England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

[Darandio]

I wouldn't be so cynical.
Most likely that particular establishment has simply deemed the business from those without the app is worth less than the administrative costs of dealing with T+T data for themselves.

Seems a little disproportinate, don't you think, to boycott an entire fast food chain (we presume) because of one account from a forum user of a bad policy at one location...?

Then they quite frankly deserve to be boycotted. Any company that decides to refuse me because of not having the app won't see me again and i'll make sure friends and family are fully aware as well.

 

[alex397]

So I've been in various establishments over the last few days.

Everywhere has the QR code for the test and trace app. Im longer asked to fill in my name and number on a sheet as I previously was, but have not been asked to make sure I use the App in any place. So this potentially might mean less people are giving their details now - most people I know don't have the app yet.
One rather concerning thing I've seen is a business in the local area have said on social media that no one will be served if they don't use the App - what about people with old smartphones which can't download it, people with traditional mobile phones, and people who don't even have any phones (they still exist)? Seems over the top to me. Also, I can't believe a business who probably needs all the business it can get right now is being like this.
An independent pub near me has been using their own app since they reopened, which they use for test and trace and for ordering/paying for drinks - it strongly encourages people to use it, but is happy to serve the traditional way if people can't use it or don't have a smartphone. That seems more sensible than what this other business is doing.

I have downloaded the app myself, but I'm not sure I feel comfortable using it yet. But I feel I should be - the countries who have been relatively successful with Corona have had a functioning test and trace system, which has meant they no longer have as strong restrictions as we still have.

 

[py_megapixel]

Then they quite frankly deserve to be boycotted. Any company that decides to refuse me because of not having the app won't see me again and i'll make sure friends and family are fully aware as well.

I'm just suggesting it seems a little disproportinate on one occasion...

• It could be an incorrect policy set by one particular manager at one particular location
• It might be a new system which the staff aren't fully familiar with yet
• Something may have been miscommunicated to staff
• Our esteemed moron of a Prime Minister and his equally incompetent Cabinet may have failed to communicate guidance far enough in advance for them to adapt properly, or the guidance may have been ambiguously worded (doesn't apply to this situtation but has applied in the past)
• Hell, they might even have just run out of paper T+T forms!

 

[DelayRepay]

I went to a venue this morning. They'd positioned a member of staff by the entrance to help people use the app. The problem was two fold.

Firstly, he was helping people to download and set up the app if they didn't have it. He did this whilst blocking the entrance so a queue formed in the street, blocking the pavement. In a time when we are supposed to be keeping our distance from other this was less than ideal.

Secondly, he was standing very close to people while showing them how to use the app - less than the required 1m distance.

Thirdly when you did get inside, there was only one person serving, so there was a queue for service and delays in giving people their drinks,, causing more crowding. I assume the door keeper had been re-assigned from the counter.

Overall, not really impressed. Good intentions but badly executed.

 

[island]

Won't help you if - as I suspect is the case - the business in question simply does not have the means to record your details any other way.

I have printed off some cards with my name and number on them, and a reminder that the data are to be deleted after 21 days.

 

[py_megapixel]

I have printed off some cards with my name and number on them, and a reminder that the data are to be deleted after 21 days.

That's rather impressive dedication, I'll admit. Though if it's a nonstandard thing, I think the chances of them actually remembering to get rid of the data are pretty slim.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is directly against the government guidance on collection of data for T&T in England - "Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry"

Which doesn't have the backing of law, so they shouldn't have used "must", it's "should" and there is nothing to prevent venues doing this.

 

[DelayRepay]

Which doesn't have the backing of law, so they shouldn't have used "must", it's "should" and there is nothing to prevent venues doing this.

Can't they make it a condition of displaying the code, given the poster design is presumably owned by the NHS?

 

[Trackman]

Sky news now reporting the problem has been fixed.

Coronavirus: NHS tracing app problem that left tens of thousands of tests unlogged has been fixed, government says

The issue had appeared to undermine the app, which warns people when they have come into contact with anyone who tests positive.

news.sky.com

A problem that prevented tens of thousands of people from logging the result of their coronavirus tests on the new NHS contact-tracing app has been fixed, according to a Department of Health spokesman.

In a statement, they said: "Everyone who receives a positive test result can log their result on the app.



"A minority of people, such as hospital patients, who were unable to log their positive result can now request a code when contacted by NHS Test and Trace to input on their app."

 

[Yew]

I don't see as it's really an issue so long as you only do it once you've left the venue concerned. I'm not carrying it around, I'm just scanning it when I get home.

We're not going to run out of QR codes or GUIDs any time soon.

 

[Richard Scott]

How do they check you have the app and used it? I have no intention of downloading it so if an establishment insists then they won't get my business (not that there's many places I can go now as everywhere around is a no go zone).

