Equivalent of Beeching in other countries

[stuu]

Far fewer railway enthusiasts in France ! I seem to have a perception that in largely-Catholic countries, the hobby tends not to have very many followers -- maybe some generally-culture-related explanation for that?

It's an interesting question, there's an obvious north-south split in interest in railways. There's single digit numbers of tourist/preserved lines in Spain and Italy has hardly anything at all

 

[Howardh]

Do other countries have "heritage lines" over closed railways like we do?

 

[Taunton]

France can appear a bit of an outlier; substantial TGV long distance service, but everything else outside major urban areas much reduced if you are not going the TGV's way (ie to Paris). Likewise rural bus services, UK-style, seem to have pretty much disappeared as well. Considerable tracts of the country seem to have had no meaningful public transport at all for the last 40-50 years or so.

USA is similar, except that for TGV read air services. Actually, a lot of those to less populous areas of the country have disappeared as well.

 

[bspahh]

https://spoortijdlijn.nl/ is an interesting map which shows how the passenger rail network in the Netherlands built up. Its in Dutch, but in Chrome, Google Translate does a good job at translating to English.

 

[Calthrop]

Back to French Minor Railways - there is a substantial tome with that title by WJK Davies which gives an overview of each region and good detail of some.
Off-hand, the Correze, Tarn, Herault and Vivarais also survived the 30's cull.

Indeed they did -- as did a great number of other independent local-railway concerns, which are now lost -- metre gauge, standard gauge, and also a very little 600mm gauge ! An enormous amount of such, perished approximately during the decade 1945 -- 55. When Bryan Morgan's The End of the Line was published in 1955 (Morgan was of course not the first Briton to have experience of French minor railways, but it would seem safe to say that that book of his was the first attempt at a full "roll-call" of same, as in action at the time of publication): the author remarked in the book that as at 1955, there basically remained only odd remnants here and there, of France's minor-railway riches as had been, maybe a generation earlier -- and of course most of what there was left in '55, has now gone. (The four above-quoted systems lasted, to be covered accordingly by Morgan in The End of... ; the Herault system, though, had effectively only one line left with passenger service as at 1955; freight continued on other parts of the system, but Morgan -- understandably -- makes no attempt to keep tabs on freight doings.)

I find particularly heartbreaking (have mentioned this recently, elsewhere in these Forums), the huge loss of French minor railways over the quite short period 1946 -- 51 inclusive. Many thus affected: being still active or only very recently closed as at 1939, no doubt had their lives prolonged by the abnormal conditions of World War II / German occupation, and the multitude of shortages accompanying same; but once the war was over and some sort of quasi-normality returned, closures resumed apace -- and this time, for good. For a short while after the war, some minor-rail concerns did their best to improve and modernise services, and a few of these even quite prospered, briefly; but the temper of the times was overwhelmingly against local minor railways and in favour of road transport in their stead. Thousands of kilometres were abandoned, all over France, over those half-dozen years (1949 was a particularly hideous year); and a good deal more, albeit at a slower rate, shortly thereafter.

The Comite (missing accent) Rail-route was formed in 1935, proposed and implemented the replacement of all local passenger services with buses, on the national network, buses duplicating mainline rail services would also be withdrawn, and the use of railcars encouraged. The Reseau Breton lost its passenger services to Morlaix, La Bro, and Le Fret in 1939, also ordering six railcars.
With the outbreak of war, German occupation, and shortage of supplies, buses were rapidly taken off the road, and as already mentioned, rail services resumed which had only recently been withdrawn. In 1941, the RB took over the CFD Finistere, whose lines had closed 1937 - 1939, until the end of WW2, when all lines bar one closed again, this section was converted to standard gauge and lasted until 1963.
Le Fret lost its passenger services again in 1946 and La Bro (how the locals usually refer to the town) in 1953.
Apologies for missing accents.

No worries -- I also lack the gear to do accents on letters in foreign languages !

Morgan gives a few slightly wistful words to the easternmost stretch of the RB, to La Brohiniere to give that junction its full name. He mentions Loudeac as the terminus for passenger at time of publication, of the line eastward from Carhaix -- he writes, "here now the Reseau ends, though recently it trailed on to a further junction and for its last four miles ran side by side with the standard gauge [the SNCF's Ploermel branch] up a long incline to ["the La B place" !]. I loved that dying fall, that courteous handing-over of control: but it must be confessed that Loudeac was always the logical terminus of the system." He seems to be referring to La Bro's being located just within the departement of Ille-et-Vilaine -- administratively, but not culturally, part of Brittany -- being essentially mainstream-French rather than Celtic. In fact, Loudeac to La Bro remained in use for freight until the very end of metre-gauge working on the RB in 1967; but as mentioned above, Morgan "didn't do freight".

