Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[FGW_DID]

Is it XC running the service (ie with 220/221s) or are GWR running XC HSTs?

Both traction will be in use.

 

[JonathanH]

Both traction will be in use.

Presumably the Plymouth starter is the HST and the ones that start Bristol are XC sending out Voyager stock until it is needed for their own services or that would otherwise be spare?

EDIT - suggestions elsewhere that this is the case 0534 Plymouth to Swindon and 1930 Swindon to Plymouth are HST with alternate Swindon to Bristol shuttles in between.

 

[43066]

From what I can see on the GWR web site, all they are offering is a refund of the ticket price if you don't travel.

Then they just refer you to the usual conditions, which would suggest that if you needed to get somewhere with an advance ticket and your train was cancelled, you need to buy a new one to travel.

Fair enough. That seems harsh to me, but then I’ve never read the conditions (my fault!). I suppose with advances there’s an element of cheap price equalling minimal flexibility, and higher risk. Ultimately that’s the trade off for travelling hundreds of miles, with luggage, for only £20 or £30.

With my legalistic hat on the way to look at that would be to say that all train tickets are expressly sold subject to those conditions (in addition to some limited statutory rights). Anyone buying a ticket is therefore deemed to have understood and accepted them, irrespective of whether they’ve read them.

Therefore if you’re stranded away from home/unable to use your advance ticket to travel, you have no redress, so long as the TOC has discharged its responsibilities to you, both contractual and otherwise. Indeed you should (theoretically) already know exactly what you’re entitled to.

The phrase “you pays your money and you takes your choice” springs to mind. As does “If you buy cheap, you get cheap”.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would borrow NORTHERN class 331s which would be the next best thing for those pax travelling between LEEDS/LONDON

It simply doesn't work like that on the railway.
Trains are restricted to the routes that have been cleared for them by Network Rail, on a line by line basis.
Nobody will have cleared 331s to work from Leeds south of Doncaster.
Then you need crew who are passed on the train and the route by their TOC, and no Northern staff will be passed on the ECML south of Doncaster.
No LNER staff will be passed to work 331s either.

Mk4s are of course cleared on the ECML, and LNER staff will be passed to crew them.
So reactivating some of them is the sensible way to get more trains into service.
But that wouldn't work for GWR, who need another solution, and in any case a pure EMU won't get you to Swansea/Bristol/Taunton/Oxford.
Class 769s might have been useful to GWR but there are none in service yet.

 

[skyhigh]

Then you need crew who are passed on the train and the route by their TOC, and no Northern staff will be passed on the ECML south of Doncaster.
No LNER staff will be passed to work 331s either.

Northern crew could act as traction conductors for the LNER crew with the route knowledge (ignoring issues around social distancing, and availability etc.) But as you say, 331s are not cleared in any way south of Doncaster. It's never going to happen.

 

[yorksrob]

All I can say is thank goodness there are still some IC225's knocking about.

 

[UKRailfan_22]

I do agree, but tell that to the poor passengers needing to travel on these major Inter-City routes. They have had over 24 hours now to assess the seriousness of this situation. Someone in the DFT needs to get a grip and make a sensible, logical and workable decision and get it implemented as soon as possible.

I completely agree DFT should have at least or made a statement on what they plan to do with the regulator stepping in now to help get passengers refunds/compensation when it first became clear this was gonna go on for a lot longer than this weekend. Going by GWRs twitter responses now there going with the standard copied and pasted very vague do not travel check our website response. Leaving us to speculate on what the situation will be come monday/Tuesday.

 

[1D53]

There is a less than 0.00001% chance any 331s will be South of Doncaster tomorrow.

 

[skyhigh]

I completely agree DFT should have at least or made a statement on what they plan to do with the regulator stepping in now to help get passengers refunds/compensation when it first became clear this was gonna go on for a lot longer than this weekend. Going by GWRs twitter responses now there going with the standard copied and pasted very vague do not travel check our website response. Leaving us to speculate on what the situation will be come monday/Tuesday.

Given how quickly things seem to be changing, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody actually knows for sure what's happening tomorrow. Surely the best thing to do is to ask passengers to check the website (where information can be updated as required) than to tweet information to passengers they're not certain on?

 

[adc82140]

I presume the DfT would have had some input with the XC shuttles running tomorrow. I doubt XC would have volunteered their stock and staff without assurances that they would be adequately renumerated.

 

[jon0844]

There is a less than 0.00001% chance any 331s will be South of Doncaster tomorrow.

So you're saying there is a chance then?

 

[Brissle Girl]

I presume the DfT would have had some input with the XC shuttles running tomorrow. I doubt XC would have volunteered their stock and staff without assurances that they would be adequately renumerated.

I think you're forgetting that the DfT effectively controls the former franchises. In this type of crisis it's probably an advantage, as they can just say "do it", and we'll work out any financial adjustments later.

 

[RealTrains07]

Unfortunately this situation with the Hitachi units does shine a negative light on standardisation.

I think the DfT may review the standardisation policy because of this

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

I see GWR have been running some Swindon - Bristol shuttles today. What stock have they been using?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think you're forgetting that the DfT effectively controls the former franchises. In this type of crisis it's probably an advantage, as they can just say "do it", and we'll work out any financial adjustments later.

