Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[duncanp]

Perhaps the increase in energy prices will force some people to return to the office, as the article below outlines.

The calculation of whether it is more cost effective to work from home or go to the office will be different for everyone, but the higher the energy price, the more people will conclude that it is cheaper to go into the office every day.

Britons who wfh could pay an extra £209 in energy costs this winter

Working from home could lead to household energy bills being stretched by an extra £209 a month this winter, a new survey has revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Is this the end for working from home? Britons who shun the office could pay an extra £2,500-a-year in energy costs, warn experts, who say rising bills could drive people back to their desks​

• Working from home may lead to £2,500 extra on annual energy bill, survey finds
• Experts suggest home workers will flock to the office this winter to save money
• Energy regulator Ofgem announced its price cap will jump to 3,549 in October
• Bills are predicted to rise again to £5,400 in January and even further in spring

Working from home could lead to household energy bills being stretched by an extra £2,500 each year, a new survey has revealed.

Experts suggest home workers will flock back to the office this winter to avoid the severe energy bills.

Energy regulator Ofgem announced on Friday its price cap would increase by 80 per cent to £3,549 per year in October.

Bills are predicted to rise again to £5,400 in January and even further to £6,600 in spring according to forecasts from energy analysts Cornwall Insight, The Telegraph reports.

The average British worker is heading into the office one and a half days per week, meaning remote working will likely lead to an energy bill of £789 in January, compared to £580 for those going into work.

Sarah Coles, of stockbroker Hargreaves Lansdown, described the 'horrible scale' of the energy price increase.

'Even for those who consider themselves to be comfortable, this is a serious enough crisis that they're going to need to find new solutions,' she said.

'People may have to reconsider how they use their heating, so instead of leaving it on all day they focus on trying to retain as much heat as possible in the rooms they're using, through things like more drought-proofing.'

In May, it was revealed three in four adults in Britain are now travelling to work at some point during the week - up from two-thirds a month ago, an official survey suggested today.

But the data published by the Office for National Statistics also found around a third of people are continuing to spend part of their week working at home.

The figures point to a shift in certain types of public behaviour over the past two months - a period coinciding with a steady fall in Covid-19 infections.

Consultancy Advances Workplace Associates claims average workplace attendance is 29 per cent across UK offices.

The Office for National Statistics said in July that 37 per cent of Londoners were working away from the office, compared to 14 per cent before the pandemic.

Every day energy uses can add significantly to monthly bills. Boiling a kettle three times a day will cost £8 per month or £100 a year, under the October energy price cap, Citizen's Advice Bureau has found.

Similarly, running a desktop computer eight hours a day will cost £35.68 per month.

MoneySavingExpert founder Martin Lewis, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Friday: 'I've been accused of catastrophising over this situation. Well, the reason I have catastrophised is this is a catastrophe, plain and simple. If we do not get further government intervention on top of what was announced in May, lives will be lost this winter.'

The consumer champion also said the latest rise in the cap means some people will pay up to £10,000 a year in bills. He warned that there is no cap on the maximum you pay – but the cap is actually a maximum cost per unit that firms can charge for gas and electricity. Currently, this equates to £1,971 a year for the average home.

Ofgem said that from October 1 the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 52p per kWh for electricity customers and a standing charge of 46p per day.

The equivalent per unit level for a typical gas customer is 15p per kWh with a standing charge of 28p per day.

Ofgem's chief executive Jonathan Brearley warned of the hardship energy prices will cause this winter and urged the incoming prime minister and new Cabinet 'to provide an additional and urgent response to continued surging energy prices'.

He also said that the gas price this winter was 15 times more than the cost two years ago.

The regulator said the increase reflected the continued rise in global wholesale gas prices, which began to surge as the pandemic eased, and had been driven still higher by Russia slowly switching off gas supplies to Europe.

Ofgem also warned that energy prices could get 'significantly worse' next year. The regulator said that some suppliers might start increasing the amount that direct debit customers pay before October 1, to spread out payments, but any money taken by suppliers will only ever be spent on supplying energy to households.

