EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[JamesT]

We do indeed - which is why we should have seen how it worked for a few years before embarking on a referendum.

In truth though, the opt-out probably should have been considered from the start as we've already had forty years of "ever closer union".

I don't believe we have such an opt-out currently. That was part of the package that Cameron negotiated before the Referendum, but the package was conditional on a Remain vote. As the result was Leave, the whole package was never implemented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_renegotiation_of_European_Union_membership,_2015–16
I assume this means that should we revoke Article 50, we'd have to negotiate again to get such an opt-out.

 

[HH]

"Ever closer union" is something I would vote for. Why is working more closely with other, like-minded countries seen as a bad thing? Why would anyone want to not work together?

 

[fowler9]

"Ever closer union" is something I would vote for. Why is working more closely with other, like-minded countries seen as a bad thing? Why would anyone want to not work together?

You've done it now. We'll soon have a list from the Brexiteers of all the ridiculous laws implemented by the EU that we have to put up with.

 

[EM2]

I don't believe we have such an opt-out currently.

You are correct, my posting should have included the word 'negotiated'.

 

[Muttley]

"Ever closer union" is something I would vote for. Why is working more closely with other, like-minded countries seen as a bad thing? Why would anyone want to not work together?

Why do you put so much trust in words, and yet discount deeds ?

We had a close union with like minded countries, and when we needed them they stood shoulder to shoulder with us, twice.

And in '82 them that you want to be out new best mates, they were actively selling weapons to use against us.

Actions speak louder than mere words. So I'll take the Aussies, Kiwis, and Canadians over the French any day of the week.

 

[Ianno87]

Actions speak louder than mere words. So I'll take the Aussies, Kiwis, and Canadians over the French any day of the week.

You mean the French who were allied with us in two world wars? (As were the other countries you mention)

 

[EM2]

And in '82 them that you want to be out new best mates, they were actively selling weapons to use against us.

The Defence Secretary at the time, Sir John Nott, says otherwise:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html

FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.

In his memoirs he reveals that while President Reagan was pressurising Lady Thatcher to accept a negotiated settlement France helped Britain to win the conflict.

Although Lady Thatcher clashed with President Mitterrand over the future direction of Europe, he immediately came to her aid after Argentine forces invaded the Falklands in April 1982.

"In so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies," Sir John says. As soon as the conflict began, France made available to Britain Super-Etendard and Mirage aircraft - which it had supplied to Argentina - so Harrier pilots could train against them.

The French gave Britain information on the Exocet - which sank the Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor - showing how to tamper with it.

"A remarkable worldwide operation then ensued to prevent further Exocets being bought by Argentina," Sir John says.

"I authorised our agents to pose as bona fide purchasers of equipment on the international market, ensuring that we outbid the Argentinians, and other agents identified Exocet missiles in markets and rendered them inoperable."

He contrasts the French attitude with America's attempts to find a face-saving deal for President Galtieri, the Argentine dictator."For all Margaret Thatcher's friendship with Ronald Reagan, he remained a West Coast American looking south to Latin America and west to the Pacific. Sometimes I wondered if he even knew or cared where Europe was."

Caspar Weinberger, the US defence secretary, supported Britain but the State Department was "dominated by Latinos".

"There was incredible pressure from the White House and the State Department to negotiate. It was hugely damaging," Sir John told The Telegraph. "They couldn't understand that to us any negotiated settlement would have seemed like a defeat."

Asked if he found it irritating that the Americans expected Britain's total support in the war against terrorism, Sir John said: "I am against the Americans smashing things up with bombing raids, then letting us be the auxiliary policemen to pick up the pieces."

Sir John says he held the Foreign Office "in deep contempt" for the caution it displayed when Lady Thatcher proposed sending the Task Force to the Falklands.

The French had already sold Argentina a few Exocets and Super Etendards, but no more followed during the conflict.
Now, it is said that there was a French technical team from Dassault in Argentina, supposedly aiding their forces, but if true that was in direct contravention of the French government's position.

