EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[TheKnightWho]

But if had wanted to do that then we could have before and anytime outside of a referendum?

Something doesn't add up? Can all these people not been able to see this? What am I missing?

There were always the freedom of movement requirements of the EU, though. The point is that those look likely to stay.

 

[phoenixcronin]

How does everyone think this will impact a third runway at Heathrow. As I understand it a decision was due to be made on the 7/8th of July, but obviously that is now in limbo. If the crazy nutter Boris who is massively anti-Heathrow gets in then obviously its quite unlikely, but maybe Osbourne approves it before he leaves as an act of revenge?

I believe more than 2/3 of all MPs are pro Heathrow, so he would get support even without some of his haters

 

[VauxhallandI]

There were always the freedom of movement requirements of the EU, though. The point is that those look likely to stay.

They weren't going to seal up the doors though we're they? We're we going to train up the out of work UK fruit pickers to be professionals in a short period of time? Or was the plan to use the EU people until we trained up our folks then dump them in the channel? Doctors take 11 years to train up after all.

 

[anme]

There's nothing moronic about it at all, shame you can't see comprehend anything than your own opinion:roll:

You have posted hectares of fact-free "opinion" on this site. Please understand that not all opinions are equal.

And even more astonishingly, I still didn't see any comment from the leavers about what should happen now. You *must* have thought about this. PLEASE tell us! Do you want to remain part of the EEA? Do you want to cut all formal ties with the rest of Europe?

I will tell you again what I think should happen. We must remain part of the single market and freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital must be preserved. This means joining the EEA (the Norwegian model). As I have said before, this model is really stupid compared to EU membership as we lose most influence over the running of the single market, and we will no doubt lose the opt outs we negotiated in the past, but that's the price the leavers have imposed on us. Thanks.

Do you agree with this? If not, what is your alternative plan? To state yet again - you *must* have thought about this.

 

[Antman]

I've been watching this chat and Antman and his wee chum haven't answered the question about what the plan is once even though they've been asked approximately 20 times.

The answer is they haven't got a clue. No-one seems to have a clue unfortunately.

I want to see the Fenlands rise up and drive the nation to this indescribable golden time. I rather suspect they'll sit on their arses and bleat.

So what exactly were you expecting, a 200 page document?

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers, democracy is great until it doesn't produce the result you wanted.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd love to spend the day engaged in pointless arguments but I do have a life!

 

[backontrack]

So what exactly were you expecting, a 200 page document?

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers, democracy is great until it doesn't produce the result you wanted.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd love to spend the day engaged in pointless arguments but I do have a life!

Why do you want us to leave the EU?

 

[TheKnightWho]

So what exactly were you expecting, a 200 page document?

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers, democracy is great until it doesn't produce the result you wanted.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd love to spend the day engaged in pointless arguments but I do have a life!

I don't see anyone engaged in being a sore loser here - no-one thinks that we shouldn't do what the country has democratically decided.

We just want you to tell us what, exactly, the country has democratically decided to do.

 

[DaleCooper]

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers,

Have we lost a river as a result of the referendum? Somebody had better tell Leicester.

 

[anme]

So what exactly were you expecting, a 200 page document?

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers, democracy is great until it doesn't produce the result you wanted.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd love to spend the day engaged in pointless arguments but I do have a life!

You wanted it. You've got it. I'm sorry to use capitals but please TELL US WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN NOW. A few sentences would be fine.

 

[jon0844]

People are asking leave voters everywhere and 'wait and see, too early to tell yet' seems a common answer.

What I also see is that everyone is so happy that we've got our country back. I still don't really know what that means, as we never lost it.

Part of it is, I suspect, that many people want us to kick the foreigners out - but all of a sudden we're back to it not being quite so acceptable to say that. But it's what I think a lot of people mean deep down.

As long as we stop 'them' coming over here, it's fine. Oh, and yes, we'd still like to buy German cars and be able to go to Spain for a holiday without everything costing too much. We'd damn well better keep the agreement to axe European roaming charges too!

 

[TheKnightWho]

People are asking leave voters everywhere and 'wait and see, too early to tell yet' seems a common answer.

What I also see is that everyone is so happy that we've got our country back. I still don't really know what that means, as we never lost it.

Part of it is, I suspect, that many people want us to kick the foreigners out - but all of a sudden we're back to it not being quite so acceptable to say that. But it's what I think a lot of people mean deep down.

