Dyncymraeg
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Were there instances in other countries where rail lines were heavily cut as with Beeching in the UK.
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Equivalent of Beeching in other countries
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Most developed countries, and several developing countries have been through a closure programme. Where GB differs from most others is that a report was produced detailing the reshaping of the railways.
The French closed large portions of their rural network back in the 1930s.
LSWR Cavalier
Established Member
In the DDR rail transport of goods was given priority by law. After 1990 many lines were closed.
Now there is half-hearted talk of trying to reopen some. In practice enormously expensive prestige projects (high-speed new lines, Stuttgart21) are favored.
A very similar situation to that in the UK, but the period until the mistake was realised was maybe shorter in Germany.
Now there is half-hearted talk of trying to reopen some. In practice enormously expensive prestige projects (high-speed new lines, Stuttgart21) are favored.
A very similar situation to that in the UK, but the period until the mistake was realised was maybe shorter in Germany.
Sir Felix Pole
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Northern Ireland had the 'Benson' report in 1963 (Henry Benson was an English accountant recommended by Dr B. no less), which advocated retaining only the Larne, Bangor and Dublin lines - the latter only retained for political purposes and to be singled to the border. Fortunately one line to Londonderry/Derry was eventually reprieved, but the anti-rail sentiment of the UTA and government was notorious - one minister describing the 'railways as redundant as the stagecoach'.
In the Republic the bête noire was Todd Andrews, appointed chairman of CIE in 1958. He pursued a very aggressive closure programme - ironically one of the first lines to go was the heavily used Harcourt Street commuter route in Dublin, but now pleasingly reactivated as part of Luas.
In the Republic the bête noire was Todd Andrews, appointed chairman of CIE in 1958. He pursued a very aggressive closure programme - ironically one of the first lines to go was the heavily used Harcourt Street commuter route in Dublin, but now pleasingly reactivated as part of Luas.
Many Eastern European countries saw the railway system shrink massively after the fall of the communist regimes - though not necessarily planned at national level.
Another difference is that the main statutory protection in the UK (since the 1960s) has been on the passenger service - once that’s gone, there’s little protection for the trackbed. In Germany, the big protection is on the trackbed, meaning it’s more likely to be still there to reopen!
U-Bahnfreund
Member
West Germany doesn't have a specific time or report or anything. They just gradually closed lines everywhere.
Since 1993, regional rail services are regionalised, so it's the state authorities who have a big sway in many small lines that are just used for passenger services (since many goods services were withdrawn in the early 2000s in a coordinated program: MORA C), but there's no big scheme about closing lines
Since 1993, regional rail services are regionalised, so it's the state authorities who have a big sway in many small lines that are just used for passenger services (since many goods services were withdrawn in the early 2000s in a coordinated program: MORA C), but there's no big scheme about closing lines
tbtc
Veteran Member
I don’t claim any knowledge of foreign closures, but it’s worth remembering that foreign *openings* were probably a bit more sensible than some of the nineteenth century speculators in the UK, where it wasn’t unusual to have two lines trying to do the same thing
I’m sure that being first (to build railways) was a disadvantage for us as we couldn’t learn lessons from other countries that planned/ organised much better in the first place
Plus, as pointed out above, the lack of decentralisation in UK Government meant that decisions had to be done nationally that might have been more delicately handled if we had regional equivalent of German “,Landtag” to handle “local issues for local people”, so of course Beeching looks like a huge amount of closures, because we insisted on everything being at a Westminster level
And the UK seemed to be in a rush under Wilson to become “modern” - Continental countries has come out of the war with long term adjustments/ restructuring planned for the future of the economy - I don’t know if we were too complacent for the first twenty-ish years after 1945 (or tied up with things like the NHS/ Welfare State/ Suez/ Empire etc) but we don’t seem to have paid so much attention to industrial innovation until Wilson got into power, then there was a sudden urgency to catch up, to innovate, to close down the failing industries, that we needed something like Beeching rather than taking a slow methodical approach over the previous couple of decades (not blaming this on Wilson, you could argue that he was trying to do the right thing but had been left with too much on his plate by the complacency of previous governments?)
I’m sure that being first (to build railways) was a disadvantage for us as we couldn’t learn lessons from other countries that planned/ organised much better in the first place
Plus, as pointed out above, the lack of decentralisation in UK Government meant that decisions had to be done nationally that might have been more delicately handled if we had regional equivalent of German “,Landtag” to handle “local issues for local people”, so of course Beeching looks like a huge amount of closures, because we insisted on everything being at a Westminster level
And the UK seemed to be in a rush under Wilson to become “modern” - Continental countries has come out of the war with long term adjustments/ restructuring planned for the future of the economy - I don’t know if we were too complacent for the first twenty-ish years after 1945 (or tied up with things like the NHS/ Welfare State/ Suez/ Empire etc) but we don’t seem to have paid so much attention to industrial innovation until Wilson got into power, then there was a sudden urgency to catch up, to innovate, to close down the failing industries, that we needed something like Beeching rather than taking a slow methodical approach over the previous couple of decades (not blaming this on Wilson, you could argue that he was trying to do the right thing but had been left with too much on his plate by the complacency of previous governments?)