 

[bengley]

How do they check you have the app and used it? I have no intention of downloading it so if an establishment insists then they won't get my business (not that there's many places I can go now as everywhere around is a no go zone).

They're supposed to check the screen on your phone which confirms you've scanned it

 

[PeterC]

The NHS's own publicity doesn't give a clear message

https://twitter.com/BucksCouncil/status/1309524239809159169

The NHS COVID-19 App is live – you can download it today on iOS and Android. Many venues now need to display a QR code for customers/clients & visitors to sign in. Find out if this effects your business or organisation

https://crowd.in/2U19uV

As I don't wear a tinfoil hat I would be happy to use the app but neither do I feel the need to get the latest phone every year which leaves me with an incompatible smartphone.

 

[STINT47]

If you can only enter venues with the app that leaves my 90 year old grandparents rather stuck.

The only phone that the own has a cable running out of it and if shown a QR code they might say that looks like a strange painting.

If pubs and restaurants are doing so well that they can turn away business then good luck to them.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've just been refused eat in service at a fast food takeaway in Manchester as I didn't have the app and have no intentions of downloading it.

Just another way of controlling us and imposing de-facto restrictions to anyone who doesn't blindly obey Herr Johnson's orders as far as I'm concerned.

I opted to take away as I'm on break at work so couldn't venture too far away. I then had to sit(!) And wait for my food to be prepared for 10 minutes.

They will be on various delivery services apps, so find each on and give them a review. And if you have a TripAdvsior account, give them a review there too. You'd be surprised how effective that can be!

 

[DelayRepay]

I would not encourage this, but it may be useful to know that the app allows you to delete any check ins. So it would be possible for someone to scan in with the app (which negates the need to sign in using the paper forms). Then after leaving the venue simply delete the sign in.

I feel much more comfortable using the app because nobody else has my data.

 

[87 027]

Which is pretty crap if you are only in there for 20 minutes from 8am!

I completely agree! The best implemented system I've encountered so far is in a cafe where each table had a piece of paper on which you wrote your contact details and arrival time, retained it for the duration of your visit, then added your departure time and handed it in at the till on the way out. If the NHS app allowed checkouts as well as checkins that would do so much more to filter out potential false alarms where people never actually overlap

 

[mawallace]

I think the regulations make it clear:-

Requirement to display QR Code
6.—(1) A relevant person must in an appropriate place display and make available a QR Code at relevant premises that they occupy or operate with a view to achieving the aim in paragraph (2).

(2) The aim is to enable an individual who seeks to enter the relevant premises in a case set out in regulation 9 and has a smartphone in their possession to scan the QR code with that smartphone as, or immediately after, they enter the premises.

so.. they are required to display the code - not insist that you scan it. In fact it goes on..

Requirement to request certain details of individuals
7.—(1) This regulation applies where an individual (“A”) seeks to enter relevant premises in a case set out in regulation 9.

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the relevant person who operates or occupies those premises must request that A provides to them the details set out in regulation 10.

(3) The requirement in paragraph (2) does not apply where A has scanned the QR Code displayed and made available in accordance with regulation 6(2).


so.. they have to ask for your contact details IF you do not scan the code.

they can only refuse entry IF you do not provide your details:-

Requirement to refuse entry

16.—(1) Where paragraph (3) applies a relevant person must take all reasonable steps to prevent entry by an individual to the relevant premises that they occupy or operate.

(2) Where paragraph (4) applies a relevant person must take all reasonable steps to prevent entry by every member of a group which seeks to enter those premises.

(3) This paragraph applies where the relevant person becomes aware that an individual has not provided the details in regulation 10, having been requested to do so in accordance with regulation 7.


By the way - it's only the following businesses that have to insist on requesting details -


1.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), services provided for the purposes of consuming food or drink on the premises, (including in seating made available adjacent to the premises) including by—

(a)restaurants, including restaurants and dining rooms in hotels or members’ clubs;

(b)cafes, including workplace canteens;

(c)bars, including bars in hotels or members’ clubs;

(d)public houses.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not include services provided to an individual who is homeless, within the meaning of section 175 of the Housing Act 1996(1).

 

[yorksrob]

I think I said this in the original thread last time this came around, but I shan’t be installing the App as I always leave Bluetooth turned off on my phone except the handful of times per year that I need it on.

Is there any point installing this App with Bluetooth turned off, I assume venues will still be keeping either the trck.to QR codes or other track/trace formats that don’t go through this App? As an aside, not yet seen any venues in real life that have this NHS code on display yet.

That's interesting. I've installed the app, but I never have bluetooth turned on, so I'm also not sure how useful it is. It does tell me my home area of Wakefield is high risk though !

