EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Antman]

We'll see? What kind of policy / strategy is "we'll see"? That's what you say when your four year old wants to do something that you'd rather not do.

So what we're saying is that the country is awash with uncertainty and the only answer is "we'll see". No wonder the financial markets are at rock bottom when the Government policy is "we'll see".

This is a shambles and it will only get worse as people start to lose their jobs.

You can scaremonger all you like but you're just going to have to accept the result just as I would have to if it went the other way.

 

[Howardh]

A referendum is a very blunt political instrument with which to approach complex problems. We do not have a politically sophisticated electorate, outside of clusters of well educated people in big cities, and most people do not have the time or inclination to confront complexity. This is why most astute politicians do all they can to avoid calling referenda,

The biggest problem with our referendum was it was a simple in/out, not "what do you want us to do next if you vote out?" Because it's so complex it should have been for our elected representatives to vote for, and not us.

But we're stuck with it. I'd like to know from Brexiters what a successful leave will look like, and what they would accept is failure.

 

[Antman]

A far right group wanting it. I think I know exactly what they want too. It will be about immigration first and foremost.

For the record, I am concerned about the problems we've seen since allowing in millions of refugees. Not the genuine ones, but we know that perhaps more than half AREN'T genuine. They have fake ID, or no ID, and lie about their age (even in their 30s) to get access to young children - and SOME then go on to commit rape and even murder (many in Sweden last year).

We saw what happened in Cologne and has happened elsewhere, with Germans even giving advice to women on not attracting too much attention to themselves.

This is real. It got so bad some sections of the media couldn't pretend it wasn't happening, but then come the referendum everyone shut up because it was clear that this was going to become a major issue that convinced people it was time to go.

That's the same thinking in Sweden, Denmark, France, Holland and even in Germany.. so the EU is going to suffer. In many ways we can thank Angela Merkal for creating this mess.

BUT, a big problem as this is, it's NOT enough to justify leaving the EU for all the benefits we get. Immigration issues can be dealt with, and even outside the EU, we as a nation that has a tradition of helping people will still decide to let them in on humanitarian grounds. And we'll likely still let in people who shouldn't be let in.

The EU has its flaws, but my goodness, how can we think going it alone fixes them. It just makes us have to work out all the same problems on our own.

Immigration is the number one priority for many people and understandably so.

I suspect our withdrawl will be the beginning of the end of the EU with many other countries following suit.

 

[northwichcat]

There will be very little time for Labour to re engage with their 'lost' former supporters and the danger is that they will go on looking for someone/something to blame and vote in large enough numbers for UKIP, in those areas that most strongly voted for Brexit, that the next Government will be a right wing Tory/UKIP coalition.

If you recall the Scottish Referendum resulted in a Stay win, but the number of Scots voting for the pro-leave SNP in the following general election went through the roof.

Could the reverse of what you describe not happen and the 48% of people who voted Remain in the EU referendum be put off from voting Conservative and result in the pro-EU Lib Dems winning back the seats they lost to the Conservatives at the last election? If UKIP also win seats from the Conservatives then it could be a hung parliament where Labour have the most seats.

It also appears a lot of 16 and 17 year olds would have voted Remain if they'd be given the chance so the Conservatives may not get as many new voters as they have got in the past.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You can scaremonger all you like but you're just going to have to accept the result just as I would have to if it went the other way.

I'm not "scaremongering", I'm simply stating the facts. The fact that you don't want to read the facts show's that you don't want to know the uncomfortable truth. Well tough.

What you're really saying is that almost over night the country has been taken over by the asylum and we're going to have to let them get on with running it. The master plan being "we'll see".

 

[krus_aragon]

So many protest votes from clueless people who didn't have a clue what they were doing, as shown by Google data that reveals a MASSIVE surge in searches along the likes of 'what is the EU', 'who is in the EU', 'what happens if we leave the EU'. AFTER the results were announced.

So given that all these people were misinformed, despite the weeks and months of campaigning, what more should have been done, in your opinion?

 

[Howardh]

I suspect our withdrawl will be the beginning of the end of the EU with many other countries following suit.

That is something I agree with. But to counter that, UK is now the fall guy and we will be closely watched, and any hint of failure could result in the EU getting closer.

Being (almost) an island and we end up not controlling our borders - or end up wit a civil war trying to close our only land border - then how will Germany and France get on when they have 1000's of km's land borders?

Maybe in 20 years we will end up with a european community of the larger states (F, D, NL, UKL, ESP), and the smaller ones having their own + eastern europe, Turkey etc.
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I'm not "scaremongering", I'm simply stating the facts. The fact that you don't want to read the facts show's that you don't want to know the uncomfortable truth. Well tough.

What you're really saying is that almost over night the country has been taken over by the asylum and we're going to have to let them get on with running it. The master plan being "we'll see".