It might involve some route changes too, such as not running west/north of Edinburgh.
This being to free up units for "GWR" routes.

 

[HST274]

1A25 1711 Swindon to Didcot Parkway was an IET.

 

[dosxuk]

So you're saying there is a chance then?

Well, the Earth's north and south poles are expected to flip at some point, making Leeds south of Doncaster...

 

[cactustwirly]

I see GWR have been running some Swindon - Bristol shuttles today. What stock have they been using?

5 car 800, they're running through to Didcot to connect with the 387s to Paddington

 

[FGW_DID]

I see GWR have been running some Swindon - Bristol shuttles today. What stock have they been using?

2x 5 car 800.

 

[popeter45]

are the 5 car and/or 801's units looking less prone to this issue?

 

[GoneSouth]

Okay then. Instead of 'heard' give us a good source for the information. What we've had over the last 24 hours is a load of people looking at a situation over 20 years ago (before most of them were born!) when some EMU's made a few trips to from Leeds to London and then trying to claim that it's happening again tomorrow with all different types of rolling stock.

I'm surprised nobody hasn't relayed the rumour about LNER seeking assistance from Box Tunnel yet...........

I heard Mallard was coming out of retirement on Tuesday’s and Thursdays to do some crowd busting

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

are the 5 car and/or 801's units looking less prone to this issue?

Statistically the 5 cars should be as there are fewer coaches to go wrong.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Going back to the problems with the 800s:

My understanding was that the variations of the 800 series are part of the Hitachi AT300 family built for a similar purpose and in use in a number of countries.

Obviously there will be differences in the profile of the stock which will need to be amended to suit different loading gauges etc, and stress analysis will have been done for all variations to confirm the strength (and presumably fatigue resistance which will underly this issue) of each body design.
But, there hasn't yet been any mention here as to whether any other users have detected any similar problems, even if not to the extent of prompting action as severe as the suspension of a whole fleet.

Perhaps someone will know if there have been difficulties elsewhere?

Thanks

 

[Domh245]

Statistically the 5 cars should be as there are fewer coaches to go wrong.

That'd be true if the issues were randomly distributed. However, as the issues are highly dependent on age/mileage, it's the older fleets (including the 5 car GWR units) that are being most affected

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

5 car 800, they're running through to Didcot to connect with the 387s to Paddington

Thanks. That makes sense. I didn't notice they were running through to Didcot as for some reason the services are separated at Swindon, but the platforms and times match up so I have no doubt that in reality they are through trains. Swindon to Didcot is probably the place to focus them as they are currently no real alternatives

 

[Winthorpe]

I heard Mallard was coming out of retirement on Tuesday’s and Thursdays to do some crowd busting

 

[96tommy]

Been to Edinburgh and back with LNER today, had no issues fortunately. Noted this notice about the fleet issues (complete with a couple of Azuma's behind)

 

[geoffk]

So far, RTT reports only one LNER cancellation at Kings Cross today (the 0855 ex Newcastle) and none for Hull Trains, while at Leeds only one TPE service, the 1644 Newcastle - Leeds, is cancelled so far. Granted it's a Sunday and it remains to be seen what happens tomorrow morning. GWR is having to make more significant changes, including shuttle services from Swindon to Cheltenham and from Reading to Worcester. Are these 158s and 165/166s respectively, and where is GWR getting them from?

 

[Highlandspring]

View attachment 95858

Been to Edinburgh and back with LNER today, had no issues fortunately. Noted this notice about the fleet issues (complete with a couple of Azuma's behind)

It’s notable how LNER is going out of its way to avoid ever using the word ‘Azuma’ in all its communications about this.

 

[Bill_Lestrange]

I've only heard of one inside frame bogie vehicle on a 9car being affect and these have the same bodywork geometry in the bolster area as the other intermediate vehicles.

No, this is the crux of the issue though. If a manufacturer supplies components which are not up to standard, it can take quite a while for these problems to become manifest.

Going back to the problems with the 800s:

My understanding was that the variations of the 800 series are part of the Hitachi AT300 family built for a similar purpose and in use in a number of countries.

Obviously there will be differences in the profile of the stock which will need to be amended to suit different loading gauges etc, and stress analysis will have been done for all variations to confirm the strength (and presumably fatigue resistance which will underly this issue) of each body design.
But, there hasn't yet been any mention here as to whether any other users have detected any similar problems, even if not to the extent of prompting action as severe as the suspension of a whole fleet.

Perhaps someone will know if there have been difficulties elsewhere?

Thanks

This is a really good point. I know that the following article might be of interest https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/business/kobe-steel-japan-trains.amp.html?0p19G=0232

This scandal around the quality of aluminium emerged a few years ago. It might show quite the extent of the problem.

"It said that about 4 percent of the company’s output of those products from September 2016 to August this year had been affected" so it may not be all of the A trains that have been affected. It may also be that only those sets that used aluminium made by Kobe steel are affected. I suspect this will be something that Hitachi are investigating.