EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Or, alternatively, moving the border to the Irish Sea.

Than what?
Would the citizens of Northern Ireland still be in the EU, keep their freedom of movement; and if so, how would the EU be able to differentiate between those from Great Britain and those from the North (our passports states we are from "GB and NI")?
Or, if not, then you are proposing the same country has two seperate customs and import regimes, so our goods have to be examined between the two? And we need a passport to travel within our own country?
And if you are still in favour, how do we get it past the DUP?
Apart from all that.....

 

[najaB]

Apart from all that....

Oh, I never said it was a good idea. But then, neither is Brexit but that didn't stop people voting for it.

 

[Howardh]

Oh, I never said it was a good idea. But then, neither is Brexit but that didn't stop people voting for it.

Think we can safely say an Irish Sea border will never happen.
We've nicked it to put it on the Pennines!

 

[furnessvale]

So you're happy for the UK to become a tax-haven for the rich, and as someone who is already "wealthy" JRM stands to gain?
But a deregulated economy in which workere rights and conditions could be diminished?

One does not automatically lead to another and the seriously rich tend to spend lots of money which is no bad thing.

Ireland and Luxembourg already have predator corporation tax rates, why not the UK?

 

[Howardh]

One does not automatically lead to another and the seriously rich tend to spend lots of money which is no bad thing.

Ireland and Luxembourg already have predator corporation tax rates, why not the UK?

In the UK??
Regarding Ireland and Luxembourg on their tax rates, I suppose that's a good example of being independent and not being in the EU.


Oh, wait....

 

[furnessvale]

In the UK??
Regarding Ireland and Luxembourg on their tax rates, I suppose that's a good example of being independent and not being in the EU.


Oh, wait....

YES, in the UK, Harrods as one small example. One slight disadvantage is that they tend to overheat the housing market, but the end of the market they inhabit won't effect housing for the ordinary worker.

Yes, reducing corporation tax is ONE thing we can, and have done, from within the EU. Still, that will come to a shuddering halt when brother Corbyn gets in. If you think Brexit will be bad for UK plc, wait until Corbyn and McDonnell get in power!

 

[Howardh]

YES, in the UK, Harrods as one small example. One slight disadvantage is that they tend to overheat the housing market, but the end of the market they inhabit won't effect housing for the ordinary worker.

Yes, reducing corporation tax is ONE thing we can, and have done, from within the EU. Still, that will come to a shuddering halt when brother Corbyn gets in. If you think Brexit will be bad for UK plc, wait until Corbyn and McDonnell get in power!

Well perhaps these rich entities would like to come and spend their dosh in Bolton.
We have Whitakers/Beales.
Nope...gone.
BHS then.
Nope...gone.
OK, Debenhams.
Nope...on the way out.
Well, some Pick and Mix from Woolworths, then.
Think you know where this is going.
And leaving the EU will HELP to recover our town centres? Brexit won't, a Tory government won't, a Labour government probably won't, I don't think even Thunderbirds can save our towns. But as long as Rees-Mogg and his mates spend, spend and more spend in Harrods then that's fine, I suppose.

 

[najaB]

And leaving the EU will HELP to recover our town centres? Brexit won't, a Tory government won't, a Labour government probably won't, I don't think even Thunderbirds can save our towns.

Brexit won't help, that's for sure. What we need is a readjustment in the economy - services are good, but we also need high-value manufacturing to replace the textiles and heavy industry that we lost in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Ianno87]

Well perhaps these rich entities would like to come and spend their dosh in Bolton.
We have Whitakers/Beales.
Nope...gone.
BHS then.
Nope...gone.
OK, Debenhams.
Nope...on the way out.
Well, some Pick and Mix from Woolworths, then.
Think you know where this is going.
And leaving the EU will HELP to recover our town centres? Brexit won't, a Tory government won't, a Labour government probably won't, I don't think even Thunderbirds can save our towns. But as long as Rees-Mogg and his mates spend, spend and more spend in Harrods then that's fine, I suppose.

Couldn't have put it better myself (being from Bolton myself - a town centre that somehow manages to get more depressing and boarded up each time I go back from being a competitive town centre in the 1990s).

At least there's a Wilko's these days. That's about it.

The actual problem that caused alot of people to vote for Brexit is the extreme imbalance of the UK economy from 'the places the globalisation has left behind', not actually anything to do with the EU (who, if anything, provide funding for projects intended to add benefit to such areas). The EU was just an easy, faceless scapegoat.

 

[NSEFAN]

YES, in the UK, Harrods as one small example. One slight disadvantage is that they tend to overheat the housing market, but the end of the market they inhabit won't effect housing for the ordinary worker.