It's an interesting question, there's an obvious north-south split in interest in railways. There's single digit numbers of tourist/preserved lines in Spain and Italy has hardly anything at all

and @30907 writes: "The BRD/West Germany had a pretty substantial RC population, unlike the DDR, so I am not sure about that. And Czechia's dominant faith is also RC (though 'dominant' is hardly the word)..."

Re the "religion" element: it's only a vague notion floating around in my head, and maybe complete nonsense -- prompted in part, by the perceived paucity of railway enthusiasts / enthusiasm in Ireland, at present and in the past (there have of course always been some there, often very keen !) -- a situation, it seems to me, of more scarceness than explicable by the mathematics of Great Britain's having a much bigger population than Ireland.

My impression is that -- big generalisation, subject to many blips -- the north of West Germany tends to be Protestant, and the south Catholic. Have long had, from more than one source: picture that, since way before Communism, the Czech people have tended in the main, not to set very much store by religion -- they have been, historically, notionally and culturally Catholic (pace Jan Hus and all that !); but not in fact to care greatly about it all -- "voting with their feet" as it were. On the other hand, the Slovaks tend -- like their Polish neighbours -- to be strongly and seriously Catholic: one of the reasons why Czechoslovakia as a nation, was not altogether a resounding success.

 

[Taunton]

Hamilton-Ellis wrote, in 1950s Trains Illustrated, a comparison of holidays to Brittany in (probably just before) 1938, and about 1955, where in the first he used the narrow gauge line, and in the second as it had closed they had a lengthy bus ride along the coast from St Malo.

 

[341o2]

Two ways to enter foreign letters etc, is firstly, every letter, number, and symbol has a 3 digit ASCII code readily available online, entered by the number pad on your computer keyboard. Or copy and paste from a website. My excuse is that I used R. G. Harman's book as a reference, you can't copy and paste from it.
"Odd man out" Mallet no 41 was a regular performer on the line to La Brohinière for the last 10 years of metre gauge on the RB. Built in 1913 for the CF du Centre, within 20 years, that line had closed, and it spent the next 20 odd years being transferred several times, with each railway it went to finding little or no use for it. In 1953, it came to the RB, and spent a further four years out of use, until it was overhauled and put to work

 

[Howardh]

https://spoortijdlijn.nl/ is an interesting map which shows how the passenger rail network in the Netherlands built up. Its in Dutch, but in Chrome, Google Translate does a good job at translating to English.

Thanks for that! I thought once the line became dotted it was because it became unused, however using Google earth I can see that a number still appear to have fully working lines on then, so are those single track/goods/not for pax use?

Here's an example; single track crossing main road near Risdam;

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[30907]

No worries -- I also lack the gear to do accents on letters in foreign languages !

I have a dual keyboard on this tablet, because I need it a fair bit - but I don't think this forum should fuss over accents anyway.

Morgan gives a few slightly wistful words to the easternmost stretch of the RB,

...which I completely forgot about!

"The BRD/West Germany had a pretty substantial RC population, unlike the DDR, so I am not sure about that. And Czechia's dominant faith is also RC (though 'dominant' is hardly the word)..."

My impression is that -- big generalisation, subject to many blips -- the north of West Germany tends to be Protestant, and the south Catholic.

Historically, yes, but the wave of forced migration in 1945 put an end to the relics of states that were monochrome one or the other (even Bavaria!).

Have long had, from more than one source: picture that, since way before Communism, the Czech people have tended in the main, not to set very much store by religion -- they have been, historically, notionally and culturally Catholic (pace Jan Hus and all that !); but not in fact to care greatly about it all -- "voting with their feet" as it were.

True - the RC dominance was imposed along with political control by the Hapsburgs - and CZ is reportedly the most secular country in Europe.

On the other hand, the Slovaks tend -- like their Polish neighbours -- to be strongly and seriously Catholic: one of the reasons why Czechoslovakia as a nation, was not altogether a resounding success.

Slovakia was historically in the Hungarian part of the Empire, as the railway map shows - and strongly anti-Ottoman for understandable reasons.

BTW (and vaguely on-topic) Slovakia has had rather more Passenger closures than CZ.

 

[stuu]

Thanks for that! I thought once the line became dotted it was because it became unused, however using Google earth I can see that a number still appear to have fully working lines on then, so are those single track/goods/not for pax use?