As long as we stop 'them' coming over here, it's fine. Oh, and yes, we'd still like to buy German cars and be able to go to Spain for a holiday without everything costing too much. We'd damn well better keep the agreement to axe European roaming charges too!

I suspect we will see a major war between Leave factions from this point forward. The elites who previously tried to court moderates with promises about the EEA and watered-down deals, whilst also allowing (and sometimes helping) the flame of racism and xenophobia to be cultivated will find they're on the opposing side to those who want to shut up shop and seriously restrict migration. These moderates, who I suspect are less committed to leaving the EU than furthering their own careers, have opened Pandora's box.

This, I fear, will not be the end of UKIP: we are already seeing Farage distance himself from the official campaign by rubbishing figures he was happy to not challenge, but he wants to present himself as the genuinely honest one who will implement the much stronger policies his party has been pushing for years.

The glimmer of hope in this, though, is that it will expose these extremists for the minority that they are.

 

[Howardh]

So what exactly were you expecting, a 200 page document?

Yes. That's what we tend to get before an election, it's called a manifesto and can be bought from most high street booksellers. Often well over 200 pages.

So, yes, I'd like to see Brexit's manifesto if it's all the same. Maybe you could find it, copy and paste? That would be most kind. Or was it just what was written on the bus?

 

[jon0844]

In my town, they've already made themselves very well known on Facebook. What surprised me is that so many of these people were telling everyone to vote Labour in the council elections, and being incredibly rude about anyone that didn't, and yet are the ones who were most vocal about getting their country back and getting rid of foreigners. How can you be left wing one second, and so right wing the next?

That made me particularly ashamed as I was hoping we had moved on from this. Years ago we had lots of BNP posters put up on subways and bus stops, and even swastikas sprayed on walls, but we were told it was just a minority (and, to be fair, it did stop when the BNP pretty much destroyed itself).

Now I don't think the problem went away at all, it just went underground. The only thing that reassures me is that these people all have horrid views, but aren't actually members of any far right party and are therefore not organised. It fills me with dread that we might actually have an election where such a party, fronted by a smiling man like Farage, gets support.

Or was it just what was written on the bus?

Yes, the bus. That was pretty much it. £350m to spend a week on ourselves. Well, the NHS.

Or not, as the case may be.

 

[Domh245]

I see that our EU commissioner, Lord Hill, has now resigned. You've got to wonder if he will be replaced, or if he will be our last EU commissioner?

 

[Harbornite]

Empty comments like this are not going to change anything:roll:

He is entitled to his opinion, as are you and everyone else. However, he is better informed than you as it is true that Brexit doesn't have any decent plans, save for a trade deal with Ghana (whoop de doo)

 

[TheKnightWho]

Definite rumblings that people are beginning to get angry at the misleading Leave campaign. Cameron should call an early election.

 

[ExRes]

Definite rumblings that people are beginning to get angry at the misleading Leave campaign. Cameron should call an early election.

To what purpose?, I'm in favour of Cameron going as quickly as possible even though he was one of those mainly responsible for the Leave result, I doubt any politician has ever run such a negative campaign of any description offering nothing to the electorate, he couldn't even get his 'renegotiations' ratified before the referendum, a sign of both his weakness and the indifference of the EU towards the UK

I assume that you wouldn't mean that an election should be called to overturn a democratically held referendum result?

 

[DaleCooper]

I assume that you wouldn't mean that an election should be called to overturn a democratically held referendum result?

It's unlikely but if a party which promised to stay in the EU as part of its election manifesto were to win then it would have at least equal legitimacy as the referendum result.

 

[TheKnightWho]

To what purpose?, I'm in favour of Cameron going as quickly as possible even though he was one of those mainly responsible for the Leave result, I doubt any politician has ever run such a negative campaign of any description offering nothing to the electorate, he couldn't even get his 'renegotiations' ratified before the referendum, a sign of both his weakness and the indifference of the EU towards the UK

I assume that you wouldn't mean that an election should be called to overturn a democratically held referendum result?

I'm not sure you need to have a goal to feel angry that you've been lied to.

And no - there has been one campaign in particular that has been more misleading: the Leave campaign. Farage and Hannan are both complicit in not speaking out about the lies about the NHS and reducing immigration, both of which were the two primary reasons people voted Brexit.