Yes, reducing corporation tax is ONE thing we can, and have done, from within the EU. Still, that will come to a shuddering halt when brother Corbyn gets in. If you think Brexit will be bad for UK plc, wait until Corbyn and McDonnell get in power!

I would have thought that it's the middle classes who ultimately contribute the most? Their sheer number and lack of access to complicated tax avoidance systems means that they're earning lots of taxable income and also spending it in the UK, keeping the economy going. On the other hand, the most wealthy are much more adept at legally hoarding money. Yes they may buy fancy groceries from premium outlets, but this is a token amount compared to the amount taken off shore.

To play devil's advocate, if Comrade Corbyn does scare away the most wealthy, then those middle class people will still be here and still able to work. There will still be demand for consumer goods and services which they provide, so someone else who's not so greedy will take the place of their former wealthy masters. That's how market forces work, only they're being steered by taxation to try and reduce the effect of greedy human nature. No, scaring off the wealthy elite is not a bad thing; if Brexit is about kicking out the scroungers and getting rid of the parasites, then why not shed some of our own in the process? Or are the British public incapable of managing themselves?

 

[Howardh]

Couldn't have put it better myself (being from Bolton myself - a town centre that somehow manages to get more depressing and boarded up each time I go back from being a competitive town centre in the 1990s).

At least there's a Wilko's these days. That's about it.

The actual problem that caused alot of people to vote for Brexit is the extreme imbalance of the UK economy from 'the places the globalisation has left behind', not actually anything to do with the EU (who, if anything, provide funding for projects intended to add benefit to such areas). The EU was just an easy, faceless scapegoat.

I went into Bolton town centre last night (I lost a bet...) gawd what a depressing place it is. 80's, in my heyday, a vibrant, packed-out throbbing town centre, too many bars to mention, every one packed by 9pm on a Saturday. Now, a handful in and around Deansgate, virtually empty at 10. Admittedly the two bars in the vaults were busy; and the new real-ale bar on Nelson Square was OK....but tumbleweed everywhere else.
Ended up in the Sweet Green with a dozen others. Saturday. Dozen.

 

[Ianno87]

I went into Bolton town centre last night (I lost a bet...) gawd what a depressing place it is. 80's, in my heyday, a vibrant, packed-out throbbing town centre, too many bars to mention, every one packed by 9pm on a Saturday. Now, a handful in and around Deansgate, virtually empty at 10. Admittedly the two bars in the vaults were busy; and the new real-ale bar on Nelson Square was OK....but tumbleweed everywhere else.
Ended up in the Sweet Green with a dozen others. Saturday. Dozen.

Even in mid-2000s (my 'heyday'), Bolton was a decent night out, but started getting a bit rough not long after*

*I was doing some temp bar work in 2008 the night a guy got stabbed outside a pub nearby.

 

[Howardh]

Even in mid-2000s (my 'heyday'), Bolton was a decent night out, but started getting a bit rough not long after*

*I was doing some temp bar work in 2008 the night a guy got stabbed outside a pub nearby.

Lucklily we still have the Man and Scythe, and the Alma (in the own's most deserted area) where you can have a drink unbovvered by the "I want a fight" brigade. The old Dog and Partridge was a huge loss, nothing to do with the economy - everything to do with a land-rover deciding to prop up the bar one evening.

 

[mmh]

That's a shame to hear, I've not been to Bolton in many years but as a student in Manchester I used to occaisionally go there for a night out, it made a nice change.

Sadly the decline of high streets and pubs is a phenomenon across the whole country though, and not something even I would blame on the EU. (Although to add a lone Brexiteer voice to the conversation it's not something staying in the EU is going to help either!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or, alternatively, moving the border to the Irish Sea.

I do wonder if (the Troubles aside) the general "Remain" view in NI has shifted views enough that were there a referendum for it to secede from the UK and join the republic of Ireland that it would succeed?

 

[trash80]

Interesting to read that the 1922 Committee have only just half the letters they need to spark a leadership challenge for May so far (may change of course next week). From the impression in the media you'd think the entire party was queuing up to stab her in the back. Not quite the night of the long knives yet, more the day of plastic spoons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well perhaps these rich entities would like to come and spend their dosh in Bolton.
We have Whitakers/Beales.
Nope...gone.
BHS then.
Nope...gone.
OK, Debenhams.
Nope...on the way out.
Well, some Pick and Mix from Woolworths, then.
Think you know where this is going.
And leaving the EU will HELP to recover our town centres? Brexit won't, a Tory government won't, a Labour government probably won't, I don't think even Thunderbirds can save our towns. But as long as Rees-Mogg and his mates spend, spend and more spend in Harrods then that's fine, I suppose.

