EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[radamfi]

The UK is doing nothing to force the EU to do anything.

So, why are we talking about a hard border? Is it nothing to do with the UK leaving the EU?

Additionally imposing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is just as unworkable as imposing one between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Therefore the only option is for the ROI, NI and GB to be in the same customs union. That means either the UK will have to stay in the single market, or Ireland will have to leave the EU. AFAIK, there is little appetite for Ireland to leave the EU, meaning that the former is the only option.

 

[HSTEd]

So, why are we talking about a hard border? Is it nothing to do with the UK leaving the EU?

Because the EU is threatening us with it unless we cave in entirely to their demands?

Therefore the only option is for the ROI, NI and GB to be in the same customs union. That means either the UK will have to stay in the single market, or Ireland will have to leave the EU.

Has the Irish public been offered the option of leaving the EU for EFTA (which is not a customs union) to preserve the CTA?
Why should the UK public be forced to obey the will of the Irish public, which they outnumber by ten to one or more?

 

[radamfi]

Why should the UK public be forced to obey the will of the Irish public, which they outnumber by ten to one or more?

Ireland didn't start this, so it is up to the UK to sort it out. Throwing the Irish to the wolves is hardly a good way to maintain good relations.

 

[najaB]

The EU is going to impose a hard border because it wants one - it is not the UK's fault.

There is and always has been a hard border at the outer boundary of the EU. The UK is taking itself outside of the outer boundary of the EU so nobody is creating anything that didn't exist before.

If a child gets angry and storms out of his parent's house, he can't really blame them for getting wet in the rain.

 

[HSTEd]

There is and always has been a hard border at the outer boundary of the EU. The UK is taking itself outside of the outer boundary of the EU so nobody is creating anything that didn't exist before.

Then why did the border posts at the Swiss border mysteriously disappear sometime after 2000?
I recall trains being boarded by armed border guards, which no longer happens?

If a child gets angry and storms out of his parent's house, he can't really blame them for getting wet in the rain.

No, but he can blame them when the parents lock him out to freeze in said rain.

Ireland didn't start this, so it is up to the UK to sort it out. Throwing the Irish to the wolves is hardly a good way to maintain good relations.

Who said anything about throwing the Irish to the wolves?
I would be perfectly open to, for example, simply paying the Irish Revenue sums equal to the costs of running the additional customs checks they would have to run at their ports of entry from the remainder of the EU.

Such a cost is likely to be negligible in economic terms compared to the costs of building and maintaining a huge fixed border installation.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Then why did the border posts at the Swiss border mysteriously disappear sometime after 2000?

Switzerland joined the Schengen Area on 12th December 2008, which is a visa-free travel area which requires no passport to cross borders. This is different to the European Union in that countries that aren't a part of it can join. Switzerland is a part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and would've had to abide by EU freedom of movement rules, though this doesn't affect passport entry since the UK still has passport checks. The difference is that in the EFTA, EEA or EU, you cannot turn down a citizen of the participating countries because of the free movement rules.

 

[HSTEd]

Switzerland joined the Schengen Area on 12th December 2008, which is a visa-free travel area which requires no passport to cross borders. This is different to the European Union in that countries that aren't a part of it can join.

Yes, but it still demonstrates that the external border of the EU is not always a hard border, which is what the earlier poster had stated.

Switzerland is a part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and would've had to abide by EU freedom of movement rules, though this doesn't affect passport entry since the UK still has passport checks.

No it doesn't.
All members of the EFTA are in the EEA, which does mandate freedom of movement, or have separate bilateral treaties to that effect.
But it is not inherent in the existence of the EFTA.

And no-one would be expecting the Irish to give up freedom of movement if they do not wish to do so.
They could quite easily maintain a separate immigration policy from the UK, as they do now.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Yes, but it still demonstrates that the external border of the EU is not always a hard border, which is what the earlier poster had stated.

No it doesn't.
All members of the EFTA are in the EEA, which does mandate freedom of movement, or have separate bilateral treaties to that effect.
But it is not inherent in the existence of the EFTA.

And no-one would be expecting the Irish to give up freedom of movement if they do not wish to do so.
They could quite easily maintain a separate immigration policy from the UK, as they do now.

Of course. I was just merely giving you an answer as to why the Swiss border disappeared.

 

[radamfi]

I would be perfectly open to, for example, simply paying the Irish Revenue sums equal to the costs of running the additional customs checks they would have to run at their ports of entry from the remainder of the EU.

Maybe the Irish don't want customs check between themselves and the rest of the EU?