And an election would not be overturning a democratically held result, because it itself would be a democratic result! Unless you mean that proportional systems are better than FPTP, in which case why have you previously argued that FPTP is good and democratic?

 

[DelayRepay]

I assume that you wouldn't mean that an election should be called to overturn a democratically held referendum result?

I am surprised that Leave supporters are not calling for a General Election. The majority of current MPs in the main parties support remaining in the EU. Clearly that is not aligned with the view of the public and will make it difficult to have an effective exit negotiation. This situation needs to be addressed urgently.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've never seen such a bunch of soar losers, democracy is great until it doesn't produce the result you wanted. Now if you'll excuse me, I'd love to spend the day engaged in pointless arguments but I do have a life!

I am most impressed by your use of the word "soar" which is one definition used in that context in your posting above that one would normally never come across.

I am indeed aware of Barrow upon Soar and wonder if unhappy people there could be described as "soar losers"....

 

[Mvann]

Right as nobody has said what they want from this mess as you call it, I will. What I want is is a free trade area. What I want is easy movement with the proviso that at certain times we can restrict movement when it is obvious that are infrastructure can't cope. I don't want a United States of Europe. I want the EU to actually realise that what they are doing is not what a lot of people want. Voting leave was always more about sticking a rocket up the EUs backside. They haven't listened to what either us or the Europeans actually want. It's not just the fault of just one European prime minister. This is a problem with what the EU is now and where it is heading.

 

[DelayRepay]

Right as nobody has said what they want from this mess as you call it, I will. What I want is is a free trade area. What I want is easy movement with the proviso that at certain times we can restrict movement when it is obvious that are infrastructure can't cope. I don't want a United States of Europe. I want the EU to actually realise that what they are doing is not what a lot of people want. Voting leave was always more about sticking a rocket up the EUs backside. They haven't listened to what either us or the Europeans actually want. It's not just the fault of just one European prime minister. This is a problem with what the EU is now and where it is heading.

I think that highlighted sentence helps to explain why we're in the mess we are. Cameron made it clear that a leave vote would lead to invocation of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which would set in course negotiations leading to the UK ending its membership of the EU. The EU made it clear that there would be no further negotiations.

So this "rocket" seems to have gone off while it was still in our backyard, and look at the damage it's done.

Does explain why there doesn't seem to be a plan though, and why, having caused this chaos, Boris is nowhere to be seen at the moment, and at his press conference yesterday he refused to take questions.

I am really scared, not because of the fact that people voted out, that is a democracy in action. I'm scared because having voted out, nobody seems to know what the hell happens next.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think that highlighted sentence helps to explain why we're in the mess we are. Cameron made it clear that a leave vote would lead to invocation of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which would set in course negotiations leading to the UK ending its membership of the EU. The EU made it clear that there would be no further negotiations.

So this "rocket" seems to have gone off while it was still in our backyard, and look at the damage it's done.

Does explain why there doesn't seem to be a plan though, and why, having caused this chaos, Boris is nowhere to be seen at the moment, and at his press conference yesterday he refused to take questions.

I am really scared, not because of the fact that people voted out, that is a democracy in action. I'm scared because having voted out, nobody seems to know what the hell happens next.

Absolutely bang on the money. We haven't voted for what we wanted: we've voted for what we didn't want.

Yet, all the alternatives proposed have even less support.

 

[Senex]

I remain totally unclear as to process. It's become ever more clear since Thursday both that there are no clear and agreed plans on the Brexit side for what sort of leaving agreement they want the government to negotiate for and that at least two elements of their campaign (money and immigration) involved sustained lies. So sooner or later within the next few months the talking will start. Suppose at the end of it the terms that are on offer are not acceptable to a majority of the MPs in the Commons. Are they, as our elected representatives, free to choose to reject those terms, and if so, what happens then? Or are they supposed to be bound to vote in favour of the exit terms, however bad they find them, on the basis of the referendum -- which would make a nonsense of parliamentary procedure, given that legally the referendum was only advisory and cannot bind our representatives?

I am really scared, not because of the fact that people voted out, that is a democracy in action. I'm scared because having voted out, nobody seems to know what the hell happens next.

Indeed so, and not just on a single front, but UK and EU, UK and Scotland, government of the UK, etc .....