New South Wales in the late '80s had a run at it with a report from consultants Booz Allen Hamilton, but it was more in the line of suggestions rather than recommendations, and in any case a not-insignificant portion of it proved too politically compromising to go ahead with.
Major "bingo!" on all of these points.
nanstallon
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Yes, it was nearly all done on one day in early 1985.
Harold Macmillan was painfully aware of the relative decline in British economic performance, which is why his premiership saw a sudden impetus to modernisation and change in many areas of government: Beeching, NEDC, the Plowden report on the planning of public spending, the Robbins report on universities & higher education, the Herbert report which led to the creation of GLC, the massive expansion of motorways, the decision to jioin the EEC, and so on.
Wilson built on this, and was able to look like a more plausible exponent of this mood than Macmillan and Home.
The last I can think of being in Thüringen and Brandenburg in the mid 2000s. In the BRD there were plenty of closures in the 70s/80s..
...plus a steady trickle of re-openings, mainly but not wholly in the "West" which hasn't suffered the rural depopulation of Brandenburg and Mecklenburg.
The one country that has definitely bucked the trend is Czechia where there seems to be strong pressure to keep little-used branch lines open.
In the USA I believe 50% of the passenger route mileage taken over by Amtrak in 1971 had service withdrawn on opening day, and only half the rolling stock in use on passenger services was retained. In fairness, these were the more extreme basket cases, of which there were a substantial number, but whole states lost all service.
duesselmartin
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Any idea in developements in train heaven Switzerland?
AIUI following a recent referendum communities above a certain minimal size are required to have a minimum level of service (hourly daytime?).
That doesn't have to be by rail and there has been a steady trickle of closures (stations or routes) over the 50+ years of which I have knowledge, percentage wise I would guess higher than CZ.
France experienced what was by a considerably-sized margin, Europe's first systematic rail-passenger holocaust of the Beeching sort: in 1938, when nationalisation of the half-dozen notionally-independent "big" railway companies, to form the SNCF; was accompanied by a massive, rapidly implemented, passenger-service-withdrawal programme on lesser (and often not-so-lesser) lines of same, encompassing some 10,000 route kilometres. The exercise was referred to as public-passenger "co-ordination" -- in theory (less so in practice) involving orderly substitution for the withdrawn rail services, by bus services. (The great majority of the lines which were thus victims in 1938, remained in use for freight; some continuing so, for many decades henceforth.) This "co-ordination" has been the subject of controversy ever since; with many seeing it as a move prompted by political or other vested interests, rather than a truly salutary one.
Prior to this 1938 episode, relatively few of the big companies' lesser lines had lost their passenger services; though on France's huge kilometrage of local rail undertakings (both standard and narrow gauge) independent of the big companies -- while these were unaffected by 1938's "co-ordination" as such, many fell on hard times, and closed, throughout the 1930s. Something of a "bright spot amidst darkness" (for a few people) came to be, with the onset of World War II and its shortages -- especially of fuel oil -- a situation intensified by France's falling under German domination in 1940. In response, a considerable number of passenger services withdrawn at "co-ordination", were resumed, envisagedly "for the duration" -- some of this happening also, on independent local lines closed shortly before the war, but still in situ. With nearly all such wartime passenger reopenings: the services were withdrawn once more, quite shortly after the end of the war -- as soon as things were back to having some resemblance to normal.
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341o2
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In 1950, Stormont declared that "railways were obsolete", and planned to shut the entire network in favour of road transport, with the exception of Belfast - Bangor, out of 754 miles of railway, only 297 survived.
Ireland also had several 3' gauge lines, the last to close was the West Clare in 1960, while France had numerous metre gauge lines, mostly gone, apart from a few tourist lines, one of the last closures was the Reseau Breton, although some of its lines are still running, but converted to standard gauge
As the Isle of Man, like the Channel Islands, is considered to be separate from the UK, only the Douglas to Port Erin line remains open, 15 1/2 miles out of 46. Jersey also has no railway, both lines closing prewar
Ireland also had several 3' gauge lines, the last to close was the West Clare in 1960, while France had numerous metre gauge lines, mostly gone, apart from a few tourist lines, one of the last closures was the Reseau Breton, although some of its lines are still running, but converted to standard gauge
As the Isle of Man, like the Channel Islands, is considered to be separate from the UK, only the Douglas to Port Erin line remains open, 15 1/2 miles out of 46. Jersey also has no railway, both lines closing prewar
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I would respectfully disagree here. France still has today, several -- substantial -- metre-gauge lines / systems in everyday commercial passenger use. There are (electric), the St. Gervais -- Vallorcine system; and Villefranche-Vernet-les-Bains -- La Tour de Carol ("petit train jaune" or "Metro des Pyrenees"); and (diesel), Le Blanc -- Argent; Chemins de Fer de Provence (Nice -- Digne); and the Corsican system.
