Equivalent of Beeching in other countries

[stuu]

Wow! That's something I would love to see... I have seen small segments of something like that on odd websites, but never the whole thing.

 

[jumble]

Were there instances in other countries where rail lines were heavily cut as with Beeching in the UK.

This is a bit OT perhaps but shows what I think are all Swiss Railway closures

Eingestellte Bahnen

eingestellte-bahnen.ch

Although Switzerland has one of the densest railway networks in Europe, more than seventy independent railways or sections of it have actually been closed. Of course, the main part was played by the overland trams, which have practically disappeared in their original form

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

On the French historical mapping thing, Wikimedia Commons has some - try https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Railway_map_of_France and navigate from there. From what I can see, there are maps for at least four dates, plus an animated option, for every department, as well as 1930 and 2020 maps for every region and various national maps. The department-level maps distinguish traction types, number of tracks and passenger versus freight only.

 

[stuu]

On the French historical mapping thing, Wikimedia Commons has some - try https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Railway_map_of_France and navigate from there. From what I can see, there are maps for at least four dates, plus an animated option, for every department, as well as 1930 and 2020 maps for every region and various national maps. The department-level maps distinguish traction types, number of tracks and passenger versus freight only.

Thanks for sharing, I have seen those before though, they are annoyingly imprecise as they don't link to the underlying mapping. I would assume the IGN (French equivalent of Ordnance Survey) has very detailed maps, like the OS maps which show actual track layouts, but they don't seem to be accessible

 

[Doctor Fegg]

My retired French railwayman friend in Paris - with whom my wife and I will be staying tonight and tomorrow night en route back from Italy - has the route map from the 1933 Chaix timetable framed and wall-mounted in his apartment. It shows all standard gauge and narrow gauge lines - as well as rural and interurban tramways - with enlargements for major towns and cities. It is incredibly complex and detailed and I could look at it for hours. I wonder if it is available somewhere on the web!

Not quite that, but there’s a 1921 Chaix system map here:

Une saignée récurrente et un classement absurde - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires

Un siècle de vagues de fermetures Parvenu à son apogée dans les années 1920, le réseau ferroviaire français d’intérêt général comptait alors environ 42 000 km de lignes, auxquels s’ajoutaient un peu plus de 20 000 km de chemins de fer départementaux....

transportrail.canalblog.com

The French veloroutes on old railway lines are outstanding, and expanding year by year. Far better than what we’ve managed over here.

 

[leytongabriel]

In some cases there seems to have been a brief reopening and then the Germans took the rails up to use elsewhere. Eg From Falaise west towards
Pont D'Ouily and Berjou in Normandy

 

[billio]

There is a free IGN website which displays a number of old maps overlain on recent mapping and aerial photographs - Geoportail . None of these show the detail available on the 25inch to a mile OS maps at the NLS. I think national mapping in France was nothing like as advanced as the OS.

 

[leytongabriel]

In some cases there seems to have been a brief reopening and then the Germans took the rails up to use elsewhere. Eg From Falaise west towards
Pont D'Ouily and Berjou in Normandy

Indeed they did -- as did a great number of other independent local-railway concerns, which are now lost -- metre gauge, standard gauge, and also a very little 600mm gauge ! An enormous amount of such, perished approximately during the decade 1945 -- 55. When Bryan Morgan's The End of the Line was published in 1955 (Morgan was of course not the first Briton to have experience of French minor railways, but it would seem safe to say that that book of his was the first attempt at a full "roll-call" of same, as in action at the time of publication): the author remarked in the book that as at 1955, there basically remained only odd remnants here and there, of France's minor-railway riches as had been, maybe a generation earlier -- and of course most of what there was left in '55, has now gone. (The four above-quoted systems lasted, to be covered accordingly by Morgan in The End of... ; the Herault system, though, had effectively only one line left with passenger service as at 1955; freight continued on other parts of the system, but Morgan -- understandably -- makes no attempt to keep tabs on freight doings.)