Here's an example; single track crossing main road near Risdam;

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

That one is a Museum/preserved railway

 

[Howardh]

That one is a Museum/preserved railway

Thanks for the info!

 

[MadMarsupial]

New Zealand has had massive cutbacks. Only a handful of passenger trains a day on the South Island. Just checked - one train each way per day on both the TransAlpine and Coastal Pacific routes which only run on four days a week. So sixteen services a week!

 

[miklcct]

In Hong Kong, the KCR Wo Hop Shek branch was initially included in the modernisation programme (the proof is the existence of "Wo Hop Shek" destination blind on the electric trains). However, it ended up being demolished as it was not worthwhile to modernise the line.

The line was special that it was mainly used to transport the deceased to a cemetery, with normal passenger services only a few days per year. The job is now done by road transport.

 

[billio]

Thanks for that! I thought once the line became dotted it was because it became unused, however using Google earth I can see that a number still appear to have fully working lines on then, so are those single track/goods/not for pax use?

Here's an example; single track crossing main road near Risdam;

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Some of these dotted lines have been converted to 'Metro' services. Specifically the Rotterdam to Hoek van Holland and the Rotterdam to Den Haag line (Randstadrail). Some lines around Den Haag have been integrated into the tram network. As such, at times they run intensive commuter services.

 

[181]

In the USA I believe 50% of the passenger route mileage taken over by Amtrak in 1971 had service withdrawn on opening day, and only half the rolling stock in use on passenger services was retained. In fairness, these were the more extreme basket cases, of which there were a substantial number, but whole states lost all service.

(I think only 2 of the lower 48 states have no Amtrak train service at all, but there may have been more at times, and some have very limited service).

I don't know whether Canadian passenger services were significantly reduced whe VIA Rail took them over in the 1970s, but the network was reduced by more than 50% due to budget cuts in 1990 (my recollection is that that figure referred to the number of trains operated per week, so the reduction in route mileage might have been smaller, but still significant). Wikipedia says that there had previously been a 40% cut in 1981, but I think many of the services withdrawn then were restored within a few years, which mostly hasn't happened with the 1990 cuts.

 

[BRX]

Albania's already small and collapsing network has sadly seen creeping cutbacks just in the past decade or so. Road building carries on of course. A look at Wikipedia just now suggests virtually the whole network is currently out of operation. There seems to be talk of investment and rehabilitation but I've no idea how likely that is to materialise.

 

[Calthrop]

https://spoortijdlijn.nl/ is an interesting map which shows how the passenger rail network in the Netherlands built up. Its in Dutch, but in Chrome, Google Translate does a good job at translating to English.

@bspahh: I find items of this kind ("animated" maps showing waxing-and-waning over historical periods) absolutely fascinating, in any context. You posted this map, did you not, a couple of years ago in a thread in the International Transport sub-forum? I made then, a post in comment -- said comments of mine then, were on a subject relevant to this thread, re France and its minor lines under a variety of independent ownerships -- thus, repeating them here. The Netherlands were of course at one time, in similar case -- having had as well as their dense "normal / orthodox" network, a multitude of lesser lines, independently owned and mostly in the general "steam tramway" ballpark (also some electric lines): all this having been a mixture of standard gauge, and a variety of narrow gauges. (These Netherlands minor lines perished early: little of them was left by about the 1950s -- if I'm right, effectively nothing now remains.)

With the relatively small size of the on-screen map, it would of course have been impossible to feature the Netherlands' minor railways as above, in addition to the country's "real" railway system. One feature that does show up, is an area in the far north -- a fair-sized, roughly triangular patch bounded by Groningen, Leeuwarden and Meppel, all -- throughout the history of Dutch railways -- "blank" within. This in a context of the normal / orthodox rail network; in fact this seemingly blank area was served, "back in the day", by a number of lines of a particular -- in this case, standard gauge -- steam-tramway network.

Hamilton-Ellis wrote, in 1950s Trains Illustrated, a comparison of holidays to Brittany in (probably just before) 1938, and about 1955, where in the first he used the narrow gauge line, and in the second as it had closed they had a lengthy bus ride along the coast from St Malo.

I'm pretty sure that I have in the part, read this article. That bloke certainly did a good deal of highly enviable stuff on the Continent pre-1940 !

Two ways to enter foreign letters etc, is firstly, every letter, number, and symbol has a 3 digit ASCII code readily available online, entered by the number pad on your computer keyboard.

I will try this -- am very far from the world's most competent person re the intricacies of computer use; so, frankly, with no certainty of success ! In times past I had a splendid "all-singing-and-dancing" computer fitment which let me do accents; but things have so worked out that I no longer have it.