 

[Howardh]

Working from home with the heating on still might be cheaper than commuting + parking, buying cafe food + coffee etc. Has anyone here number-crunched and come to that conclusion?

If someone WFH's are they entitles to a tax rebate for the energy used?

 

[najaB]

If someone WFH's are they entitles to a tax rebate for the energy used?

There is a small rebate, yes. I think it's £6 a week.

 

[Mojo]

Are there any companies in the UK whose main business is large scale (say hundreds of properties) domestic property rental? As well as professionalising the business they would facilitate long term tenancies which landlords with one or two properties are reluctant to grant in case they need to raise capital by selling.

Yes, there are quite a few in London.

Probably the most notable Quintain Living who have thousands of flats and flat blocks built as “Build to Rent” around Wembley Park, which seems to be almost entirely rentals.

 

[johncrossley]

If you've got night-storage heating then it is automatically warm in the daytime, meaning WFH always makes sense.

If you are retired it might be worth spending an extended period on holiday in a warm climate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a small rebate, yes. I think it's £6 a week.

This only applies if your employer REQUIRES you to work from home, though. If you have an office option it cannot be claimed.

 

[JamesT]

This only applies if your employer REQUIRES you to work from home, though. If you have an office option it cannot be claimed.

That is the case now. During the pandemic things were a little looser so many people could claim it as it was essentially the government forcing WfH.

 

[Howardh]

If you are retired it might be worth spending an extended period on holiday in a warm climate.

Thinking if people WFH and never need to go to the office, they could work from a warm hotel room or lobby overseas! Bet that's been done before, and if it has if productivity is the same then no issues?


Also thinking if it becomes too costly to heat a school, will they be forced to go back to covid on-line teaching? I doubt it because the parents might not be able to WFH with them, and those houses would need heating too so might be more cost-efficient to have 30 pupils in a schoolroom heated rather than 30 spread across their homes.

Would the authorities allow the pupils (and patients in hospital) to be fed cold meals to save on cooking? Possibly cancelling the only warm meal some get in a day? Crikey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is the case now. During the pandemic things were a little looser so many people could claim it as it was essentially the government forcing WfH.

Yes, that's also correct. I was able to claim it during the pandemic but not now, because I wasn't offered the option to work in an office then but I am now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they are not what buyers want, they should be knocked down and replaced with homes fit for the 21st century, rather than whatever the mill owners thought was cost effective a hundred years ago.

The standard of housing as built in the Port Sunlight area of the Wirral by the Lever family for their workforce as a philanthropic employer was far superior to what was normally available and even today, those properties are much in demand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2022 ==

Working from home with the heating on still might be cheaper than commuting + parking, buying cafe food + coffee etc. Has anyone here number-crunched and come to that conclusion?

And no worry about rail strikes making travel to work difficult.

 

[Bantamzen]

Thinking if people WFH and never need to go to the office, they could work from a warm hotel room or lobby overseas! Bet that's been done before, and if it has if productivity is the same then no issues?

I'm definitely thinking of going into the office more often, but unfortunately can't do the overseas thing with my work's kit without express permission from the Queen....

Also thinking if it becomes too costly to heat a school, will they be forced to go back to covid on-line teaching? I doubt it because the parents might not be able to WFH with them, and those houses would need heating too so might be more cost-efficient to have 30 pupils in a schoolroom heated rather than 30 spread across their homes.

Would the authorities allow the pupils (and patients in hospital) to be fed cold meals to save on cooking? Possibly cancelling the only warm meal some get in a day? Crikey.

Now this is where things do get serious. If schools start kicking kids out again, this time because they can't afford to heat the buildings, we are seriously going to massively harm the kid's futures. Especially where parents are unable to be at home for them without taking time off work, and possibly having to lose wages to do so. And as you say children who rely on school for their only warm meal a day are really going to suffer.

A perfect storm is brewing here if we are not careful.

 

[Howardh]

Just out of interest I've e-mailed my local councillor here in Bolton suggesting vacant + unused units in the Vaults (an "underground" group of restuarants/pubs beneath the Market Hall shopping complex) could be opened by the council at very little cost as the whole area is heated as it is so no added heating necessary. This area could be used with donated tables/chairs for folks to take their flasks and snacks, sit down for a while and keep warm. The centre has toilets and free wifi (that I've never been able to access...) and all that would be needed are volunteers (like myself!) to supervise and tidy up.