I now classify myself as an Asylum Leaver.
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If you recall the Scottish Referendum resulted in a Stay win, but the number of Scots voting for the pro-leave SNP in the following general election went through the roof.

Could the reverse of what you describe not happen and the 48% of people who voted Remain in the EU referendum be put off from voting Conservative and result in the pro-EU Lib Dems winning back the seats they lost to the Conservatives at the last election? If UKIP also win seats from the Conservatives then it could be a hung parliament where Labour have the most seats.

It also appears a lot of 16 and 17 year olds would have voted Remain if they'd be given the chance so the Conservatives may not get as many new voters as they have got in the past.

Much as I'd like that to happen, I don't think they've a chance, will be completely forgotten :cry:
However if there's an election before we leave in the vain hope we can pull our country back, there will have to be some serious tactical voting; we will have to put aside our normal voting habits and go with the candidate who is pro-EU. Think there are 650 seats, so take out the 50+Scots bankers and I reckon the rest of the UK needs to win 275 pro-EU seats.

 

[jon0844]

So Vote Leave are not only admitting diverting £350m to the NHS was misleading, they are also saying there will be no target to reduce immigration but they will have greater control over which people come in. So basically the two main points which will have attracted a number of people to Vote Leave were both lies.

Business like low paid workers. We'll want to find a way to continue allowing Polish people to shack up 2 or 3 to a room, earn some money and go back home far richer than someone who has to actually try and live here.

More to the point, Boris will be in a party that will continue to allow businesses to do this.

Brexit voters haven't gained a Government that is going to round up all the foreigners and put them in camps before deporting them. Now I hear Calais is saying it will seek to stop allowing border checks in France if we leave, it seems we may have even more people arriving in the UK that we have to deal with.

 

[Senex]

I'd like to know from Brexiters what a successful leave will look like, and what they would accept is failure.

That's what I'd like to know too, given that no acceptable model was presented during the campaign.

How credible is Boris as a possible leader after his close association with what are now being admitted to be the lies about the £350 million, the control of immigration, etc?

And what are we to make the of reports that Cornwall and Wales, having voted for Brexit, now expect guarantees -- presumably from the taxpayers of England -- that they will continue to get the equivalent of what they have been getting from the EU?

Was there ever a leap into the unknown (or even into the abyss) like this one?

 

[Howardh]

Now I hear Calais is saying it will seek to stop allowing border checks in France if we leave, it seems we may have even more people arriving in the UK that we have to deal with.

For the last two months I've been saying Brexit would INCREASE immigration, but too many people with their fingers in their ears going "la la la la la".
Even my flaming Brexit MP reluctantly agreed with me.

 

[jon0844]

So given that all these people were misinformed, despite the weeks and months of campaigning, what more should have been done, in your opinion?

I am not sure anything else could have been done. I remember thinking last summer when we saw weeks of TV showing the people arriving in Europe, then the stories about the crimes over New Year and into this spring, that it would further the far-right cause, which has happened in Germany, Sweden, Denmark and beyond.

There's a new sense of hate out in the open and new people to listen and repeat that it's all the fault of immigrants.

At that point I really feared for us having promised a referendum.

The problem goes back years, and not helped by not allowing people to talk about immigration concerns. Banning people from talking about things, calling them racist, doesn't stop the problem.

We've been building up to this for years. Now all of Europe is going to have to face up to similar problems. A lot of blame can be put on Merkel in my opinion. She tried to say that we were all nasty people for not caring about people arriving on boats in the tens of thousands - when it wasn't that we didn't care, but rather we could see all the people slipping into the queues that we really don't want.

That wasn't enough to make us leave the EU though, especially as we were/are pretty well sheltered from the issue by not having joined Schengen. I suspect a lot of voters don't even know or appreciate what that is.

 

[Howardh]

T
And what are we to make the of reports that Cornwall and Wales, having voted for Brexit, now expect guarantees -- presumably from the taxpayers of England -- that they will continue to get the equivalent of what they have been getting from the EU?

Yes, that's in the Indie I think. Bloody joke, they want out but still want the money, well tough. I'm sure Antman can send them a tenner, maybe all the Brexiter's can have a whip-round
Think that's guaranteed until 2020 - covered by the UK government. After that - well, it all up in the air, isn't it? Which comes first - NHS or Cornwall??

 

[jon0844]

For the last two months I've been saying Brexit would INCREASE immigration, but too many people with their fingers in their ears going "la la la la la".
Even my flaming Brexit MP reluctantly agreed with me.

Assuming we kickstart Article 50, and decide to leave entirely, I suspect there would be some concessions for those already here. And as such, I wonder how many people will now come to the UK to try and get settled before it's too late?

Suffice to say, businesses aren't going to be upset about that.