 

[fowler9]

Why do you put so much trust in words, and yet discount deeds ?

We had a close union with like minded countries, and when we needed them they stood shoulder to shoulder with us, twice.

And in '82 them that you want to be out new best mates, they were actively selling weapons to use against us.

Actions speak louder than mere words. So I'll take the Aussies, Kiwis, and Canadians over the French any day of the week.

The Argentine navy had two British built type 42's aswell. Let's not get picky.

 

[trash80]

The Argentine navy had two British built type 42's aswell. Let's not get picky.

Their aircraft carrier was also British built, the Belgrano and it's escorts were American. Still these are mere facts of course.

 

[Muttley]

The Argentine navy had two British built type 42's aswell. Let's not get picky.

Their aircraft carrier was also British built, the Belgrano and it's escorts were American. Still these are mere facts of course.

Sold during the conflict ???

 

[trash80]

So what, Exocets (which we also bought of course) were not sold during the conflict either.

 

[EM2]

Sold during the conflict ???

What weapons were sold to Argentina during the conflict? Evidence, please.

 

[AM9]

Sold during the conflict ???

The Argentinian carrier: ARA Veinticinco de Mayo was commissioned in inthe Royal Navy in 1944, decommissioned in 1947, sold to The Netherlands in 1948, who decommissioned it in 1968 and sold it to Argentina that year. So how do you feel that the UK selling it to a third-party friendly nation in 1948 undermined the UK forces in the Falklands war?
Or maybe it was the Type 42 destroyers of which the Argentinian Navy had two fitted with Seadart surface to air missiles. All UK supplied before the war. As it happened, the Argetinians knowing the capability of the missiles, elected to fly low to avoid the UK missiles, which caused most of their bombs to be released unprimed. And of course, it would be foolish to sell missiles of a higher (or even the same) specification to any nation that wasn't completely trusted, which we didn't.
It is naïve to assume that all of these things weren't thought through even before export licences were applied for. So there's another busted argument. If you want to make these aspersions with any credibility, at least check your facts first.

 

[Jonny]

So those who want to see closer ties with our Commonwealth cousins are somehow racist? Despite the obvious links between us (family, history, language, monarch, business, system of Government). Yet those who want ever-closer ties with the (predominantly white Christian) EU are not?

In fact having our own immigration policy allows the UK to decide the level and type of immigration based on the skills we need (from all cultures) - rather than the current bias in favour of European culture.

Exactly - three countries to which I would consider moving and would not need to learn a new language.

 

[Jonny]

For another thing, the Welsh Assembly referendum passed with a lower margin and a lower total electorate and everyone accepted it. Why should Britain leaving the EU be any different?

Edit: That is the 1997 Referendum to approve the Welsh Assembly.

 

[Mag_seven]

For another thing, the Welsh Assembly referendum passed with a lower margin and a lower total electorate and everyone accepted it. Why should Britain leaving the EU be any different?

Because the establishment of the Welsh Assembly was a good idea in that it gave more democracy to Wales. Leaving the biggest single market on the planet is not a good idea.

 

[bnm]

Exactly - three countries to which I would consider moving and would not need to learn a new language.

Only because British imperialist colonials all but erased indigenous culture and languages, and decimated the aboriginal populations. What would be called genocide today.

Meanwhile, back in the here and now, Theresa May is finally acknowledging that no Brexit is increasingly more likely that no deal. Excellent news. It really is refreshing to see Parliament not being in thrall to the Executive (PM & cabinet).

As for those saying that what Parliament and the Speaker are doing is unconstitutional, I'd say what constitution? Our unwritten one has evolved, and continues to evolve, by convention, precedent, international agreements, unwritten understandings, judicial rulings and legislation. Its flexibility is its strength.