Last time I visited the Vaults I noticed at least one vacant area.

Regarding schools "kicking out" kids as they can't afford the heating, I'm sure the unions will be involved if temperatures are allowed to drop. If kids have to stay in schools, it may be a case of mass lessons in the school hall to save heating classrooms. In my schooliedays we had the power cuts and candles (yes, I'm 147 years old....) so our first lesson of the day was in the school dining hall with two other classes (I think our scheduled classrooms were too dark and/or cold).

 

[PTR 444]

I'm definitely thinking of going into the office more often, but unfortunately can't do the overseas thing with my work's kit without express permission from the Queen....


Now this is where things do get serious. If schools start kicking kids out again, this time because they can't afford to heat the buildings, we are seriously going to massively harm the kid's futures. Especially where parents are unable to be at home for them without taking time off work, and possibly having to lose wages to do so. And as you say children who rely on school for their only warm meal a day are really going to suffer.

A perfect storm is brewing here if we are not careful.

In this scenario, sending kids to school and workers to the office should be encouraged, as overall energy consumption is reduced with several people sharing the same room at once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In this scenario, sending kids to school and workers to the office should be encouraged, as overall energy consumption is reduced with several people sharing the same room at once.

Funding is also needed to allow schools to be made more energy efficient. Very commonly they are old, single glazed buildings.

 

[Howardh]

In this scenario, sending kids to school and workers to the office should be encouraged, as overall energy consumption is reduced with several people sharing the same room at once.

If alls schools took an extra week's holiday over Xmas (or maybe extend Feb half-term) and reduced the summer breaks, let's say they are currently open 15 weeks over late autumn/winter that would save one week's heating bill over the coldest and most expensive period, knocking 6%-ish off the overall bill.

 

[Dai Corner]

Funding is also needed to allow schools to be made more energy efficient. Very commonly they are old, single glazed buildings.

Even the 2004-built school I worked in had large gaps around the external doors letting in droughts. I'm told it cost a fortune to heat. It gained a few solar panels a year or two ago though.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the increase in energy prices will force some people to return to the office, as the article below outlines.

The calculation of whether it is more cost effective to work from home or go to the office will be different for everyone, but the higher the energy price, the more people will conclude that it is cheaper to go into the office every day.

Britons who wfh could pay an extra £209 in energy costs this winter

Working from home could lead to household energy bills being stretched by an extra £209 a month this winter, a new survey has revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Wasn't it a Daily Mail reporter, writing from home, that told other people to get back to work to boost the economy (read; help corporate landlords and the likes of Pret). Or maybe that was the Telegraph. Or more likely both..

Anyway...

Let's say someone works for around 230 days a year (5 days a week, with annual leave and bank holidays etc) that would mean almost £11 of extra spending per working day?

My wife works from a laptop and uses two screens. Now, an Intel PC can be quite power hungry compared to ARM (my Mac Mini uses around 20-30W in use) but for a laptop, I'd guess maybe around 40-50W? Two monitors, on medium brightness, perhaps 100W collectively. So, 150W. Lighting? Ceiling spot, 2-3W.

Heating wise, if she's home alone then she can heat the home office (spare room) and maybe the hall/kitchen and toilet. No need to heat the whole house.

There's also the cost of the Internet router and fibre ONT, but they're on 24/7 anyway.

So, how did the Daily Mail and its experts come to such a ridiculous figure? Was it based on a factory worker that is bringing the heavy machinery home to weld car parts or something?!

Ironically, even if it was approx £11 per day extra on your bill - is that enough to make it cheaper to go into the office, along with the inevitable coffee stop on the way in and buying lunch at Pret/M&S/Sainsburys?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If alls schools took an extra week's holiday over Xmas (or maybe extend Feb half-term) and reduced the summer breaks, let's say they are currently open 15 weeks over late autumn/winter that would save one week's heating bill over the coldest and most expensive period, knocking 6%-ish off the overall bill.