I find particularly heartbreaking (have mentioned this recently, elsewhere in these Forums), the huge loss of French minor railways over the quite short period 1946 -- 51 inclusive. Many thus affected: being still active or only very recently closed as at 1939, no doubt had their lives prolonged by the abnormal conditions of World War II / German occupation, and the multitude of shortages accompanying same; but once the war was over and some sort of quasi-normality returned, closures resumed apace -- and this time, for good. For a short while after the war, some minor-rail concerns did their best to improve and modernise services, and a few of these even quite prospered, briefly; but the temper of the times was overwhelmingly against local minor railways and in favour of road transport in their stead. Thousands of kilometres were abandoned, all over France, over those half-dozen years (1949 was a particularly hideous year); and a good deal more, albeit at a slower rate, shortly thereafter.




No worries -- I also lack the gear to do accents on letters in foreign languages !

Morgan gives a few slightly wistful words to the easternmost stretch of the RB, to La Brohiniere to give that junction its full name. He mentions Loudeac as the terminus for passenger at time of publication, of the line eastward from Carhaix -- he writes, "here now the Reseau ends, though recently it trailed on to a further junction and for its last four miles ran side by side with the standard gauge [the SNCF's Ploermel branch] up a long incline to ["the La B place" !]. I loved that dying fall, that courteous handing-over of control: but it must be confessed that Loudeac was always the logical terminus of the system." He seems to be referring to La Bro's being located just within the departement of Ille-et-Vilaine -- administratively, but not culturally, part of Brittany -- being essentially mainstream-French rather than Celtic. In fact, Loudeac to La Bro remained in use for freight until the very end of metre-gauge working on the RB in 1967; but as mentioned above, Morgan "didn't do freight".


and @30907 writes: "The BRD/West Germany had a pretty substantial RC population, unlike the DDR, so I am not sure about that. And Czechia's dominant faith is also RC (though 'dominant' is hardly the word)..."

Re the "religion" element: it's only a vague notion floating around in my head, and maybe complete nonsense -- prompted in part, by the perceived paucity of railway enthusiasts / enthusiasm in Ireland, at present and in the past (there have of course always been some there, often very keen !) -- a situation, it seems to me, of more scarceness than explicable by the mathematics of Great Britain's having a much bigger population than Ireland.

My impression is that -- big generalisation, subject to many blips -- the north of West Germany tends to be Protestant, and the south Catholic. Have long had, from more than one source: picture that, since way before Communism, the Czech people have tended in the main, not to set very much store by religion -- they have been, historically, notionally and culturally Catholic (pace Jan Hus and all that !); but not in fact to care greatly about it all -- "voting with their feet" as it were. On the other hand, the Slovaks tend -- like their Polish neighbours -- to be strongly and seriously Catholic: one of the reasons why Czechoslovakia as a nation, was not altogether a resounding success.

I believe the great number of French minor lines was due to an order which said that every commune should be served by a railway issued in the second half of the 19th century. The population in the countryside was enormously hit by the loss of a generation of men in the Great War and then the rural depopulation of the 30's when France, belatedly, ceased to be have a predominatlely rural/agricultural economy. Add in the bus, the motor car, the Gaullist post-war govenment and some well -documented undue influence of Renault etc. and yes it was bye-bye railways big time.

 

[Calthrop]

I believe the great number of French minor lines was due to an order which said that every commune should be served by a railway issued in the second half of the 19th century. The population in the countryside was enormously hit by the loss of a generation of men in the Great War and then the rural depopulation of the 30's when France, belatedly, ceased to be have a predominatlely rural/agricultural economy. Add in the bus, the motor car, the Gaullist post-war govenment and some well -documented undue influence of Renault etc. and yes it was bye-bye railways big time.

(My bolding) -- damn that Kaiser, eh? One gathers that Germany's World War I people-losses were equally great; but rural light railways there, lasted a good deal better and longer than in France. Overall, a bigger population than of France, despite everything...?