Changing the way things are done when one branch (in this case, the Executive) can't or won't command Parliamentary consensus is entirely justified. Dominic Grieve and Mr Speaker Bercow (who know a thing or two about law and the workings of Parliament) were entirely right to do what they did. Dominic Grieve set a precedent by tabling a motion to control the Government's use of the Business of the House, and Parliament as a whole has allowed them to do so by backing that motion. Had Theresa May and her Government not changed the Order of Business late last year and unnecessarily delayed the Brexit meaningful vote, then Dominic Grieve's challenge to convention would not have been needed last week. The PM and her dwindling band of supportive colleagues have only themselves to blame for the constitutional crisis.

Roll on Tuesday night.

 

[Jonny]

Because the establishment of the Welsh Assembly was a good idea in that it gave more democracy to Wales. Leaving the biggest single market on the planet is not a good idea.

Leaving the EU is a good idea though. It, or more precisely its "free movement of people", is responsible for the gross overcrowding in urban areas - such that I am living with my parents well into my 30s. To include that in the concept of a single market is borderline Orwellian. It is a distortion of the 'market' concept. In fact, property prices and rents are much higher than they would be if there were fewer renters and buyers.

"Ever closer union" is something I would vote for. Why is working more closely with other, like-minded countries seen as a bad thing? Why would anyone want to not work together?

If it means people outside the British Isles having a say in how I live my life then it's not such a good idea.

 

[bnm]

If it means people outside the British Isles having a say in how I live my life then it's not such a good idea.

British Isles? Your happy for the Republic of Ireland to have a say in how you run your life then?

 

[Jonny]

Then there is this gem of an article on the stabbing at Manchester Victoria on New Year's Eve. Have you noticed that the news media has gone suspiciously quiet on the matter?

IMO it is more likely due to a screw-up than a conspiracy, but part of a wider pattern of screw ups by EU26 governments that shows why we would be better off out. The screw up being a systematic failure to properly vet immigrants and asylum seekers, so much that the British government looks like a bastion of good practise (when it is competent) in such matters.

(Emphasis added in body of article)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hree-people-Manchesters-Victoria-Station.html
'Long live the caliphate': Police raid suburban home as it emerges 'terrorist knifeman shouted ISIS slogan as he stabbed three in New Year rampage' at Manchester station before hero cops tackled him

• Man wielding kitchen knife and shouting 'Allahu Akbar' attacks people at station
• A man and woman in their 50s and a police officer were injured around 9pm
• Attacker was pepper-sprayed and Tasered, then pinned down and arrested
• Anti-terror officers are investigating and police are treating incident as terrorism
• They have raided the suspect's home and two victims remain 'seriously injured'
• Did you see the attack or the aftermath? Email *************************

A knife attack which saw two rail passengers and a policeman stabbed by a man shouting 'Allahu Akbar' is being treated as terrorism, Manchester police have said.

Anti-terror officers raided the 25-year-old suspect's home in the Cheetham Hill area of the city today as they confirmed two of the victims will be in hospital 'for some time'.

Neighbours of the property raided say they believe it is home to a Somali couple and four of their five children, who all moved to the UK from the Netherlands around 12 years ago.

Footage of the aftermath of the 'frenzied' attack at Manchester's Victoria Station last night shows a man being pinned down by five police officers, with blood stains on the pavement.

Another video shows the suspect shouting 'Allahu Akbar', meaning 'God is most great' in Arabic, as he was put in the back of a police van. He was also heard screaming: 'Long live the Caliphate', a reference to the enclave carved out by terror group ISIS.

A witness said he also shouted: 'As long as you keep bombing other countries, this sort of s*** is going to keep happening.'

 

[Jonny]

British Isles? Your happy for the Republic of Ireland to have a say in how you run your life then?

Mostly England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as appropriate. However there is interplay with the Republic of Ireland. As long as the Common Travel Area stands, British nationals have a right of access that does not depend on the EU and it is an English-speaking country.

 

[trash80]

If it means people outside the British Isles having a say in how I live my life then it's not such a good idea.

Bad news for you, this is going to happen anyway whether we are in the EU or not.

