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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Senex

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The next election will clearly be an one-issue election. When was the last? I remember - just - Heath's is it the government or the miners? Think it was the miners anyway...3 day week, power cuts? Think Heath lost, 1974??

Would the "Winter of Discontent" (79) be an one-issue election?

How would a one-issue (i.e. EU) election fit in with a position where both major parties are divided over the issue, many sitting MPs seem to be out of tune on that issue with their constituents, and there is no clear forward policy either party could offer for people to vote for?
 
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Harbornite

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Gibraltar is in talks with Scotland about a plan to keep parts of the UK in the EU, BBC Newsnight has learned.
Fabian Picardo, the territory's chief minister, told the BBC he was speaking to Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, about various options.
One possibility under discussion is for Gibraltar and Scotland, which both voted to remain in the EU, to maintain the UK's membership of the bloc.
Ms Sturgeon confirmed to the BBC that talks are under way with Gibraltar.
Northern Ireland could also potentially be included in the discussions.
"I can imagine a situation where some parts of what is today the member state United Kingdom are stripped out and others remain," Mr Picardo told Newsnight.
"That means that we don't have to apply again for access, we simply remain with the access we have today, and those parts that leave are then given a different sort of access, which is negotiated but not necessarily under Article 50," he said, referring to a provision in the Lisbon Treaty that sets out how a member state can voluntarily leave the Union.
Past precedents
There is a precedent for such a proposal. Denmark joined what was then the EEC in 1973, the same year as the UK and Ireland.
Greenland gained autonomy from Denmark in 1979 and seceded from the EU in 1985, following a referendum three years earlier.
Nicola Sturgeon has previously said that a second referendum on independence for Scotland is "highly likely", following last Thursday's Leave victory.

Nicola Sturgeon says Scotland could now hold a second referendum on independence
More than 95% of Gibraltarians voted for Remain on Thursday. The vast majority also want to remain in the UK.
The territory overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to share sovereignty with Spain in a referendum in 2002. Mr Picardo insisted Gibraltar's status as a British Overseas Territory should not mean giving up its membership of the EU.
"The position of the people of Gibraltar is that we've expressed, perhaps even more clearly than the Scots, what our view is going forward, what should happen - that we should continue to have access to the single market to the European Union. My obligation is to protect and promote the interests of Gibraltar and to find such partners who may be willing to do the same thing within the United Kingdom."

Following the referendum last week, Spain again raised the issue of joint sovereignty of Gibraltar.
"The Spanish flag on the Rock is much closer than before," Spain's acting Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said on Friday.
But speaking in his first broadcast interview since the referendum on Thursday, Fabian Picardo said any claims by Spain to the territory would be dismissed out of hand.
"Anybody who thinks that this is a time to propose joint sovereignty or that they're going to get any millimetre of advantage in respect of the sovereignty of Gibraltar is completely wrong. They shouldn't waste their breath, they shouldn't waste their time, they shouldn't waste the time of the European people as we try to navigate this issue that has been presented to us on Friday morning."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639770
 

TheNewNo2

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I believe the correct response to the referendum is thus:

We're all ****ed. We're all ****ing ****ed.



I'd say I feel sorry for Cameron, but his cowardice is what brought us to this. He was so worried about Tories defecting to UKIP that he has allowed a plebiscite to almost certainly lead to the dissolution of the Union.

This is ****ing ****ed.

The job of elected officials, in my mind, is to make the unpopular decisions. People will rarely vote for taxes, but we all know that taxes are necessary to fund public services. We need the elected officials to implement the taxes - do the unpopular thing - because it's what's best for the population as a whole, whether they know it or not. Similarly, the EU is very good for the population as a whole, even if it is (not without reason) pretty damn unpopular. Government should have been there to say "no, you cannot have a knife to stab yourself". Be guided by the will of the people but never, ever, be dictated to by the will of the people.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I believe the correct response to the referendum is thus:

We're all ****ed. We're all ****ing ****ed.



I'd say I feel sorry for Cameron, but his cowardice is what brought us to this. He was so worried about Tories defecting to UKIP that he has allowed a plebiscite to almost certainly lead to the dissolution of the Union.

This is ****ing ****ed.

The job of elected officials, in my mind, is to make the unpopular decisions. People will rarely vote for taxes, but we all know that taxes are necessary to fund public services. We need the elected officials to implement the taxes - do the unpopular thing - because it's what's best for the population as a whole, whether they know it or not. Similarly, the EU is very good for the population as a whole, even if it is (not without reason) pretty damn unpopular. Government should have been there to say "no, you cannot have a knife to stab yourself". Be guided by the will of the people but never, ever, be dictated to by the will of the people.

I may not entirely agree but we have been badly let down by our politicians
 

Busaholic

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I believe the correct response to the referendum is thus:

We're all ****ed. We're all ****ing ****ed.



I'd say I feel sorry for Cameron, but his cowardice is what brought us to this. He was so worried about Tories defecting to UKIP that he has allowed a plebiscite to almost certainly lead to the dissolution of the Union.