 

[fowler9]

The UK will not be imposing a hard border. That will be installed by your friendly neighbourhood EU. Perhaps the question is better directed towards them?

Oh please. So the mighty UK who wants to stop freedom of EU movement is going to have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic imposed upon it by the big nasty EU. You Brexiters have really not thought this through. Its always been obvious though.

 

[radamfi]

If the UK leaves the single market, even if NI stays in, that in itself imposes a huge barrier to trade between Ireland and mainland Europe. Presumably most freight between Ireland and the continent passes through Wales and England to the Channel ports. A direct sea crossing from Ireland to France takes much longer.

 

[Howardh]

If the UK leaves the single market, even if NI stays in, that in itself imposes a huge barrier to trade between Ireland and mainland Europe. Presumably most freight between Ireland and the continent passes through Wales and England to the Channel ports. A direct sea crossing from Ireland to France takes much longer.

Unless containers are sealed/stamped, they risk inspection leaving Ireland, entering the UK, leaving the UK and entering the EU (Calais? Rotterdam??) so the direct ferry route may seem a reasonable alternative for them even if it takes longer.
But the sheer volume of cargo entering and leaving the UK for the EU every day means that any hold-ups at customs would have consequences - just like when the French go on strike, but daily!! How much of Kent is to be tarmaced over to provide lorry holding areas??

 

[furnessvale]

Oh please. So the mighty UK who wants to stop freedom of EU movement is going to have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic imposed upon it by the big nasty EU. You Brexiters have really not thought this through. Its always been obvious though.

The US- Mexico border is only hard in one direction.
The real fear of the EU is that imports from the world will enter the EU via a soft UK-Ireland border thus avoiding protectionist EU tariffs.
The UK is quite relaxed about this prospect.

 

[najaB]

The UK is quite relaxed about this prospect.

What, quite relaxed about someone else losing out on taxes? Why wouldn't we be. But if the shoe was on the other foot we would be the first to call foul. There's a reason that HM Revenue and Customs has one of (if not the) the longest history of any government department.

 

[northwichcat]

So those who voted for Brexit so we can 'take control of our borders' aren't bothered that the people they want to keep out will still be able to get in to the UK provided they travel via Ireland?

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe the Irish don't want customs check between themselves and the rest of the EU?

That is a decision for the Irish Government.

But if the EU attempts to force a customs check in Northern Ireland, and between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, having one with the rest of the EU instead is probably good economic sense [and I know that pure economics is irrelevant etc]

However it is clear that Brexit puts the Irish Republic in an interesting economic position - whilst the EU Is the larger market, the UK is still one of its largest trading partners because of its simple proximity and the open border.

So those who voted for Brexit so we can 'take control of our borders' aren't bothered that the people they want to keep out will still be able to get in to the UK provided they travel via Ireland?

You can control immigration without some sort of Berlin wall esque border with guard towers with machine guns.

They can be detected if they work illicitly using the same mechanisms used to catch visa overstayers.

 

[northwichcat]

You can control immigration without some sort of Berlin wall esque border with guard towers with machine guns.

:roll: Err yes! Only an idiot would think that's what is meant by a 'hard border.' As I said in an earlier post the EU requires passports to be scanned on entry which isn't how the 'soft border' between Ireland and the UK currently works with us both being in the EU.

Maybe you should visit Croatia (in the EU) and then go onwards to Bosnia or Montengero (both outside the EU) and back by road to see how an EU border actually works? Given Croatia, Bosnia and Montengero all used to be part of one country it could be very similar to how a border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland could work with one inside the EU and the other outside.

They can be detected if they work illicitly using the same mechanisms used to catch visa overstayers.

You haven't thought that through. With no border between the UK and Ireland they'll be no record of them ever having entered the UK, so we'll be relying on the EU spotting that someone who has permission to live in the EU has left the EU and why would the EU be bothered if they had?

 

[Howardh]

So those who voted for Brexit so we can 'take control of our borders' aren't bothered that the people they want to keep out will still be able to get in to the UK provided they travel via Ireland?

They will be hidden under the radar so won't appear in any official statistics. Also if "caught" they may well find themselves returning to Ireland in the back of a car by some back route so they still don't appear in any official statistics.
And once in Ireland they come back....
So when the Tory MP of the day announces there are 10,000 fewer immigrants than a year ago and all the Daily Mail and Express readers are overcome with joy, we can look at the figures and take them with a quarryload of rock salt.
in fact, to my knowledge, we haven't any accurate figures today to compare them with, so the government (any government) can simply make up the figures as they go along. SDo I can bet anyone any amount of money that a year after Brexit they will announce immigration has fallen by (insert your own figure) as there's not a single accurate stat now!
Me, cynical??