True - the RC dominance was imposed along with political control by the Hapsburgs - and CZ is reportedly the most secular country in Europe.

My bolding -- I'd thought that that was Estonia: per an item which I seem to recall reading, something like 60% of the population there stoutly identify as atheist.

 

[341o2]

New Zealand has had massive cutbacks. Only a handful of passenger trains a day on the South Island. Just checked - one train each way per day on both the TransAlpine and Coastal Pacific routes which only run on four days a week. So sixteen services a week!

I should have thought of NZ, which decided to operate only a few passenger trains - but those that run have to be good.
Tasmania has a rail network, but no regular passenger services today
Cyprus used to have a railway which was closed in 1951

 

[bspahh]

@bspahh: I find items of this kind ("animated" maps showing waxing-and-waning over historical periods) absolutely fascinating, in any context. You posted this map, did you not, a couple of years ago in a thread in the International Transport sub-forum? I made then, a post in comment -- said comments of mine then, were on a subject relevant to this thread, re France and its minor lines under a variety of independent ownerships -- thus, repeating them here. The Netherlands were of course at one time, in similar case -- having had as well as their dense "normal / orthodox" network, a multitude of lesser lines, independently owned and mostly in the general "steam tramway" ballpark (also some electric lines): all this having been a mixture of standard gauge, and a variety of narrow gauges. (These Netherlands minor lines perished early: little of them was left by about the 1950s -- if I'm right, effectively nothing now remains.)

@Calthrop This is the previous thread on https://spoortijdlijn.nl

 

[Bletchleyite]

Albania's already small and collapsing network has sadly seen creeping cutbacks just in the past decade or so. Road building carries on of course. A look at Wikipedia just now suggests virtually the whole network is currently out of operation. There seems to be talk of investment and rehabilitation but I've no idea how likely that is to materialise.

A complete rebuild of the Durres-Tirana line and an extension to the airport is actually in progress (there's a FB page which follows it called Hekurudha ne Shquiptare or somesuch that posts about it).

The rest might be a while, though I think Vora-Shkoder (or part of that line) may still be operating.

With regard to Germany because it's regionalised it's just as easy to bin off a train service as it is a subsidised bus service in the UK, so lines are disappearing all the time as "nichts bestellt" - nothing ordered.

Switzerland is safer, but there have been station closures to enable changes of service pattern, e.g. some local stations on the Geneva-Brig "Riviera Line". There are also a couple of preserved lines e.g. Chamby-Blonay.

 

[urbophile]

Far fewer railway enthusiasts in France ! I seem to have a perception that in largely-Catholic countries, the hobby tends not to have very many followers -- maybe some generally-culture-related explanation for that?

I would have thought that there was a strong correlation between being a Catholic and a train enthusiast. There certainly is with Anglicanism and especially clergy, many of whom volunteer on preserved railways. It's all to do with control (the tracks keep you from going astray), aspiration (the connection to wonderful far-off places), and ritual (the uniforms, the protocols, the smoke).

 

[BRX]

A complete rebuild of the Durres-Tirana line and an extension to the airport is actually in progress (there's a FB page which follows it called Hekurudha ne Shquiptare or somesuch that posts about it).

The rest might be a while, though I think Vora-Shkoder (or part of that line) may still be operating.

Thanks. Have been having a look at that facebook page.

Hekurudha në Shqipëri

Hekurudha në Shqipëri. 1,598 likes · 86 talking about this. Information and photos about the railways in Albania.

www.facebook.com

 

[The exile]

With regard to Germany because it's regionalised it's just as easy to bin off a train service as it is a subsidised bus service in the UK, so lines are disappearing all the time as "nichts bestellt" - nothing ordered.

Not quite true - the service can disappear almost at the drop of a hat, but the line itself has much more protection than here in the UK. The Entwidmungsprozess (removal of dedication of the track bed for railway purposes) is not quick!

 

[30907]

I would have thought that there was a strong correlation between being a Catholic and a train enthusiast. There certainly is with Anglicanism and especially clergy, many of whom volunteer on preserved railways. It's all to do with control (the tracks keep you from going astray), aspiration (the connection to wonderful far-off places), and ritual (the uniforms, the protocols, the smoke).

Or maybe, as the apocryphal vicar said when asked why he went down each afternoon to watch the express pass, "it's the only thing in this parish that moves without me pushing it." (For the avoidance of doubt, his statement isn't remotely true.)

Sorry, way OT.

 

[Richard Scott]

A complete rebuild of the Durres-Tirana line and an extension to the airport is actually in progress (there's a FB page which follows it called Hekurudha ne Shquiptare or somesuch that posts about it).