This is ****ing ****ed.

The job of elected officials, in my mind, is to make the unpopular decisions. People will rarely vote for taxes, but we all know that taxes are necessary to fund public services. We need the elected officials to implement the taxes - do the unpopular thing - because it's what's best for the population as a whole, whether they know it or not. Similarly, the EU is very good for the population as a whole, even if it is (not without reason) pretty damn unpopular. Government should have been there to say "no, you cannot have a knife to stab yourself". Be guided by the will of the people but never, ever, be dictated to by the will of the people.

Imagine if the proposition had been 'do you wish to pay Council Tax or not?' then, surprise! surprise! the Nots had won but no-one had thought about what would replace it as a source of revenue. Ludicrous, eh? but no more ludicrous than the mess of potage left by this. David Lammy MP is absolutely right: if enough MPs get a backbone, the process of withdrawal need never begin. It's not too late! The lunatics must NOT be given leave to take over the asylum.
 

anme

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How would a one-issue (i.e. EU) election fit in with a position where both major parties are divided over the issue, many sitting MPs seem to be out of tune on that issue with their constituents, and there is no clear forward policy either party could offer for people to vote for?

There is one clear forward looking policy - EEA membership.
Is there any other? (I'm not counting abandoning the result of the referendum)
 

phoenixcronin

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Imagine if the proposition had been 'do you wish to pay Council Tax or not?' then, surprise! surprise! the Nots had won but no-one had thought about what would replace it as a source of revenue. Ludicrous, eh? but no more ludicrous than the mess of potage left by this. David Lammy MP is absolutely right: if enough MPs get a backbone, the process of withdrawal need never begin. It's not too late! The lunatics must NOT be given leave to take over the asylum.

Indeed, one of the few times I find myself agreeing with David Lammy. I believe Ken Clarke made a similar point as well.

However, I seem to recall Junker said immediately after the results that the "deal" Cameron got "ceases to exist" so if we stop the process of leaving we would not get the small/significant (delete as you wish) concessions which would have come into place otherwise.
 

Domh245

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Is there any other? (I'm not counting abandoning the result of the referendum)

This is how I see it:

Leave EU: **** off half the country. Wrecks economy
Join EEA: **** off entire country*
Stay in EU: **** off half the country.

I wonder which one is the best result?

* On basis of denying leave voters most of the thing that they voted against (ie fees, regulation, freedom of movement) whilst ****ing off remain voters (as you're paying more to have less say in the regulations you follow)
 

Rich McLean

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There is one clear forward looking policy - EEA membership.
Is there any other? (I'm not counting abandoning the result of the referendum)

EEA is what I think will happen with Freedom of movement allowed. However EU directives can still be imposed on us where we will have no say, as currently happens in Norway. We may be able to take back certain powers however, and restrict benefits on EU migrants, but the red tape will still be there.

It all depends on how hard the EU will be to bargain with

Even if EEA is a temporary measure until we agree trade deals elsewhere, or the EU eventually breaks up as a whole
 

anme

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EEA is what I think will happen with Freedom of movement allowed. However EU directives can still be imposed on us where we will have no say, as currently happens in Norway. We may be able to take back certain powers however, and restrict benefits on EU migrants, but the red tape will still be there.

It all depends on how hard the EU will be to bargain with

Even if EEA is a temporary measure until we agree trade deals elsewhere, or the EU eventually breaks up as a whole

Could you explain how EEA membership could practically be a temporary measure?

I can only think like this:
- We join the EEA.
- The EU has trade deals with 52 blocs or countries. We quietly start negotiating with them.
- Let's say, by some fantasy, they are prepared to talk to us about a trade deal to be introduced at some unspecified point in the future, and an even further fantasy, that agreement is reached.
- But wait! Our biggest export market is the European single market. Will they agree to negotiate with us? See the current situation.
- Maybe we have another referendum.
- See events of this week.

Not a very good idea.
 

RichmondCommu

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All the major credit rating agencies have now down rated their credit rating for the UK as expected. Petrol and diesel prices to be up by three pence by the weekend. Who could have been daft enough to vote for this?
 
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phoenixcronin

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All the major credit rating agencies have now down rated their credit rating for the UK as expected. Petrol and diesel prices to be up by three pence by the weekend. Who could have been daft enough to vote for this?

People who are easily won over by phrases such as "take back control" and "independence day" and whatnot
 

Harbornite

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All the major credit rating agencies have now down rated their credit rating for the UK as expected. Petrol and diesel prices to be up by three pence by the weekend. Who could have been daft enough to vote for this?

People who are easily won over by phrases such as "take back control" and "independence day" and whatnot

Very much so. Soundbites and lies over facts.
 

ainsworth74

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If anyone wishes to discuss the shocking/hilarious (delete as appropriate) England exit from the Euros please use the existing thread which can be found here. Many thanks.
 