341o2
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Post amended to say "mostly gone" A misquote of Mr. W Pedia in that virtually all the SNCF metre gauge lines have been closed
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Interesting -- rings no bell with me -- could you give more detail?
Pretty well the ultimate in that which comes to mind for me: the several short terminal offshoots from the Nice -- Digne line, mentioned upthread (run by other concerns, than the Nice -- Digne's company): all, I think, opened post-World War I, and all extremely short-lived -- one anyway of them, something like five years, I believe.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
I suspect the OP may be referring to the Blanc Argent. It is not too far from Orleans.
Yes, that's right, I misread Calthrop's post
Very interesting @Calthrop.
There seems to be quite a few closed lines in the Dordogne region some of which have been turned into cycle routes. Would they have likely closed sometime around 1938 then? I can’t seem to find much information about them.
Ah, right -- sorry ! Nomenclature-wise, the Le Blanc -- Argent line is on the misleading side. It indeed connects with the Region Sud-Ouest's main line south from Paris, at Salbris some 60 km. south of Orleans; however, only the middle part of its once very considerable route length, is still in use. Its respective sections to its "White" -- Le Blanc -- (south-western); and "Silver" -- Argent-sur-Sauldre -- (north-eastern) extremities; closed very long ago.
As in my post upthread -- I'd think it likely that a considerable proportion of these lines lost their passenger services in the 1938 "Co-ordination"; but that post-that event, the majority anyway of their route length, stayed in use for freight for decades after -- cycle-route-conversion happening subsequent to withdrawal at last, of freight traffic. Also -- some lesser lines of the "big companies" / new SNCF, kept their passenger services post-Co-Ordination; this tending to happen in hilly areas such as the Dordogne, more than in the regions of low-lying, gentle scenery further north. Some of the cycle routes may have come to be on such lines, when they finally closed -- to pass. and / or freight? -- much later than the 1930s / 40s.
There is a wonderful series of books on the history of now-closed ex-"big companies" / SNCF lines -- replete with excellent maps, and pictures from assorted periods -- one volume for each SNCF region, every line covered. Published, I think, by Les Editions du Cabri. A friend of mine, with greater resources than available to me, owns the whole set: "way back", he kindly lent me them, region by region; unfortunately such information as I gleaned from them then, is no longer physically with me. These tomes could most probably be purchased; but probably, I fear, at a price which -- as the chap put it -- "would look as though it had been worked out by the Astronomer Royal in light-years".
I’d love to have a read of those. When you look at what information is easily available online for even quite obscure railways in the UK it makes you realise just how lucky we are.
Ex-controller
Member
There’s a potential sociology thesis right there!
The BRD/West Germany had a pretty substantial RC population, unlike the DDR, so I am not sure about that. And Czechia's dominant faith is also RC (though "dominant" is hardly the word!)....
Back to French Minor Railways - there is a substantial tome with that title by WJK Davies which gives an overview of each region and good detail of some.
Off-hand, the Correze, Tarn, Herault and Vivarais also survived the 30's cull.
341o2
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The Comite (missing accent) Rail-route was formed in 1935, proposed and implemented the replacement of all local passenger services with buses, on the national network, buses duplicating mainline rail services would also be withdrawn, and the use of railcars encouraged. The Reseau Breton lost its passenger services to Morlaix, La Bro, and Le Fret in 1939, also ordering six railcars.
With the outbreak of war, German occupation, and shortage of supplies, buses were rapidly taken off the road, and as already mentioned, rail services resumed which had only recently been withdrawn. In 1941, the RB took over the CFD Finistere, whose lines had closed 1937 - 1939, until the end of WW2, when all lines bar one closed again, this section was converted to standard gauge and lasted until 1963.
Le Fret lost its passenger services again in 1946 and La Bro (how the locals usually refer to the town) in 1953.
Apologies for missing accents.
With the outbreak of war, German occupation, and shortage of supplies, buses were rapidly taken off the road, and as already mentioned, rail services resumed which had only recently been withdrawn. In 1941, the RB took over the CFD Finistere, whose lines had closed 1937 - 1939, until the end of WW2, when all lines bar one closed again, this section was converted to standard gauge and lasted until 1963.
Le Fret lost its passenger services again in 1946 and La Bro (how the locals usually refer to the town) in 1953.
Apologies for missing accents.
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