Meantime, how do the children / staff attending those (now closed) schools keep warm?

 

[Howardh]

Meantime, how do the children / staff attending those (now closed) schools keep warm?

In that case should we open schools over Xmas and half terms? Because during those holidays, er...how do they keep warm? It's a vicious circle and why we need community warm areas for everyone.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ironically, even if it was approx £11 per day extra on your bill - is that enough to make it cheaper to go into the office, along with the inevitable coffee stop on the way in and buying lunch at Pret/M&S/Sainsburys?

It would be cheaper for me to go into the office at £11 a day. Baildon > Leeds return £7.10, Tesco meal deal with clubcard £3.00. And I could make it cheaper still be using a West Yorkshire monthly MCard & take my own butties!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case should we open schools over Xmas and half terms? Because during those holidays, er...how do they keep warm? It's a vicious circle and why we need community warm areas for everyone.

Most people will just need to turn down the thermostat a bit from "T-shirt, shorts and barefoot" level to "fleece hoodie, joggers, shoes and socks" level. But for the fewer people who won't be able to afford to heat at all, community centres are probably a better idea as they're smaller so probably cheaper to heat.

 

[PTR 444]

Wasn't it a Daily Mail reporter, writing from home, that told other people to get back to work to boost the economy (read; help corporate landlords and the likes of Pret). Or maybe that was the Telegraph. Or more likely both..

Anyway...

Let's say someone works for around 230 days a year (5 days a week, with annual leave and bank holidays etc) that would mean almost £11 of extra spending per working day?

My wife works from a laptop and uses two screens. Now, an Intel PC can be quite power hungry compared to ARM (my Mac Mini uses around 20-30W in use) but for a laptop, I'd guess maybe around 40-50W? Two monitors, on medium brightness, perhaps 100W collectively. So, 150W. Lighting? Ceiling spot, 2-3W.

Heating wise, if she's home alone then she can heat the home office (spare room) and maybe the hall/kitchen and toilet. No need to heat the whole house.

There's also the cost of the Internet router and fibre ONT, but they're on 24/7 anyway.

So, how did the Daily Mail and its experts come to such a ridiculous figure? Was it based on a factory worker that is bringing the heavy machinery home to weld car parts or something?!

I guess it all depends on the individual’s situation. Somebody who walks or cycles to work, or already owns their own car might find going into work greatly offsets the extra energy cost, whereas for someone who needs to use public transport, that is an additional cost to the individual which in some cases would outweigh the saving in energy bills.

Ironically, even if it was approx £11 per day extra on your bill - is that enough to make it cheaper to go into the office, along with the inevitable coffee stop on the way in and buying lunch at Pret/M&S/Sainsburys?

You could save money though by preparing your lunch at home in advance rather than buying on the day. The trick is to cook in bulk at the weekend and eat portions of the meal over the course of a week. Or for cold food you could prepare it the night before each working day.

 

[Deltic1961]

The thing this thread shows is that everyone has a different situation. Some a well paid job close to home, others low paid and a big commute. Some live in a warm one bed flat whilst others in a draughty property from the 1800s. Some pensioners on a fixed income with no ability to go to Benidorm from October to March.

My friend lives in a warm one bedroom top floor flat heated by those below and pays literally nothing for energy at all. Irony is he's loaded, works for SSE at a local power station and is getting massive bonuses, pay rises and share options each year.

The system is completely broken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

along with the inevitable coffee stop on the way in and buying lunch at Pret/M&S/Sainsburys?

What's inevitable about any of those things? They are luxuries. Take a flask or thermal mug for on the train and make sandwiches, it takes minutes. In some offices you'll even be able to keep bread, butter and filling in the office and can make it at lunchtime, meaning no additional time cost, or you often see people with boxes of cereal on their desk if they have a permanent one.

 

[jon0844]

It would be cheaper for me to go into the office at £11 a day. Baildon > Leeds return £7.10, Tesco meal deal with clubcard £3.00. And I could make it cheaper still be using a West Yorkshire monthly MCard & take my own butties!