Domh245

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Which appears to include 17 million UK citizens. Depressing.

It is worth pointing out at this point, that not all 17 million people voted out because "Hurr Durr muh independence". There were (as pointed out in the pre referendum thread) valid left wing arguments for voting to leave, and equally there were arguments that didn't entirely revolve around soundbites and popular ideas like spending more on the NHS.
 

WelshBluebird

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However the first party to announce that as their position will then face a cry from UKIP who will point out that EEA membership does not end freedom of movement

And the reply to that should simply be that the referendum question was not "should the United Kingdom end freedom of movement of people with other EU countries", it was simply about if we should leave the EU or not. If we do leave, then that is the referendum result fulfilled. Regardless of what happens next.
 

Gutfright

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Yep. Leave won because the people of Britain are uniquely stupid, knuckle-dragging morons.

Nothing at all to do with the fact that the remain camp had no answer to the low-paid people who had constantly seen their wages being undercut by mass immigration. Anyone who raises any concerns about immigration is literally Hitler.

It's not remain's fault for being arrogant and out of touch. It's those ghastly British people who are to blame.

Just keep telling yourselves that.
 

muz379

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This is how I see it:

Leave EU: **** off half the country. Wrecks economy
Join EEA: **** off entire country*
Stay in EU: **** off half the country.

I wonder which one is the best result?

* On basis of denying leave voters most of the thing that they voted against (ie fees, regulation, freedom of movement) whilst ****ing off remain voters (as you're paying more to have less say in the regulations you follow)

Id actually argue that your top line for Leave EU : Should also be ***** off entire country

Remain voters wont be happy because we listened to the experts and knew the economy would be completely *******

Leave voters wont be happy because they would have to start listening to experts to steer the economy out of the situation it would be in


And the reply to that should simply be that the referendum question was not "should the United Kingdom end freedom of movement of people with other EU countries", it was simply about if we should leave the EU or not. If we do leave, then that is the referendum result fulfilled. Regardless of what happens next.
A response I would personally endorse and agree with .

However if a significant majority of the 17.5 million leave voters voted to end freedom of movement then that would not be the end of this
 
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RichmondCommu

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Yep. Leave won because the people of Britain are uniquely stupid, knuckle-dragging morons.

Finally we agree on something! I mean who would think that an extra three pence on a litre of fuel would be a good idea?

And who would believe than an extra £350 million per week would be made available to the NHS because good old Nigel said it would?
 

Rich McLean

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Could you explain how EEA membership could practically be a temporary measure?

I can only think like this:
- We join the EEA.
- The EU has trade deals with 52 blocs or countries. We quietly start negotiating with them.
- Let's say, by some fantasy, they are prepared to talk to us about a trade deal to be introduced at some unspecified point in the future, and an even further fantasy, that agreement is reached.
- But wait! Our biggest export market is the European single market. Will they agree to negotiate with us? See the current situation.
- Maybe we have another referendum.
- See events of this week.

Not a very good idea.

You have a point.

If we join the EEA, then from what you are saying, that's that and we will be unable to have any say in any future trade deals and subject to all the laws and directives that go with it. If we don't, then it will be by WTO rules, as the EU will not make a special arrangement just for us.

Staying in the EU is highly unlikely.

Whoever the new cabinet are, they either accept EEA rules, and risk getting voted out at the next GE after a public outcry

Or they revert to WTO rules, a long term recession, and risk getting voted out at the next GE, due to steep rises in the cost of living and mass unemployment.

If the elected leader doesn't want that blood on his hands, then a snap General Election is likely to be called, which will further delay the process.

We have two years for this to happen.

Personally Article 50 should be invoked as soon as the new PM is in place, and a GE called for May 2018, after negotiations will give us a few tough options, and different parties to adopt these options as part of their Manifesto's and let the public vote for the party with the best way forward.

That way if one of the parties policies is to accept EEA with all the rules that come with it, and they get voted into office in May 2018, then it should calm things down.

If they don't get voted in, and the opposition gets voted in who proposes not to adopt EEA due to Freedon of Movement being in the offer and EU Regs, again this would calm things down.

However a Hung Parliament wouldn't solve the problem.
 
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ExRes

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28% of what?

Are you being serious?, the 28% who couldn't be bothered to vote, the in excess of 10 million eligible voters who sat on their fingers and whistled while those that had made their decision, rightly or wrongly in your opinion, went out and used their democratic vote
 

RichmondCommu

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Are you being serious?, the 28% who couldn't be bothered to vote, the in excess of 10 million eligible voters who sat on their fingers and whistled while those that had made their decision, rightly or wrongly in your opinion, went out and used their democratic vote

So why didn't you say that in the first place?

Please refer to post 1376 for a possible explanation of the above.
 
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ExRes

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I think many of them couldn't make up their minds because they thought both sides were making stuff up.

And in all honesty they weren't too far from the truth.

Then, in reality, all those that voted Remain or Leave were the thicko's because they all believed made up stuff
 
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