Dyncymraeg
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- Joined
- 17 Jul 2019
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- 9
Were there instances in other countries where rail lines were heavily cut as with Beeching in the UK.
Most developed countries, and several developing countries have been through a closure programme. Where GB differs from most others is that a report was produced detailing the reshaping of the railways.Were there instances in other countries where rail lines were heavily cut as with Beeching in the UK.
Another difference is that the main statutory protection in the UK (since the 1960s) has been on the passenger service - once that’s gone, there’s little protection for the trackbed. In Germany, the big protection is on the trackbed, meaning it’s more likely to be still there to reopen!In the DDR rail transport of goods was given priority by law. After 1990 many lines were closed.
Now there is half-hearted talk of trying to reopen some. In practice enormously expensive prestige projects (high-speed new lines, Stuttgart21) are favored.
A very similar situation to that in the UK, but the period until the mistake was realised was maybe shorter in Germany.
Major "bingo!" on all of these points.I don’t claim any knowledge of foreign closures, but it’s worth remembering that foreign *openings* were probably a bit more sensible than some of the nineteenth century speculators in the UK, where it wasn’t unusual to have two lines trying to do the same thing
I’m sure that being first (to build railways) was a disadvantage for us as we couldn’t learn lessons from other countries that planned/ organised much better in the first place
Plus, as pointed out above, the lack of decentralisation in UK Government meant that decisions had to be done nationally that might have been more delicately handled if we had regional equivalent of German “,Landtag” to handle “local issues for local people”, so of course Beeching looks like a huge amount of closures, because we insisted on everything being at a Westminster level
Yes, it was nearly all done on one day in early 1985.Spain had a big closure programme in the mid 1980s, removing some major cross country links and branch lines
And the UK seemed to be in a rush under Wilson to become “modern” - Continental countries has come out of the war with long term adjustments/ restructuring planned for the future of the economy - I don’t know if we were too complacent for the first twenty-ish years after 1945 (or tied up with things like the NHS/ Welfare State/ Suez/ Empire etc) but we don’t seem to have paid so much attention to industrial innovation until Wilson got into power, then there was a sudden urgency to catch up, to innovate, to close down the failing industries, that we needed something like Beeching rather than taking a slow methodical approach over the previous couple of decades (not blaming this on Wilson, you could argue that he was trying to do the right thing but had been left with too much on his plate by the complacency of previous governments?)
The last I can think of being in Thüringen and Brandenburg in the mid 2000s. In the BRD there were plenty of closures in the 70s/80s..In the DDR rail transport of goods was given priority by law. After 1990 many lines were closed.
...plus a steady trickle of re-openings, mainly but not wholly in the "West" which hasn't suffered the rural depopulation of Brandenburg and Mecklenburg.Now there is half-hearted talk of trying to reopen some. In practice enormously expensive prestige projects (high-speed new lines, Stuttgart21) are favored.
AIUI following a recent referendum communities above a certain minimal size are required to have a minimum level of service (hourly daytime?).Any idea in developements in train heaven Switzerland?
Most developed countries, and several developing countries have been through a closure programme. Where GB differs from most others is that a report was produced detailing the reshaping of the railways.
The French closed large portions of their rural network back in the 1930s.
... while France had numerous metre gauge lines, all gone, apart from a few tourist lines ...
There is another SNCF metre gauge line near Orleans.
France was still building rural railways up to about 1930, so there were some that didn't even survive for a decade
I suspect the OP may be referring to the Blanc Argent. It is not too far from Orleans.Interesting -- rings no bell with me -- could you give more detail?
Pretty well the ultimate in that which comes to mind for me: the several short terminal offshoots from the Nice -- Digne line, mentioned upthread (run by other concerns, than the Nice -- Digne's company): all, I think, opened post-World War I, and all extremely short-lived -- one anyway of them, something like five years, I believe.
Yes, that's right, I misread Calthrop's postI suspect the OP may be referring to the Blanc Argent. It is not too far from Orleans.