 

[DelayRepay]

I remain totally unclear as to process. It's become ever more clear since Thursday both that there are no clear and agreed plans on the Brexit side for what sort of leaving agreement they want the government to negotiate for and that at least two elements of their campaign (money and immigration) involved sustained lies. So sooner or later within the next few months the talking will start. Suppose at the end of it the terms that are on offer are not acceptable to a majority of the MPs in the Commons. Are they, as our elected representatives, free to choose to reject those terms, and if so, what happens then? Or are they supposed to be bound to vote in favour of the exit terms, however bad they find them, on the basis of the referendum -- which would make a nonsense of parliamentary procedure, given that legally the referendum was only advisory and cannot bind our representatives?

My understanding is once we give our notice to the EU, we have to negotiate terms, but if we haven't agreed terms after two years our membership will end, and our relationship with the EU will be the same as any other non-member country. I don't think we really get to accept or reject the terms, it's either take what's offered or get nothing.

If we change our minds, every member state has to agree that we can remain a member. I strongly suspect that such a decision would come with strings attached, for example joining Schengen, handing over our rebate or possibly even adopting the Euro.

 

[Mvann]

But it's still causing chaos in other countries as well as here. The EU have gone from saying no way back to no easy way back. The French and the Dutch have started making noises about wanting a referundum. If this isn't a wake up call to the EU then there won't be an EU.

 

[Abpj17]

How does everyone think this will impact a third runway at Heathrow. As I understand it a decision was due to be made on the 7/8th of July, but obviously that is now in limbo. If the crazy nutter Boris who is massively anti-Heathrow gets in then obviously its quite unlikely, but maybe Osbourne approves it before he leaves as an act of revenge?

I believe more than 2/3 of all MPs are pro Heathrow, so he would get support even without some of his haters

It increases the case even more for an additional runway at Heathrow. Possibly even tips the case away from Gatwick. (In reality, all of London's airports need more capacity - just one is never going to be enough).

Heathrow is the international hub that deals with flights to other continents more than the UK's other airports I believe. Having rejected the EU, we'll need to try to build even more link with China, India, US, Middle East etc. So more capacity at Heathrow.

What happens at other airports is a more interesting question. Much of the capacity are budget flights to EU destinations - what impact will there be on the ability to win flight routes from outside the EU...and the exchange rates and taxes etc. could all more significantly affect travel to the EU. Not being a part of the same pan-EU institutions may also significantly reduce the demand for travel from businesses and diplomats/civil service etc.

 

[Senex]

My understanding is once we give our notice to the EU, we have to negotiate terms, but if we haven't agreed terms after two years our membership will end, and our relationship with the EU will be the same as any other non-member country. I don't think we really get to accept or reject the terms, it's either take what's offered or get nothing.

If we change our minds, every member state has to agree that we can remain a member. I strongly suspect that such a decision would come with strings attached, for example joining Schengen, handing over our rebate or possibly even adopting the Euro.

Thanks for the clarification -- that's much more than I knew. So in effect if the EU side has a clear line that our negotiators feel they can't accept, all the EU has to do is sit tight and we're completely out. No free movement, no automatic access to markets, etc.

I certainly wasn't aware that if, having issued our Section 50 notice, we decide to change our minds when we see the way negotiation is going, we can't simply stop the process and keep the status quo.

If it came to an "out" and then "in again" situation, I fully believe you are correct to think we would have to join the Euro, sign up to Schengen, and meet all the other conditions we have so far kept clear of.

 

[Abpj17]

Right as nobody has said what they want from this mess as you call it, I will. What I want is is a free trade area. What I want is easy movement with the proviso that at certain times we can restrict movement when it is obvious that are infrastructure can't cope. I don't want a United States of Europe. I want the EU to actually realise that what they are doing is not what a lot of people want. Voting leave was always more about sticking a rocket up the EUs backside. They haven't listened to what either us or the Europeans actually want. It's not just the fault of just one European prime minister. This is a problem with what the EU is now and where it is heading.

We already had that....the UK were exempt from 'ever closer political union'; we aren't part of the Schengen border agreement; we aren't part of the euro, and unlike new countries never have had to agree to work towards joining it in the future.

Senex - yes; if we rejoined, there would obviously be no entitlement to the many many concessions the UK has had over the years (rebate, vetos, euro, political union). Schengen we would probably still get exemption from - it's a different arrangement and a sensible one because we're an island. Ireland isn't in Schengen either. We get to kept opt-outs that are standard in some directives and regulations along with other countries.