 

[craigybagel]

Northern Ireland had the 'Benson' report in 1963 (Henry Benson was an English accountant recommended by Dr B. no less), which advocated retaining only the Larne, Bangor and Dublin lines - the latter only retained for political purposes and to be singled to the border. Fortunately one line to Londonderry/Derry was eventually reprieved, but the anti-rail sentiment of the UTA and government was notorious - one minister describing the 'railways as redundant as the stagecoach'.

Benson is actually supposed to have been on the point of recommending that the entire UTA rail system be closed, but when he made his study tour of Northern Ireland the severity of the traffic congestion in the Belfast area supposedly convinced him to spare the suburban lines. (However, I don't know how well attested this claim is.)

A lot of lines in NI closed pre-Benson; the Belfast & County Down (Bangor line excepted) and passenger services on the minor LMS(NCC) lines went in 1950 under the UTA, and the Great Northern Railway Board closed a considerable mileage in the border area in 1957.

The only line closures that took place directly on foot of Benson were the Warrenpoint branch and the "Derry Road" (Portadown to Derry/Londonderry), both closed in 1965 - but the latter was arguably the most serious loss anywhere on the island.

Northern Ireland also had an extra issue that didn't apply in the rest of the UK. It's very noticeable that even today with the exception of the cross border line, the rest of the network predominantly serves traditionally Protestant areas. When they had a choice over which route to Derry/Londonderry to retain (either via Coleraine or the Port Road) it was pretty obvious that the then heavily sectarian Stormont was only going to pick the route through Antrim and not Tyrone.

In the Republic the bête noire was Todd Andrews, appointed chairman of CIE in 1958. He pursued a very aggressive closure programme - ironically one of the first lines to go was the heavily used Harcourt Street commuter route in Dublin, but now pleasingly reactivated as part of Luas.

To be fair, the whole "heavily used" thing with the Harcourt Street line was something of a myth. It's terminus was too far away from the City Centre to be of much use. Reopening as light rail solved that issue - but in the context of the times closure was a fairly sensible option.

It's very true that Andrews is the person traditionally blamed for the closures, and it's also true that he implemented them enthusiastically. However, the popular narrative tends to ignore that the Irish equivalent of the Reshaping report was the Beddy Report (Report of the Committee of Inquiry into Internal Transport). This was published in May 1957, whereas Andrews didn't even become chairman of CIÉ until September of the following year, and it was the work of a committee including experts and representatives of business and agricultural interests; Andrews wasn't among them, and neither was anyone else from CIÉ. Additionally, according to Ó Riain in On the Move: Córas Iompair Éireann 1945-95, the committee conducted "extensive oral hearings with various groups including the management of CIÉ, other transport companies and trade unions." (The report can be read at https://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/Library2/DL010419.pdf.)

Andrews didn't close anything that wasn't proposed for closure by Beddy (the only lines that Beddy intended to survive but that eventually closed were Mullingar-Athlone and Waterford-Rosslare, but neither of them closed until much later), though, as I say, he was enthusiastic about implementing Beddy's recommendations. I think he tends to get the blame partly because he was quite confrontational in the cases where controversies did arise over closures and partly because he was a party political figure (Fianna Fáil) and pointing to him in later years enabled the other parties to say "that wasn't us," even though the closures weren't a party political issue at the time. (Another common myth about the closures is that they were somehow done in imitation of Beeching, when the Beddy report was published in 1957 and the closure programme started in 1959 and was, in fact, at its peak by the time Beeching's report was released.)

Thanks for that, it's fascinating.

I feel that Mullingar - Athlone is one of the only closures in Ireland that looking back on seems flawed, especially as it lasted so long. Rosslare - Waterford on the other hand was a complete basket case of a line that was only kept alive by the annual sugar beet harvest. When that died, it became a throwback to the kind of route that Beeching would have closed in an instant - and it's one that people should never seriously consider reopening today.

New Zealand has had massive cutbacks. Only a handful of passenger trains a day on the South Island. Just checked - one train each way per day on both the TransAlpine and Coastal Pacific routes which only run on four days a week. So sixteen services a week!