I've replied to this properly in a new thread, as it really doesn't have anything to do with Brexit.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-decline-of-town-centres.173770/

 

[najaB]

I do wonder if (the Troubles aside) the general "Remain" view in NI has shifted views enough that were there a referendum for it to secede from the UK and join the republic of Ireland that it would succeed?

Hmm, that can labelled Lumbricina, should I open it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm, that can labelled Lumbricina, should I open it?

A can of worms it may be, but it is a solution to the issue.

 

[Muttley]

Interesting to read that the 1922 Committee have only just half the letters they need to spark a leadership challenge for May so far (may change of course next week). From the impression in the media you'd think the entire party was queuing up to stab her in the back. Not quite the night of the long knives yet, more the day of plastic spoons.

She'll survive till Brexit is (un)delivered.
The backbenchers don't want a leadership vote yet as whoever delivers Brexit is toast. That'd mean 2 new leaders in a year, or 4 in 5yrs. The Tories don't operate like that.

Posters on here have to realise this is politics. At no point does the good of the nation come into it.

 

[najaB]

Posters on here have to realise this is politics. At no point does the good of the nation come into it.

Even worse, party politics.

 

[trash80]

I'm not disagreeing with you i was commenting on the difference between media impression and reality. She might survive though normal party logic seems to have flown out the window these days, mind you as a non-Corbynista Labour member i would think that

 

[Howardh]

I've replied to this properly in a new thread, as it really doesn't have anything to do with Brexit.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-decline-of-town-centres.173770/

Well it is partially on topic as a number of run-down areas have benefitted from EU grants. Now those grants may (or may not) continue to come from our government after Brexit, I have a feeling they won't, especially if it's a Tory government.
However on saying that, if money is available (our own or the EU's) and there is a Labour council in charge, if they spend the money it will look like an area has been improved under the Tories - so there's a conflict of interest. I have no idea whether areas can apply directly to the EU for funding...and cut out the local councils. Anyone??

 

[bnm]

Interesting to read that the 1922 Committee have only just half the letters they need to spark a leadership challenge for May so far (may change of course next week). From the impression in the media you'd think the entire party was queuing up to stab her in the back. Not quite the night of the long knives yet, more the day of plastic spoons.

Yes, it does appear that J R-M was somewhat premature.

Perhaps that explains why he had six children.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the UK??
Regarding Ireland and Luxembourg on their tax rates, I suppose that's a good example of being independent and not being in the EU.


Oh, wait....

The EU sued Ireland, Luxembourg and a few other countries for their tax regime which they say amounts to illegal state aid under EU rules. Ireland have appealed and it will be heard soon.

You absolutely do not, in any way, have complete sovereignty over your tax situation as an EU member.

 

[nidave]

The EU sued Ireland, Luxembourg and a few other countries for their tax regime which they say amounts to illegal state aid under EU rules. Ireland have appealed and it will be heard soon.

You absolutely do not, in any way, have complete sovereignty over your tax situation as an EU member.

To be exact they sued Ireland for giving Apple prefrential tax treatment and not offering the same rates to others. (An agreement Ireland signed up to and passed in its parlmenent) Buy lets not let any facts get in the way

 

[najaB]

You absolutely do not, in any way, have complete sovereignty over your tax situation as an EU member.

And that's a problem why, exactly?

 

[AlterEgo]

And that's a problem why, exactly?

It is up to all of us to decide whether ceding sovereignty to a supranational body is in our interests - I make no conclusion about whether or not it is a good thing, because I am not a tax expert or an economist (as are very few or none of us here, I assume?).

But I would very much like to see Remainers stop asserting that membership of the EU doesn't involve ceding sovereignty over key affairs, like setting your own tax regime. This, to me, is intellectual dishonesty.

 

[nidave]

But the goverments agree to the rules and to abide by them - if they didnt agree then it would go back to the EU for a change in the rules.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be exact they sued Ireland for giving Apple prefrential tax treatment and not offering the same rates to others. (An agreement Ireland signed up to and passed in its parlmenent) Buy lets not let any facts get in the way

So the facts are Ireland decided to give Apple a tax break (not the only company they decided to treat in this way), the EU said the regime amounted to illegal state aid, the EU sued Ireland and made them collect taxes from Apple they didn't want to collect. Ireland is holding the tax in escrow until the appeal is finalised.

In what way do you think my original post wasn't factual? What was incorrect about it? Do you not agree that Ireland's membership of the EU means they cannot set their own tax regime (no matter how bonkers), and therefore Ireland doesn't even have the ability to unilaterally set its own taxes? How is this not ceding sovereignty? A key marker of sovereignty of a country is the ability to set and collect taxes!