 

[Howardh]

Assuming we kickstart Article 50, and decide to leave entirely, I suspect there would be some concessions for those already here. And as such, I wonder how many people will now come to the UK to try and get settled before it's too late?

Suffice to say, businesses aren't going to be upset about that.

That was the exact point I put to Toryboy and he had to agree. Would he go to the press and explain that...:roll:

 

[jon0844]

Many more people may come even if they know they'll have to go back, thinking it's 'now or never'.

A lot of workers aren't settling here (although some may decide to even if it wasn't their plan) and will live in cramped conditions for 3 months or so, just to earn more money than at home.

An ex-renter next door worked for the NHS and came over from Poland for two months at a time, before going back home. It obviously worked out well for him, and he never really considered himself resident here - it was just work, perhaps akin to working on an oil rig or something.

This is what I didn't get when we had so many people moaning about these Europeans coming over and claiming benefits, getting houses etc. Most weren't doing that at all. They were coming to work. They paid tax (albeit maybe not that much given the low pay) and would have spent some of their money in the local economy.

 

[Antman]

Business like low paid workers. We'll want to find a way to continue allowing Polish people to shack up 2 or 3 to a room, earn some money and go back home far richer than someone who has to actually try and live here.

More to the point, Boris will be in a party that will continue to allow businesses to do this.

Brexit voters haven't gained a Government that is going to round up all the foreigners and put them in camps before deporting them. Now I hear Calais is saying it will seek to stop allowing border checks in France if we leave, it seems we may have even more people arriving in the UK that we have to deal with.

Is any cross channel ferry operator really going to let people onboard without the correct documentation?
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I'm not "scaremongering", I'm simply stating the facts. The fact that you don't want to read the facts show's that you don't want to know the uncomfortable truth. Well tough.

What you're really saying is that almost over night the country has been taken over by the asylum and we're going to have to let them get on with running it. The master plan being "we'll see".

Yadder yadder yadder.............................you're saying what you hope will happen:roll:

 

[Domh245]

Is any cross channel ferry operator really going to let people onboard without the correct documentation?

Do you think all these refugees will be queuing up to board ferries and cross to Britain legally? Or will they stow away somewhere, use RHIBs or other small vessels to cross the channel, or even go for a stroll through the chunnel. Certainly the French Police won't have any interest in attempting to stop them any more.

 

[Howardh]

Is any cross channel ferry operator really going to let people onboard without the correct documentation?

X-channel ferry operators aren't immigration officials - unless Brexit want officials on the cheap - and in any case ferries can't stop EU travellers for the next two years at least.
As for stopping non-EU's such as the Calais migrants, I've no idea what the situation is. If they haven't a ferry ticket, fair enough, they shouldn't be allowed on/kicked off - but if they can somehow buy one, and go past immigration in Calais with the documentation they have??
What exactly is the situation?

 

[TheKnightWho]

There's nothing moronic about it at all, shame you can't see comprehend anything than your own opinion:roll:
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Empty comments like this are not going to change anything:roll:

Your increasingly insulting and meaningless comments show that people are really cutting to the bone.

There was no plan, there were no contingencies and you have obviously got no idea what you're talking about given the problems that are going down.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Do you think all these refugees will be queuing up to board ferries and cross to Britain legally? Or will they stow away somewhere, use RHIBs or other small vessels to cross the channel, or even go for a stroll through the chunnel. Certainly the French Police won't have any interest in attempting to stop them any more.

...or perhaps the French will simply pass them on to the UK Border agency in southern England and say 'these people wish to come to the UK. Here they are , you deal with them here and not in Calais.' They might even provide transport for them, and at the same time it would rid Calais of a very unsavoury issue that they have 'managed' (or not) for some years now. Why wouldn't they?

 

[TheKnightWho]

We'll see, we'd have been in even more trouble if we had remained in the EU.

Oh and it seems a similar referendum could be on the agenda in France and possibly elsewhere, presumably you think they don't know what they're doing either?

No, there is no evidence for this. The evidence is that leaving has caused serious problems already in comparison to remaining.

 

[backontrack]

Is any cross channel ferry operator really going to let people onboard without the correct documentation?

Yadder yadder yadder.............................you're saying what you hope will happen:roll:

Why do you want us to leave the EU?

 

[krus_aragon]

A referendum is a very blunt political instrument with which to approach complex problems. We do not have a politically sophisticated electorate, outside of clusters of well educated people in big cities, and most people do not have the time or inclination to confront complexity. This is why most astute politicians do all they can to avoid calling referenda,

The tradition of calling referenda in this country is a very recent one, of course. Let me present to you my translation of an article the political commentator Vaughan Roderick posted on the BBC's Welsh-medium news website on the 14th of this month (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw/36527481):

The Wine Turns Sour

There's an element of mythology to the belief that the UK constitution is an unwritten one. It is possible to read it - if you know where to look. To save time, you can read the constitutions of one of the other countries that use the Westminster System. Canada or Australia will do but there are others too.