Don't forget the busy commuter services around Wellington and Auckland - with the latter going through something of a revolution at the moment.

 

[30907]

(My bolding) -- damn that Kaiser, eh? One gathers that Germany's World War I people-losses were equally great; but rural light railways there, lasted a good deal better and longer than in France. Overall, a bigger population than of France, despite everything...?

Very little of Germany is as rural as "la France profonde" - and what there is was in the DDR where they basically didn't do closures.

 

[Calthrop]

Yielding to the temptation of some perhaps petty-ish nitpicking...

Northern Ireland also had an extra issue that didn't apply in the rest of the UK. It's very noticeable that even today with the exception of the cross border line, the rest of the network predominantly serves traditionally Protestant areas. When they had a choice over which route to Derry/Londonderry to retain (either via Coleraine or the Port Road) it was pretty obvious that the then heavily sectarian Stormont was only going to pick the route through Antrim and not Tyrone.

While I hold no brief for the old Stormont government; I can't help feeling that in the choice of which route (both of them about equally indirect) to retain / close -- given a situation of its being decided that one of them had to go -- the more practically sense-making one to keep, would be that via Coleraine; without being nasty to adherents of the perceivedly wrong version of Christianity, being a factor. The Coleraine route -- whether reached from Belfast by the NCC line via Templepatrick, or the GNR(I) one via Crumlin (both having at different times in the past half-century, been used for the purpose) would seem to serve more heavily-populated parts of N.I., than did the route via Omagh; plus, it gives access to the Portrush branch -- a section of the system which has been reckoned worth keeping, throughout. Plus, the ex-GNR(I) Omagh route suffered from the awkward feature of running north of Strabane, for a number of miles through the territory of the Republic, before re-entering N.I. to reach [London]derry.

I feel that Mullingar - Athlone is one of the only closures in Ireland that looking back on seems flawed, especially as it lasted so long. Rosslare - Waterford on the other hand was a complete basket case of a line that was only kept alive by the annual sugar beet harvest. When that died, it became a throwback to the kind of route that Beeching would have closed in an instant - and it's one that people should never seriously consider reopening today.

Not a serious comment here -- but I can't help wishing that Rosslare -- Waterford had been kept: just because of feeling that its removal has left the map of Iarnrod Eireann's system looking, in that corner, somewhat palsied / maimed / unbalanced ! Will admit that that is pure whimsy -- am sure that IE doesn't suffer in any way functionally, from having the Dublin -- Rosslare route thus "out on a limb"; and if I have things rightly, the future of that line itself is uncertain south of Gorey.

Very little of Germany is as rural as "la France profonde" - and what there is was in the DDR where they basically didn't do closures.

Only -- East Germany's DR did start, from the mid-1960s, a hefty closure programme on much of its hitherto enormous amount of narrow gauge (of several different gauges); though as we know, a fair bit of same has survived under other management, to the present day; and even the earlier victims in E.G. enjoyed two or three more decades of life, than most of their French counterparts.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 'Derry Road' did have the advantage of offering a much more direct route from Londonderry / Derry to Dublin - not that Stormont would have been bothered about that - either by changing at Portadown or by through coaches in GNR(I) days. Revival of the route is to be considered as part of the 'All Ireland Rail Review' to be published early next year, but it does seem a tall order. I journeyed that way by bus in 2019 and noted that the improved A5 road has taken the track-bed in several places and the formation has been completely obliterated in many towns. There is also the question of whether to take the left or right bank of the Foyle from Strabane into Londonderry / Derry and how to connect with the Waterside (NCC) station.

Mullingar to Athlone closed because of the desire to route Galway trains into Heuston and to take advantage of the faster Cork main line from Portarlington to Dublin. The MGW line via Maynooth is rather slow and pedestrian, following the incessant curves of the Royal Canal.

Rosslare to Waterford ceased to be of of use with the collapse of the traditional boat train traffic - in retrospect it would have been better to retain the Wexford to Waterford line via New Ross which at least had some prospect of local traffic. The Bus Éireann Rosslare - Waterford - Cork service does in fact run this way - journeying on it in 2018 I noted that the track was still in situ from Waterford to New Ross although heavily overgrown. I did travel on the line on a RPSI rail tour in 1978(?).