France experienced what was by a considerably-sized margin, Europe's first systematic rail-passenger holocaust of the Beeching sort: in 1938, when nationalisation of the half-dozen notionally-independent "big" railway companies, to form the SNCF; was accompanied by a massive, rapidly implemented, passenger-service-withdrawal programme on lesser (and often not-so-lesser) lines of same, encompassing some 10,000 route kilometres. The exercise was referred to as public-passenger "co-ordination" -- in theory (less so in practice) involving orderly substitution for the withdrawn rail services, by bus services. (The great majority of the lines which were thus victims in 1938, remained in use for freight; some continuing so, for many decades henceforth.) This "co-ordination" has been the subject of controversy ever since; with many seeing it as a move prompted by political or other vested interests, rather than a truly salutary one.
Prior to this 1938 episode, relatively few of the big companies' lesser lines had lost their passenger services; though on France's huge kilometrage of local rail undertakings (both standard and narrow gauge) independent of the big companies -- while these were unaffected by 1938's "co-ordination" as such, many fell on hard times, and closed, throughout the 1930s. Something of a "bright spot amidst darkness" (for a few people) came to be, with the onset of World War II and its shortages -- especially of fuel oil -- a situation intensified by France's falling under German domination in 1940. In response, a considerable number of passenger services withdrawn at "co-ordination", were resumed, envisagedly "for the duration" -- some of this happening also, on independent local lines closed shortly before the war, but still in situ. With nearly all such wartime passenger reopenings: the services were withdrawn once more, quite shortly after the end of the war -- as soon as things were back to having some resemblance to normal.
I suspect the OP may be referring to the Blanc Argent. It is not too far from Orleans.
Yes, that's right, I misread Calthrop's post
Very interesting @Calthrop.
There seems to be quite a few closed lines in the Dordogne region some of which have been turned into cycle routes. Would they have likely closed sometime around 1938 then? I can’t seem to find much information about them.
Ah, right -- sorry ! Nomenclature-wise, the Le Blanc -- Argent line is on the misleading side. It indeed connects with the Region Sud-Ouest's main line south from Paris, at Salbris some 60 km. south of Orleans; however, only the middle part of its once very considerable route length, is still in use. Its respective sections to its "White" -- Le Blanc -- (south-western); and "Silver" -- Argent-sur-Sauldre -- (north-eastern) extremities; closed very long ago.
As in my post upthread -- I'd think it likely that a considerable proportion of these lines lost their passenger services in the 1938 "Co-ordination"; but that post-that event, the majority anyway of their route length, stayed in use for freight for decades after -- cycle-route-conversion happening subsequent to withdrawal at last, of freight traffic. Also -- some lesser lines of the "big companies" / new SNCF, kept their passenger services post-Co-Ordination; this tending to happen in hilly areas such as the Dordogne, more than in the regions of low-lying, gentle scenery further north. Some of the cycle routes may have come to be on such lines, when they finally closed -- to pass. and / or freight? -- much later than the 1930s / 40s.
There is a wonderful series of books on the history of now-closed ex-"big companies" / SNCF lines -- replete with excellent maps, and pictures from assorted periods -- one volume for each SNCF region, every line covered. Published, I think, by Les Editions du Cabri. A friend of mine, with greater resources than available to me, owns the whole set: "way back", he kindly lent me them, region by region; unfortunately such information as I gleaned from them then, is no longer physically with me. These tomes could most probably be purchased; but probably, I fear, at a price which -- as the chap put it -- "would look as though it had been worked out by the Astronomer Royal in light-years".
There’s a potential sociology thesis right there!Far fewer railway enthusiasts in France ! I seem to have a perception that in largely-Catholic countries, the hobby tends not to have very many followers -- maybe some generally-culture-related explanation for that?
The BRD/West Germany had a pretty substantial RC population, unlike the DDR, so I am not sure about that. And Czechia's dominant faith is also RC (though "dominant" is hardly the word!)....Far fewer railway enthusiasts in France ! I seem to have a perception that in largely-Catholic countries, the hobby tends not to have very many followers -- maybe some generally-culture-related explanation for that?