The rest might be a while, though I think Vora-Shkoder (or part of that line) may still be operating.

Elbesan to Durres operates a passenger service at weekends. There may be freight on other sections.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Northern Ireland had the 'Benson' report in 1963 (Henry Benson was an English accountant recommended by Dr B. no less), which advocated retaining only the Larne, Bangor and Dublin lines - the latter only retained for political purposes and to be singled to the border. Fortunately one line to Londonderry/Derry was eventually reprieved, but the anti-rail sentiment of the UTA and government was notorious - one minister describing the 'railways as redundant as the stagecoach'.

Benson is actually supposed to have been on the point of recommending that the entire UTA rail system be closed, but when he made his study tour of Northern Ireland the severity of the traffic congestion in the Belfast area supposedly convinced him to spare the suburban lines. (However, I don't know how well attested this claim is.)

A lot of lines in NI closed pre-Benson; the Belfast & County Down (Bangor line excepted) and passenger services on the minor LMS(NCC) lines went in 1950 under the UTA, and the Great Northern Railway Board closed a considerable mileage in the border area in 1957.

The only line closures that took place directly on foot of Benson were the Warrenpoint branch and the "Derry Road" (Portadown to Derry/Londonderry), both closed in 1965 - but the latter was arguably the most serious loss anywhere on the island.

In the Republic the bête noire was Todd Andrews, appointed chairman of CIE in 1958. He pursued a very aggressive closure programme - ironically one of the first lines to go was the heavily used Harcourt Street commuter route in Dublin, but now pleasingly reactivated as part of Luas.

It's very true that Andrews is the person traditionally blamed for the closures, and it's also true that he implemented them enthusiastically. However, the popular narrative tends to ignore that the Irish equivalent of the Reshaping report was the Beddy Report (Report of the Committee of Inquiry into Internal Transport). This was published in May 1957, whereas Andrews didn't even become chairman of CIÉ until September of the following year, and it was the work of a committee including experts and representatives of business and agricultural interests; Andrews wasn't among them, and neither was anyone else from CIÉ. Additionally, according to Ó Riain in On the Move: Córas Iompair Éireann 1945-95, the committee conducted "extensive oral hearings with various groups including the management of CIÉ, other transport companies and trade unions." (The report can be read at https://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/Library2/DL010419.pdf.)

Andrews didn't close anything that wasn't proposed for closure by Beddy (the only lines that Beddy intended to survive but that eventually closed were Mullingar-Athlone and Waterford-Rosslare, but neither of them closed until much later), though, as I say, he was enthusiastic about implementing Beddy's recommendations. I think he tends to get the blame partly because he was quite confrontational in the cases where controversies did arise over closures and partly because he was a party political figure (Fianna Fáil) and pointing to him in later years enabled the other parties to say "that wasn't us," even though the closures weren't a party political issue at the time. (Another common myth about the closures is that they were somehow done in imitation of Beeching, when the Beddy report was published in 1957 and the closure programme started in 1959 and was, in fact, at its peak by the time Beeching's report was released.)

 

[stuu]

There seems to be quite a few closed lines in the Dordogne region some of which have been turned into cycle routes. Would they have likely closed sometime around 1938 then? I can’t seem to find much information about them.

@Cowley I found this (French) website this morning - which lists all former railways by départment with a few details but unfortunately doesn't have a map of them. If you find out the name of the line you may well find out more by searching using the proper name

 

[Gloster]

@Cowley I found this (French) website this morning - which lists all former railways by départment with a few details but unfortunately doesn't have a map of them. If you find out the name of the line you may well find out more by searching using the proper name

From a quick look, I think that it only covers the secondaires, not those that were part of the main national network.

 

[Cowley]

@Cowley I found this (French) website this morning - which lists all former railways by départment with a few details but unfortunately doesn't have a map of them. If you find out the name of the line you may well find out more by searching using the proper name

Ah good. I’ll have a look at that this evening.

 

[D6130]

@Cowley I found this (French) website this morning - which lists all former railways by départment with a few details but unfortunately doesn't have a map of them. If you find out the name of the line you may well find out more by searching using the proper nam

My retired French railwayman friend in Paris - with whom my wife and I will be staying tonight and tomorrow night en route back from Italy - has the route map from the 1933 Chaix timetable framed and wall-mounted in his apartment. It shows all standard gauge and narrow gauge lines - as well as rural and interurban tramways - with enlargements for major towns and cities. It is incredibly complex and detailed and I could look at it for hours. I wonder if it is available somewhere on the web!