 

[craigybagel]

Not a serious comment here -- but I can't help wishing that Rosslare -- Waterford had been kept: just because of feeling that its removal has left the map of Iarnrod Eireann's system looking, in that corner, somewhat palsied / maimed / unbalanced ! Will admit that that is pure whimsy -- am sure that IR doesn't suffer in any way functionally, from having the Dublin -- Rosslare route thus "out on a limb"; and if I have things rightly, the future of that line itself is uncertain south of Gorey.

It certainly can't do much for the productivity of the traincrew depot at Rosslare!

I've heard the rumours about closure south of Gorey for a few years but it doesn't make any sense. If you're keeping it open that far you might as well continue on to Enniscorthy and Wexford town. Closure south of there to Rosslare might make a bit more sense, eradicating the H&S risk that is the tramway down the quay, but I can't see any of it being seen as politically acceptable. Also, unlike the line across to Waterford, the line from Dublin to Rosslare was modernised relatively recently with CWR and a modern signalling system.

The 'Derry Road' did have the advantage of offering a much more direct route from Londonderry / Derry to Dublin - not that Stormont would have been bothered about that - either by changing at Portadown or by through coaches in GNR(I) days. Revival of the route is to be considered as part of the 'All Ireland Rail Review' to be published early next year, but it does seem a tall order. I journeyed that way by bus in 2019 and noted that the improved A5 road has taken the track-bed in several places and the formation has been completely obliterated in many towns. There is also the question of whether to take the left or right bank of the Foyle from Strabane into Londonderry / Derry and how to connect with the Waterside (NCC) station.

Indeed, I'm not getting my hopes up. It's a big shame, bordering on disgrace that the line closed, but sadly it's hard to see it coming back.

Mullingar to Athlone closed because of the desire to route Galway trains into Heuston and to take advantage of the faster Cork main line from Portarlington to Dublin. The MGW line via Maynooth is rather slow and pedestrian, following the incessant curves of the Royal Canal.

Which says a lot about how slow the route is given the alternative route via Heuston is quite a hefty detour.

I suspect the biggest obstacle to reopening now would be more a lack of capacity info Dublin from Maynooth, rather than linespeed.

Rosslare to Waterford ceased to be of of use with the collapse of the traditional boat train traffic - in retrospect it would have been better to retain the Wexford to Waterford line via New Ross which at least had some prospect of local traffic. The Bus Éireann Rosslare - Waterford - Cork service does in fact run this way - journeying on it in 2018 I noted that the track was still in situ from Waterford to New Ross although heavily overgrown. I did travel on the line on a RPSI rail tour in 1978(?).

The New Ross branch is currently being converted into a greenway. I do wonder what modern journey times to Wexford would have been like if the New Ross branch and it's extension to Macmine were open and updated to modern standards. One of the big issues with the Waterford - Rosslare line was with its southerly routing and low line speeds that even if I direct service to Wexford town was provided, it wouldn't have a chance of competing with the road.

 

[30907]

East Germany's DR did start, from the mid-1960s, a hefty closure programme on much of its hitherto enormous amount of narrow gauge (of several different gauges); though as we know, a fair bit of same has survived under other management, to the present day; and even the earlier victims in E.G. enjoyed two or three more decades of life, than most of their French counterparts.

You are entirely correct. And most of those that closed were in the very rural parts, just like in France.

 

[The exile]

(My bolding) -- damn that Kaiser, eh? One gathers that Germany's World War I people-losses were equally great; but rural light railways there, lasted a good deal better and longer than in France. Overall, a bigger population than of France, despite everything...?

And a much more decentralised state.

 

[30907]

And a much more decentralised state

I think only true of post 1945 West Germany?

 

[The exile]

I think only true of post 1945 West Germany?

Not really - certainly not in terms of the relative significance of regional centres. The Weimar Republic (1918-1933) was also a federal republic.