One of its essential elements is that it is a system of democratic representation - a cornerstone that was best summarised by Edmund Burke in his famous speech to the electorate of Bristol. You are probably familiar with the phrase but in case you aren't, here it is.

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

The idea that the enthusiasm of the populace needs to be curbed is one with deep roots. In the classical world Plato argues that too much democracy inevitably leads to dictatorship and that is also the main theme in Shakespeare's Coriolanus and some of his other dramas.

Until the European referendum of 1975 the thought of asking the electorate to decide on a single issue was antipathetic to British politicians and it's worth noting the circumstances that led to that referendum as they are surprisingly similar to those that led to the current vote.

Back in 1972 as the European Communities Bill made its way through parliament Labour was badly split. The majority of the parliamentary party supported joining the Common Market while the unions, the national executive and the majority of the grass-roots troops were fiercely opposed to the "European Capitalist Club" as they called it.

In an tactical manouvre to convey a false image of unity the political party supported an amendment to the measure calling for a referendum - an amendment that was sure to fail.

The tactic worked too. What harm, then, in using the same idea when drawing up the party's manifesto for the election of February 1974 - an election that nobody expected Labour to win? The referendum was meant to be an empty promise that wouldn't need to be actioned - but Pandora's box had been opened and the cat was out of the bag, and when Labour were elected into government they had no choice but to go ahead and do it.

Harold Wilson succeeded to with the vote through a show of re-negotiating Britain's terms of membership and a lot of scaremongering but a precedence had been set. That precedence led to the two referenda in 1979 that deferred devolution in Wales and Scotland for a generation.

Now let us look at today's situation. Like Wilson's, Cameron's promise to hold a referendum on membership of the EU was an attempt to ensure unity within his party. There's no need to be a complete cynic to believe it was his intention to drop the idea immediately during talks for a second coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

But again, like Wilson, Cameron won an unexpected majority and painted himself into a corner on the issue of holding a referendum. The difference this time is that the mock-negotiations and scaremongering have yet to convince the electorate.

If the opinion polls are correct, and that's a big 'if', a parliament where three quarter of the members are in favour of remaining in the EU are about to be forced into passing laws against their will - and all because of the folly of a Conservative that forgot his conservatism.

I mentioned Plato earlier an I'll finish by quoting two other great philosophers, namely [musicians] Caryl Parry Jones and Myfyr Isaac! "If there's someone listening to my song down the wire, the play soon turns sour when playing with fire."

 

[jon0844]

Why do you want us to leave the EU?

He's already mentioned immigration. What hasn't been said by those who voted for this reason is what we will now do about it. Or explaining how allowing foreigners in from outside the EU had anything to do with the referendum, given we weren't letting them in from the EU anyway.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Don't be so hard on Antman, his comments give the impression that this was the first time he'd been eligible to vote.

I've been watching this chat and Antman and his wee chum haven't answered the question about what the plan is once even though they've been asked approximately 20 times.

The answer is they haven't got a clue. No-one seems to have a clue unfortunately.

I want to see the Fenlands rise up and drive the nation to this indescribable golden time. I rather suspect they'll sit on their arses and bleat.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I've been watching this chat and Antman and his wee chum haven't answered the question about what the plan is once even though they've been asked approximately 20 times.

The answer is they haven't got a clue. No-one seems to have a clue unfortunately.

I want to see the Fenlands rise up and drive the nation to this indescribable golden time. I rather suspect they'll sit on their arses and bleat.

Leave supporters are already angry at Hannan for saying that freedom of movement will continue. It's almost like they all leaped towards a utopian paradise... that was different for all of them.

This is a complete mess, and I suspect the majority will be angry at the end of it.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Leave supporters are already angry at Hannan for saying that freedom of movement will continue. It's almost like they all leaped towards a utopian paradise... that was different for all of them.

This is a complete mess, and I suspect the majority will be angry at the end of it.

Surely it was as plain as day and rather simple to understand that leaving the EU has no affect on people arriving from outside of the EU?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Surely it was as plain as day and rather simple to understand that leaving the EU has no affect on people arriving from outside of the EU?

A lot of people think we will increase our border controls. The evidence suggests we won't.

 

[DaleCooper]

Surely it was as plain as day and rather simple to understand that leaving the EU has no affect on people arriving from outside of the EU?

I think it may actually increase the numbers from outside the EU, continental Europe has been acting as a buffer between the UK and the middle east, this could now be changed to an express route to Dover.

 

[VauxhallandI]

A lot of people think we will increase our border controls. The evidence suggests we won't.

But if had wanted to do that then we could have before and anytime outside of a referendum?

Something doesn't add up? Can all these people not been able to see this? What am I missing?