I am sure there are many examples where it's cheaper if you were somehow spending £11 at home on extra power/heat, but of course nobody is going to be spending £11 extra even with the pending price hike (or indeed the next hike in early 2023).

Perhaps someone with a gaming rig running at 400W or more, with a massive HDR OLED display at max brightness, might start to get nearer to that figure.. so those who are paid to play games from home (in a previous job, I was paid to review games and worked from home) might feel the pinch.

The average Joe on their company laptop? Not so much (besides the normal pinch from the higher cost of living).

 

[Howardh]

What's inevitable about any of those things? They are luxuries. Take a flask or thermal mug for on the train and make sandwiches, it takes minutes. In some offices you'll even be able to keep bread, butter and filling in the office and can make it at lunchtime, meaning no additional time cost, or you often see people with boxes of cereal on their desk if they have a permanent one.

That's something I always did when working. Collegues would pop to the pie shop/chippy/little chef etc and spend an hour's wages on food and drink, while my lunches and drinks cost a fraction.

 

[Dai Corner]

It would be cheaper for me to go into the office at £11 a day. Baildon > Leeds return £7.10, Tesco meal deal with clubcard £3.00. And I could make it cheaper still be using a West Yorkshire monthly MCard & take my own butties!

How do you value your time?

Two hours commuting at minimum wage would be about £20 (before tax and NI)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing this thread shows is that everyone has a different situation. Some a well paid job close to home, others low paid and a big commute. Some live in a warm one bed flat whilst others in a draughty property from the 1800s. Some pensioners on a fixed income with no ability to go to Benidorm from October to March.

My friend lives in a warm one bedroom top floor flat heated by those below and pays literally nothing for energy at all. Irony is he's loaded, works for SSE at a local power station and is getting massive bonuses, pay rises and share options each year.

The system is completely broken.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. The rental market is fairly broken, but people who make poor house purchase choices based on emotion rather than practicality have made their bed and just need to lie in it. It's the same as people who whine about being unable to park outside their house - if it's important to you, you need to buy a house with a driveway, and that may mean compromising on other things, e.g. a smaller house or a less desirable area.

 

[jon0844]

I guess it all depends on the individual’s situation. Somebody who walks or cycles to work, or already owns their own car might find going into work greatly offsets the extra energy cost, whereas for someone who needs to use public transport, that is an additional cost to the individual which in some cases would outweigh the saving in energy bills.

You could save money though by preparing your lunch at home in advance rather than buying on the day. The trick is to cook in bulk at the weekend and eat portions of the meal over the course of a week. Or for cold food you could prepare it the night before each working day.

The point was that it isn't costing someone £11 a day to work from home! More likely £2-3, if that.

So unless you can walk/cycle to work, the likelihood is that going into the office will be more expensive. And of course you could/should make your own lunch - but you'd eat that at home or at work?

The pending energy price rises will be terrible for everyone, but this article was just another cynical way of telling people to get back to offices.

Don't get me wrong, many jobs require going to a place of work. Many people also want to go to an office for the social interaction. I am not against working in an office!! The rail industry also needs people to travel. But, coming up with silly stories that working from home will cost you £2,500 is rather desperate reporting IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's something I always did when working. Collegues would pop to the pie shop/chippy/little chef etc and spend an hour's wages on food and drink, while my lunches and drinks cost a fraction.

Certainly anyone who's finding things tight who buys lunch from Pret or similar and a couple of three quid coffees each day needs to stop whining and cut out those luxuries. Even if you insist on "proper coffee" you can take your own ground and cafetiere/Aeropress to the office and have decent coffee for pence per cup, and you can make sandwiches, or even switch to a Tesco meal deal or Greggs pasty to halve the cost from the likes of Pret. And anyone who spends out three quid on a cup of tea and is short of money needs their head examining, it's exactly the same as if you make it yourself, costing about 10p if that.

Trick for flasks by the way, flask tea tastes fine if you carry milk separately. It's the "cooking" of the milk that makes it taste manky.

No problem with people spending on those luxuries if they can afford it, but if things are getting tight then they are easy things to cut.