 

[nw1]

France experienced what was by a considerably-sized margin, Europe's first systematic rail-passenger holocaust of the Beeching sort: in 1938, when nationalisation of the half-dozen notionally-independent "big" railway companies, to form the SNCF; was accompanied by a massive, rapidly implemented, passenger-service-withdrawal programme on lesser (and often not-so-lesser) lines of same, encompassing some 10,000 route kilometres. The exercise was referred to as public-passenger "co-ordination" -- in theory (less so in practice) involving orderly substitution for the withdrawn rail services, by bus services. (The great majority of the lines which were thus victims in 1938, remained in use for freight; some continuing so, for many decades henceforth.) This "co-ordination" has been the subject of controversy ever since; with many seeing it as a move prompted by political or other vested interests, rather than a truly salutary one.

Prior to this 1938 episode, relatively few of the big companies' lesser lines had lost their passenger services; though on France's huge kilometrage of local rail undertakings (both standard and narrow gauge) independent of the big companies -- while these were unaffected by 1938's "co-ordination" as such, many fell on hard times, and closed, throughout the 1930s. Something of a "bright spot amidst darkness" (for a few people) came to be, with the onset of World War II and its shortages -- especially of fuel oil -- a situation intensified by France's falling under German domination in 1940. In response, a considerable number of passenger services withdrawn at "co-ordination", were resumed, envisagedly "for the duration" -- some of this happening also, on independent local lines closed shortly before the war, but still in situ. With nearly all such wartime passenger reopenings: the services were withdrawn once more, quite shortly after the end of the war -- as soon as things were back to having some resemblance to normal.

France has, from my understanding, also seen some closures since the mid-1980s.

For example in summer 1983 the minor stops of Arpajon, Polminhac, Thiezac and St-Jacques existed on the Aurillac-Neussargues stretch (I know, because I actually used it). According to timetables and maps, none of these exist anymore.

In the same area, the Aurillac to Bort-les-Orgues line existed in 1983 but has also now gone.

 

[D6130]

In the same area, the Aurillac to Bort-les-Orgues line existed in 1983 but has also now gone.

Also Volvic-Lapeyrouse....largely due to the condition of the huge Fades viaduct, which was the highest in Europe until the opening of the Titograd (now Podgorice)-Bar line in the 1970s. Now the Clermont Ferrand-Laqueille-Le Mont d'Ore/Eyguarande passenger services through Volvic have also been bustituted, largely because no organisation was willing to cough up the 7 million Euro required to replace the worn-out track....with a fairly major landslip also thrown into the equation. IIRC, the Clermont-Le Mont d'Ore section is still open for freight traffic (mineral water shipments from La Bourboule and Volvic).

 

[WAB]

The 'Derry Road' did have the advantage of offering a much more direct route from Londonderry / Derry to Dublin - not that Stormont would have been bothered about that - either by changing at Portadown or by through coaches in GNR(I) days. Revival of the route is to be considered as part of the 'All Ireland Rail Review' to be published early next year, but it does seem a tall order. I journeyed that way by bus in 2019 and noted that the improved A5 road has taken the track-bed in several places and the formation has been completely obliterated in many towns. There is also the question of whether to take the left or right bank of the Foyle from Strabane into Londonderry / Derry and how to connect with the Waterside (NCC) station.

How are the economics of railways in NI and ROI? My understanding of NI is that, even though they serve the more populous parts of NI, they don't make ends meet.

I suspect that a United Ireland would be needed for several reasons. As you say, which bank to take in Londonderry is an issue at the moment with the border, although the eastern bank looks feasible to me, and wouldn't require too much demolition (and it just makes sense to have a through connection to the line north towards the airport). You could probably make the case (in social and developmental terms) for running right through to Sligo via Strabane, Omagh and Enniskillen, with Omagh to Portadown (maybe thence to Belfast) also being useful. These additional links would mean that most significant towns would be served, perhaps creating a network effect and boosting passenger numbers on all routes. There would be a need for capital investment and an ongoing operational subsidy beyond what is already provided for Translink. The political bickering in Stormont would likely prevent this, and a United Ireland would probably be busy enough covering the shortfall caused by the loss of British subsidies without taking on more ongoing costs. Time for the EU to step in and fund some regional development? They could sort out the Belfast to Dublin main line to give the Enterprise better paths whilst they're at it!