 

[EM2]

For another thing, the Welsh Assembly referendum passed with a lower margin and a lower total electorate and everyone accepted it. Why should Britain leaving the EU be any different?

Edit: That is the 1997 Referendum to approve the Welsh Assembly.

Interesting that you mention that. Over on Twitter, Steve Peers (Professor of EU, Human Rights & World Trade Law, at the University of Essex), has an excellent thread showing that the Conservatives pledged to not only pledged a second referendum on the repeal the Assembly, but were still opposing its creation after the initial referendum result.
I can't post the individual tweets as I'm posting from my phone but the thread starts here:
https://mobile.twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1084607886095982592

 

[AM9]

Leaving the EU is a good idea though.

In your opinion and in June 2016, marginally more than half of the electorate that voted the same way.

It, or more precisely its "free movement of people", is responsible for the gross overcrowding in urban areas - such that I am living with my parents well into my 30s.

The rules under which immigration from the EU operates give a right to free movement of workers. If successive UK governments chose to just open the borders to fellow EU citizens with no work reasons to justify that entry, the problem has been created by the UK itself.
The main reason that people like you are living with your parents is because the Thatcher government (probably before you were born) allowed the purchase of the social housing stock at knockdown prices and (crucially) prevented local authorities from using the proceeds to re-invest in replacements for that lost housing. Much of that housing stock sold at giveaway prices is now in the hands of landlords charging rents that many (maybe including you) cannot afford. Hence the preponderance of adult children unable to support a home themselves. Many of the EU entrants are transitory, doing temporary work, here as a part of leisure travel or find that the UK is just not for them. They are not the major reason for the shortage of available housing stock as most of them use rented proerty.
Here is a chart showing how little the EU has impacted the mix of the population:

Note how non-EU migration has always filled in the gaps and is heading northwards now. So maybe, non-EU buyers will prevent you getting your own home for years to come.

To include that in the concept of a single market is borderline Orwellian. It is a distortion of the 'market' concept. In fact, property prices and rents are much higher than they would be if there were fewer renters and buyers.

If it means people outside the British Isles having a say in how I live my life then it's not such a good idea.

That's been true since the Marshall Plan was launched in 1948. So the 'special relationship' that we have with the US is mainly one-way traffic. We don't have a vote in it, - not even a 1 in 28 proportion of influence. Instead, we have been a part of an economic partnership that in many ways is bigger and more influential than the fifty states of the US. Get over it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Largest part of immigration is the bit we have full control of but have never done anything about.... Obviously.

 

[HH]

Leaving the EU is a good idea though. It, or more precisely its "free movement of people", is responsible for the gross overcrowding in urban areas - such that I am living with my parents well into my 30s.

Not this hokum again. I have to point out, once again, that non-EU immigration was greater than our net immigration last year. It's not the EU, it's our Government, that could control immigration and chooses not to. Nothing will change post-Brexit.

As to the housing problem, that's partly down to not building enough houses and partly down to multiple ownership (including by foreign nationals); both are down to our government and nothing to do with the EU.

But it's a lot easier to blame Johnny Foreigner, eh?

 

[Muttley]

So what, Exocets (which we also bought of course) were not sold during the conflict either.

Yes they were. The transportation was tampered with ensuring they arrived months late.
Why were MI6[sic] involved if the French govt said non, what sanctions were put on Dassault for ignoring their govt ?
i 'm not sure we did have the Exocet beforehand, our lot never liked a subsonic missile till the Falklands proved it worked.

 

[trash80]

Type 22 frigate Batch 1 and 2, fitted with 4 Exocet, Batch 1 commissioned before the Falklands War

You are welcome.

 

[Groningen]

Well free movement of people will not apply to the UK in the EU than.

 

[Muttley]

Type 22 frigate Batch 1 and 2, fitted with 4 Exocet, Batch 1 commissioned before the Falklands War

You are welcome.

It's better to wait with the smugness till after you are thanked.
Other than that, thank you, everyday something new.