous timetable will ever return. Nearly every train of the day had been running at least 5 minutes late with numerous cancellations and terrible overcrowding on Saturdays.

However, my experience of the Robin Hood Line is that since Christmas there has been quite an improvement with very few cancellations and most trains running slightly more to time. Regarding getting stuck at Worksop, or even reaching Worksop in recent weeks has been cancellations of Northern trains between Sheffield and Lincoln rather than EMR cancellations.

A few weeks ago I travelled from Hucknall to Harrogate and by travelling via Worksop and splitting tickets at Sheffield I could have saved a few pounds. I decided against it and got a through any permitted return as that allowed the flexibility of travelling via a number of different routes. I travelled out via Worksop, Retford and York but decided the easiest route back was changing at Leeds and Worksop. I set off from Harrogate and arrived in Leeds to find the Northern Leeds to Lincoln train was being terminated at Sheffield. Having an any permitted through ticket fortunately allowed me to travel via Nottingham instead.

I’m currently in Newcastle for a few days, and following the experiences of the Harrogate trip I decided to spend more and get an any permitted Off Peak Return from Hucknall to Newcastle rather than saving money by splitting at Worksop. So pleased I did and that I looked at live trains before setting off. On the morning I travelled, last Thursday, the Northern train I was due to catch between Worksop and Retford had been cancelled, which would have meant a wait of 1hr 40min at Worksop and another long wait at Retford. With my any permitted ticket I was able to travel via Nottingham, where incidentally the Northern train to Leeds was also cancelled. After a wait of almost an hour in Nottingham I was able to travel via Grantham, changing into my original planned train at Doncaster.

Travelling from stations like Hucknall and Mansfield to the north via Worksop is currently still very unreliable but Northern cancellations have recently been more of a problem to me than EMR. The main inconvenience is still the lack of half hourly trains south of Mansfield resulting in hour long waits for connections when travelling via Nottingham. For my return journey from Newcastle tomorrow morning I’m planning on changing at York, Retford and Worksop but I will be keeping a very close eye on live trains departures just in case I have to suddenly change my route to avoid getting stuck at Retford or Worksop.

 

[LowLevel]

Work is being undertaken on the RHL at the moment with detailed timing runs being made, apparently to make sure the May timetable which will still be hourly is robust, but with passive provision for the December timetable to be half hourly should all things be signed off etc.

EMR have also implemented a new method of work to speed up the door operations on 170s whereby if the guard is in a back or middle cab and can see the whole train through the droplight window they can release the train doors as soon as it comes to a stand without checking from the platform - it all saves cumulative seconds.

 

[ChrisC]

Work is being undertaken on the RHL at the moment with detailed timing runs being made, apparently to make sure the May timetable which will still be hourly is robust, but with passive provision for the December timetable to be half hourly should all things be signed off etc.

EMR have also implemented a new method of work to speed up the door operations on 170s whereby if the guard is in a back or middle cab and can see the whole train through the droplight window they can release the train doors as soon as it comes to a stand without checking from the platform - it all saves cumulative seconds.

Good to hear. It’s actually not the hourly service that I find most convenient as I can live with that for local journeys. It’s the fact that the hourly train connects with very little at Nottingham for onward journeys. Everything departs just before or within a couple of minutes the RHL train arriving in Nottingham and on the return journey the RHL train deprts just before everything arrives. Long waits at Worksop have always been a problem. It’s not such a problem for me as I mainly use Hucknall station and so I have the tram as an alternative but far less convenient and more expensive than getting a through ticket. If I was in Mansfield I think I would be tempted to get the bus to Alfreton or Chesterfield for some journeys. Getting the bus to Nottingham is a pain as the Victoria Bus Station is such a long way from the station.

 

[boyaloud]

I think it’s really poor that the last service from Manchester to stoke on Trent is 2218 on weekdays and 2143 on Saturdays, not late enough for gigs and barely for most theatre shows. Considering stoke is pretty dire for entertainment options, its fast connections to Manchester really are its saving grace. Perhaps the worst intercity service in the country between two close by cities? Similarly the last train back from Birmingham is at 2222.

 

[martinsh]

I think it’s really poor that the last service from Manchester to stoke on Trent is 2218 on weekdays and 2143 on Saturdays, not late enough for gigs and barely for most theatre shows. Considering stoke is pretty dire for entertainment options, its fast connections to Manchester really are its saving grace. Perhaps the worst intercity service in the country between two close by cities? Similarly the last train back from Birmingham is at 2222.

But you can hardly blame EMR for that !

 

[m_m]

More emphasis on leisure travel is part of the future of the railway, this includes better evening and weekend services. It also includes rethinking engineering work timing imo!

At present, I feel like the railway is kicking back against this rather than accepting it.

 

[STINT47]

More emphasis on leisure travel is part of the future of the railway, this includes better evening and weekend services. It also includes rethinking engineering work timing imo!

At present, I feel like the railway is kicking back against this rather than accepting it.

Whilst I don't disagree persuading the unions to accept more late night and weekend working to run the extra services is going to be almost impossible. Although this is perhaps a topic better covered in an alternative thread.

 

[dk1]

More emphasis on leisure travel is part of the future of the railway, this includes better evening and weekend services. It also includes rethinking engineering work timing imo!

At present, I feel like the railway is kicking back against this rather than accepting it.

Not sure that's the case. Engineering is planned years ahead & changing rostering & agreements is never going to be straightforward.

 

[RH Liner]

I agree - honestly having the current service pattern be delivered reliably is the minimum that should be done with the route.

Really I'd like to see it move to a tram train, which would provide significantly better service.

Not so sure about that. The journey time on a tram train would surely by significantly longer, and would make the Pronto bus the more attractive alternative.
If the RHL is to remain hourly it apparently needs to be on the opposite half-hour for better connections at both ends.