 

[Calthrop]

How are the economics of railways in NI and ROI? My understanding of NI is that, even though they serve the more populous parts of NI, they don't make ends meet.

I suspect that a United Ireland would be needed for several reasons. As you say, which bank to take in Londonderry is an issue at the moment with the border, although the eastern bank looks feasible to me, and wouldn't require too much demolition (and it just makes sense to have a through connection to the line north towards the airport). You could probably make the case (in social and developmental terms) for running right through to Sligo via Strabane, Omagh and Enniskillen, with Omagh to Portadown (maybe thence to Belfast) also being useful. These additional links would mean that most significant towns would be served, perhaps creating a network effect and boosting passenger numbers on all routes. There would be a need for capital investment and an ongoing operational subsidy beyond what is already provided for Translink. The political bickering in Stormont would likely prevent this, and a United Ireland would probably be busy enough covering the shortfall caused by the loss of British subsidies without taking on more ongoing costs. Time for the EU to step in and fund some regional development? They could sort out the Belfast to Dublin main line to give the Enterprise better paths whilst they're at it!

Possibly this belongs in a spin-off thread, if anywhere; at all events -- "alternative history" musings are no doubt profitless; but if one is that way inclined, the Irish railway scene rather lends itself to them. Supposing that the partitioning of Ireland had not happened (maybe, no First World War, with its "distractions" and own consequences on this scene: some miracle of statecraft being achieved, by which some sort of "home rule" deal was implemented, which the Ulster Protestants could ultimately accept): one wonders what the Irish railways would look like today -- they having been as at partition "in our time-line" about a century ago, still pre-eminent transport-wise, though not for much longer. In better health, with more routes still functioning -- or worse-off -- or??

In a no-partition scenario, would all Irish railways have undergone a "Grouping" process concurrent with, and in line with, Great Britain's in 1923; or would a deal of some more, or less, different kind have been found appropriate for Ireland? While in general, the partition which happened has -- I'd think in the view of the majority of people -- occasioned over the past century, much in the way of problems and woe: from a frivolous and sentimental railway-enthusiast point of view, it had an incidental positive aspect. Well away from the "Six Counties"; all railway undertakings located entirely in the Free State underwent from 1925, a "Grouping" equivalent, merging them as the Great Southern Railways -- but all those purely in Northern Ireland, or cut by the border, remained under the old ownerships: prolonging for another generation, in this corner of the British Isles, the colourful pre-Grouping scene -- and in lesser sort (cross-border undertakings only) doing so for another decade after that.

 

[Gloster]

Possibly this belongs in a spin-off thread, if anywhere; at all events -- "alternative history" musings are no doubt profitless; but if one is that way inclined, the Irish railway scene rather lends itself to them. Supposing that the partitioning of Ireland had not happened (maybe, no First World War, with its "distractions" and own consequences on this scene: some miracle of statecraft being achieved, by which some sort of "home rule" deal was implemented, which the Ulster Protestants could ultimately accept): one wonders what the Irish railways would look like today -- they having been as at partition "in our time-line" about a century ago, still pre-eminent transport-wise, though not for much longer. In better health, with more routes still functioning -- or worse-off -- or??

In a no-partition scenario, would all Irish railways have undergone a "Grouping" process concurrent with, and in line with, Great Britain's in 1923; or would a deal of some more, or less, different kind have been found appropriate for Ireland? While in general, the partition which happened has -- I'd think in the view of the majority of people -- occasioned over the past century, much in the way of problems and woe: from a frivolous and sentimental railway-enthusiast point of view, it had an incidental positive aspect. Well away from the "Six Counties"; all railway undertakings located entirely in the Free State underwent from 1925, a "Grouping" equivalent, merging them as the Great Southern Railways -- but all those purely in Northern Ireland, or cut by the border, remained under the old ownerships: prolonging for another generation, in this corner of the British Isles, the colourful pre-Grouping scene -- and in lesser sort (cross-border undertakings only) doing so for another decade after that.