Indeed - when people say they are "entitled" to an alternative to following a procedure set by a private business on their own premises then, as long as that policy does not discriminate against a protected characteristic, an acceptable alternative is not using that business.

If Asda suddenly said you had to prebook a day in advance to go shopping, people would be angry - but there's nothing they can do, as they have no right to go to Asda!

Perhaps there needs to be more control over private business ?

(The question is rhetorical - I say yes.)

But that said, I've only come across one business that required the app and didn't offer a written alternative. They lied and said it was "the law".

I have the app and have enabled bluetooth in good faith (as the app says it doesn't work without it).

My phone doesn't scan anything since I dropped it on a platform though.

 

[py_megapixel]

Perhaps there needs to be more control over private business ?

Yes there does, but I don't think that should extend to an obligation to serve anyone and everyone.

Perhaps a more sensible course of action would be to find some way of amending the Equality Act to make smartphone ownership illegal to discriminate against[*]. My first thought was that possession of any particular object should simply be a proteccted characteristic, but that creates daft side-effects such as preventing businesses from running events that require entry tickets.

[*] This would also put an end to the stupidity that is FirstGroup charging more for paper tickets than mobile tickets

 

[Freightmaster]

I went to a venue this morning. They'd positioned a member of staff by the entrance to help people use the app. The problem was two fold.

Firstly, he was helping people to download and set up the app if they didn't have it. He did this whilst blocking the entrance so a queue formed in the street, blocking the pavement. In a time when we are supposed to be keeping our distance from other this was less than ideal.

Out of curiosity, what were they doing about people (like me!) who don't own a smartphone in the first place??





MARK

 

[PeterY]

I don't have a smart phone and neither do I want one. Even if I did, I doubt that I'd download the app. I enjoy my privacy now but that's a long story.
I visited a cafe today and was asked for my number but what's to say I gave the correct number or not.

 

[py_megapixel]

I visited a cafe today and was asked for my number but what's to say I gave the correct number or not.

If you gave a wrong number - which I consider a rather objectionable thing to do, but that's beside the point; what you choose to do isn't really my business at all - I strongly hope you ensured it was one of the reserved numbers which are guaranteed never to connect.

Otherwise, there is a not-insignificant chance that your desire for privacy triggers an inadvertant and needless self-isolation period - or at least an extremely awkward phone call - for someone random elsewhere in the country.

List here: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-tel...tion-for-industry/numbering/numbers-for-drama

 

[bspahh]

This is a public Facebook message from David Bonsall. He writes: "I am a senior researcher at the University of Oxford, Nuffield dept of medicine, in the pathogen dynamics groups. We advise the Test and Trace Programme in the U.K., Google, and tracing app developments internationally. I am also a clinician at the John Radcliffe Hospital) "

On the NHS COVID-19 App: Last 24 hrs I’ve provided the polite version of the following to C4, ITV,BBC, Radio 5, Sky News, Times Radio, LBC. I thought I’d answer a few frequently asked questions more directly, while our communications officer isn’t watching. ** edit at bottom for solution to the minority of tests that didn't link to the app. Spoiler, they do now!**
Is it going to steal my data?
- No its completely private. All your data stays on the phone, if you delete the app, you delete the data. Facebook, on the other hand...
Is it going to track me?
- No it doesn’t know where you are. Uber, Dominos pizza, google maps, on the other hand...
Is Dominic Cummings...
- No
Why has it taken so long?
- It was hard. We tested it, made it better, tested it again, made it better, now it’s ready. And we helped Google develop their system. And we beat most states in America
How many people need to download it to work?
- Two. If you download it and I download it and I get infected and I notify you and you don’t visit your gran, Granny lives
What happens if we all download it?
- Maths shows it could stop the epidemic.
But Dominic Cummings...
- Just no
Why did the Isle of Wight app not work?
- Actually it did. It looks like it stopped their epidemic. There were problems with iPhones.
Are there not still problems with iPhones
- Yes. The few people with iphones earlier than 6S should write Apple and complain. If you have a later version you should download the app, stop the epidemic, and save the old folks with outdated smartphones.
What about the fines for not following the notifications? Those aren’t fair!
- What about the local outbreak and deaths you could cause by not following them? also what about the £500 you receive if you get notified and can’t work from home?
Yeah but “False Positives”...
- The only way you can get a notification is by being close to someone who tests positive for COVID-19 for a prolonged period.
Yeah but its not 100% accurate at measuring distance so there are false positives
- Do you think the virus cares if it’s 2 meters or 2.3 meters?
Yeah but...
-If I asked you to remember all your 2meter 15minute contacts in the last 3 days would you give me an accurate answer? Where’s your tape measure and your stop watch?
So is it more accurate than manual contact tracing?
-Yes probably. And it can notify people you don’t know.
How else is it better?
- well it’s a lot more private - you don’t need to give personal details about you or anyone else
Anything else?
- it uses computers so it’s fast enough to find people BEFORE they infect others...which is sort of the point.
Anything else?
- it doesn’t require millions of netflix subscriptions.
Anything else?
- It’s a quick way to check in to bars (I like bars) and it’s a faster way to book a test without navigating a website designed by a Vogon
There are no tests?
- Fair point. Not my department. But will keep the pressure on.
Its not a silver bullet is it? It’s just a cherry on the cake?
- No. If we all download it, it’s A GOLD-PLATED MISSILE, which relatively speaking cost one-thousandth of a cherries worth of cake, compared to another lockdown.
Is it going to work?
- not unless you download it.....give it a go. It’s really rather good.
(And well done to our group at Oxford, Alan Turing Institute, department of health, NHSX, Google, Pivotal, Zuhlke, and beyond who’ve all contributed...it’s been a long time coming...and it’s something to be proud of. Well done!)
**Edit from the App team: "Everyone who receives a positive test result can now log their result on the #NHSCOVID19app A minority of people, such as hospital patients, who were unable to log their positive result will now be able to request a code when contacted by NHS Test and Trace to input on the app."
https://twitter.com/OxfordV.../status/1309954253117624321...
(I am a senior researcher at the University of Oxford, Nuffield dept of medicine, in the pathogen dynamics groups. We advise the Test and Trace Programme in the U.K., Google, and tracing app developments internationally. I am also a clinician at the John Radcliffe Hospital)