 

[HSTEd]

You haven't thought that through. With no border between the UK and Ireland they'll be no record of them ever having entered the UK, so we'll be relying on the EU spotting that someone who has permission to live in the EU has left the EU and why would the EU be bothered if they had?

Wait what?
Why is the EU even involved?

We catch people working illicitly all the time, and not just at their point of entry.

 

[northwichcat]

Wait what?
Why is the EU even involved?

We catch people working illicitly all the time, and not just at their point of entry.

The people are caught because they fail to stay under the radar, those who do manage to stay under the radar don't get caught. If we retain an open border between the UK and Ireland the EU will have information which will help us catch those staying under the radar, because they'll have a record of everyone who has entered Ireland from outside the EU and we won't have a record of everyone who has entered the UK from Ireland. Of course if we don't want the EU's information we could spend millions extra on the police force so they have the resource available to acquire the information for themselves.

 

[najaB]

We catch people working illicitly all the time, and not just at their point of entry.

Not nearly as many as we don't catch. I know several people who are working here illegally for various reasons.

 

[Groningen]

Boris Johnson defending bull fighting.

 

[fowler9]

JCollins is spot on. I have recently crossed from Croatia (EU) to Bosnia (Not EU) and it is a massive pain in the rear, not just because the EU are being awkward. There are all kinds if legal requirements. If you think it is just the EU being awkward then try going from Chile to Peru, Peru to Bolivia or Bolivia to Argentina. The rest of the world is used to this stuff. Some selfish gits who are used to how much freedom we had and didn't have a clue what it is like outside are going to have to get used to what it is like not being part of the biggest trading block in the world.

 

[najaB]

The rest of the world is used to this stuff. Some selfish gits who are used to how much freedom we had and didn't have a clue what it is like outside are going to have to get used to what it is like not being part of the biggest trading block in the world.

I couldn't have put it any better.

 

[radamfi]

I don't see how the UK can lecture the EU on borders, given that the UK refused to join the Schengen Area.

 

[furnessvale]

So those who voted for Brexit so we can 'take control of our borders' aren't bothered that the people they want to keep out will still be able to get in to the UK provided they travel via Ireland?

Illegal immigrants can do that at present but they seem not to.

Of course, if Ireland were to join Schengen after Brexit, that could change things. It would certainly affect the "special relationship" Ireland has always enjoyed with the UK.

 

[Jonny]

Illegal immigrants can do that at present but they seem not to.

Of course, if Ireland were to join Schengen after Brexit, that could change things. It would certainly affect the "special relationship" Ireland has always enjoyed with the UK.

I think that the Irish do take a reasonable amount of care to vet its arrivals, along with checking (often in the background) on the ferries and 'planes between Northern Ireland and the UK making it a harder target. Also, right-to-work etc. checks that are now standard throughout the UK do seem to have an effect; in fact there would be little more required after Brexit. Also, perhaps going via Ireland is too much trouble or expense.

In fact, modern IT applied to accounting, payroll, etc. alongside ANPR makes a "virtual border" between Eire and Northern Ireland a reasonable prospect. Who needs checkpoints?

 

[northwichcat]

Illegal immigrants can do that at present but they seem not to.

I'm talking about EU nationals. They don't do it currently because they can legally come to the UK through freedom of movement. Yet if Brexit shuts the front door for them and leaves the back door open, it means we've spent millions of pounds to 'take control of our borders' and then not actually done it as EU nationals will still have freedom of movement to Ireland and then there's no border to the UK!

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh please. So the mighty UK who wants to stop freedom of EU movement is going to have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic imposed upon it by the big nasty EU. You Brexiters have really not thought this through. Its always been obvious though.

Given that Northern Ireland doesn’t exist in the forefront of the consciousness of the English or Welsh public I suppose they can hardly be blamed. It’s another example of why political Unionism is a non-starter - the wish to remain part of a Union which doesn’t give a single toss about you; bonkers.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm talking about EU nationals. They don't do it currently because they can legally come to the UK through freedom of movement. Yet if Brexit shuts the front door for them and leaves the back door open, it means we've spent millions of pounds to 'take control of our borders' and then not actually done it as EU nationals will still have freedom of movement to Ireland and then there's no border to the UK!

Unlike the present situation, such EU entrants would become illegal immigrants and as such, only the black economy would be open to them.

Someone from Syria or Somalia for example, may consider the UK black economy attractive, an EU national much less so.