The Derry Road from Portadown to Derry might have survived and so might a line via Enniskillen and a nationalised Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties to Collooney, maybe even Dundalk-Enniskillen, but that would be about all. A few others might have lasted a bit longer, but that would be influenced by the changed economic prospects of a united country. The rest of the lines would have gone at an early date as some were absolute basket cases: Castleblayney-Keady anyone?

 

[Calthrop]

The Derry Road from Portadown to Derry might have survived and so might a line via Enniskillen and a nationalised Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties to Collooney, maybe even Dundalk-Enniskillen, but that would be about all. A few others might have lasted a bit longer, but that would be influenced by the changed economic prospects of a united country. The rest of the lines would have gone at an early date as some were absolute basket cases: Castleblayney -- Keady anyone ?

(My bolding) -- oh, yes, that one: if I'm right, the first line in Ireland (weird outliers long ago, aside) to be abandoned -- in 1922. Inaugurated chiefly as a "blocking route" -- the Great Northern were worried about possible incursions into their territory, by the Midland Great Western northward from Kingscourt. Extremely short-lived: 1910 -- 1922, I believe: the GN were glad to have partition, as an excuse to get rid of it. A stretch which -- one figures -- very few line-bashers would have managed to bag !

 

[D6130]

(My bolding) -- oh, yes, that one: if I'm right, the first line in Ireland (weird outliers long ago, aside) to be abandoned -- in 1922. Inaugurated chiefly as a "blocking route" -- the Great Northern were worried about possible incursions into their territory, by the Midland Great Western northward from Kingscourt. Extremely short-lived: 1910 -- 1922, I believe: the GN were glad to have partition, as an excuse to get rid of it. A stretch which -- one figures -- very few line-bashers would have managed to bag !

IIRC, this line incorporated a fairly substantial masonry-arched viaduct. I wonder if it is still extant and walkable? Foot bashing anyone?

 

[Gloster]

IIRC, this line incorporated a fairly substantial masonry-arched viaduct. I wonder if it is still extant and walkable? Foot bashing anyone?

Presumably the Tassagh Viaduct north of Keady, which, according to its entry on Wikipedia, is still there.

 

[Calthrop]

Presumably the Tassagh Viaduct north of Keady, which, according to its entry on Wikipedia, is still there.

Tassagh Viaduct (its section of the line, in use until 1957 -- latterly, freight-only) is Grade B Listed: I saw it in 2016 -- splendid structure.

 

[D6130]

Presumably the Tassagh Viaduct north of Keady, which, according to its entry on Wikipedia, is still there.

Ah, yes. That's on the Keady-Armagh section which didn't close until 1957.

EDIT: Just seen that @Calthrop has just beaten me to it!

 

[Dr Hoo]

(My bolding) -- oh, yes, that one: if I'm right, the first line in Ireland (weird outliers long ago, aside) to be abandoned -- in 1922. Inaugurated chiefly as a "blocking route" -- the Great Northern were worried about possible incursions into their territory, by the Midland Great Western northward from Kingscourt. Extremely short-lived: 1910 -- 1922, I believe: the GN were glad to have partition, as an excuse to get rid of it. A stretch which -- one figures -- very few line-bashers would have managed to bag !

Was that the inspiration for the ‘disused loop line over the border’ in the film Oh, Mr Porter?

 

[Calthrop]

Was that the inspiration for the ‘disused loop line over the border’ in the film Oh, Mr Porter?

Could well have been, one feels... interestingly -- if I have things right -- after that line, no other line cut by the border was closed, for the following 35 years; with the sole exception of the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore in 1951: and picture got, I think, that that one had simply reached the end of its useful life -- its cross-border status not particularly a factor.