https://www.facebook.com/david.g.bonsall/posts/10101394116288805

 

[Mintona]

The beautician my wife visits has told her that she needs to check in with the app when she next visits. So my wife is going to download it, enter incorrect information, scan it and immediately delete the app.

I’m going a step further and not visiting any establishment that requires me to check in.

 

[DelayRepay]

The beautician my wife visits has told her that she needs to check in with the app when she next visits. So my wife is going to download it, enter incorrect information, scan it and immediately delete the app.

You don't need to delete the app, you can delete individual check-ins. But even if you don't, nobody else can see where you've checked in. If there is a need, the authorities will generate an 'alert' to everyone who's checked in at a particular venue at a particular time, but they don't know who the alert's gone to.

But I might comment that my friend's partner is a beautician and they've had an outbreak at their salon. It seems a customer tested positive, and told T&T she's been in the salon. They had two staff and at least one other customer test positive. So beauticians are not immune from Covid!

I’m going a step further and not visiting any establishment that requires me to check in.

Do you include using a paper form, or is it just app based venues you're avoiding? Because by law the venue is required to ensure customers check in, so there won't be many venues for you to visit.

I've been using the app to check in and I prefer it to using the paper forms. It's more private and secure, and less hassle. I use the contacts/proximity feature as well, because I personally would prefer to know if I'd been in contact with a confirmed case. I'd rather isolate than risk spreading it to elderly family members. I know everyone's different though - I work from home so can isolate quite easily with no impact on my income.

I do not know how effective the app will be, but the government seem hell bent on getting 'R' down. If the app is a way of helping to do that, it may avoid some even more draconian measures. To me the risk of spending winter under lockdown is a far bigger concern than catching Covid.

 

[Mojo]

Been to quite a few places over the weekend, including out of London, and still not seen anywhere with the NHS code on display.

 

[Mintona]

Do you include using a paper form, or is it just app based venues you're avoiding? Because by law the venue is required to ensure customers check in, so there won't be many venues for you to visit.

I’ve happily used the paper version, although I don’t really go anywhere anyway because of the face covering rules. I used to spend about £500 a month on eating out at restaurants, now it is around £50 on takeaways instead. I’ve not been in a pub (except for food) since 2011.

I refuse to download anything that this lot want me to and I do not want an arbitrary two week imprisonment because I walked past somebody who ten days later tested positive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't need to delete the app, you can delete individual check-ins.

You can cancel one if you press cancel when you scan in. I don't think you can delete them unless you hack around with the database. You can clear the app's data, though.

 

[Nicholas43]

I refuse to download anything that this lot want me to and I do not want an arbitrary two week imprisonment because I walked past somebody who ten days later tested positive.

It's the NHS and Public Health bodies who ask you to download the app. It does not ask for any personal information. It uses frequent (I don't know how frequent) Bluetooth scans to note which other app-using phones you have been near for a period of many minutes. And it notifies your phone if the owner of another such phone tests positive. If lots of people download it, and it works as advertised, it will hasten the relaxing of the Covid restrictions.