EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes I agree. The deals would be a negotiation and, as with any negotiation, it requires compromise and both sides doesn't get everything they want. The point being that the UK can conduct its side of the negotiations in the interests of the U.K. alone, while the EU has to satify all of its members first. It means it takes much longer and can't include things that might conflict with one member's interests. In short the UK can be more nimble alone.

Ultimately with the EU, you are correct that the EU has to balance the needs of its various members. That's counterbalanced by that the EU is bigger and has more negotiating power. Very roughly speaking, we end up as something like 1/6 of a voice in an organisation that's 6 times bigger. It's not obvious in that situation which arrangement gives us more say, but most international diplomats seem to think that the UK ends up more influential in the EU.

Having said all that, I do think there is a bigger issue of the good of humankind as a whole, and that's not always best served by each individual country going 'Me! Me! Me! Me!' The great advantage of the EU to my mind is the way that it provides a framework for a group of countries to work together for the mutual good of Europe - and at the same time the EU does try to play a good citizen - by for example giving favourable trade deals to many poorer countries and taking a strong stand on things like climate change.

You also need to consider that there are approximately 200 countries in the world. If every country took the approach you're suggesting of negotiating it's own deals, that means about 200 countries each dealing with 200 other countries... Around 40000 separate bilateral deals on trade etc. I think it should be obvious that that kind of arrangement would be too complex to be tenable... which again speaks to the advantage of having larger blocs like the EU.

 

[HH]

Conservative Dame Cheryl Gillan says she voted leave, but the majority in her constituency voted remain. She voted to leave because it is "quite obvious to me that the EU is going in the wrong direction for this country". "I want a country that is led by Queen and country, not by people from abroad," she says...

Foolish voters is all I can say, voting for someone that can make such a fatuous remark - "I want a country that is led by Queen and country...". Just wow. If these people weren't deciding the fate of our nation, it would be funny.

 

[Muttley]

Foolish voters is all I can say,

I see you've learnt nothing since the referendum.

 

[bnm]

Dame Cheryl Gillan says..."I want a country that is led by Queen..."

I'd vote for that. I'm certain Brian May and Roger Taylor could do a better job than the majority in the Westminster House of Fools.

 

[HH]

I see you've learnt nothing since the referendum.

You're almost correct. I already knew we had venal politicians and an uninformed electorate; I just hadn't realised the lemming-like determination of so many to throw themselves blindly off an economic cliff (and unfortunately drag the rest of us with them).

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit I do enjoy the narrative that Remainers have sabotaged Brexit and, perhaps, they have but I don't recall Leavers lining up around the block to take over the Premiership from David Cameron to ensure that Brexit was delivered and that Eurosceptic Tory MPs were in charge of Cabinet. If they believed in it so wholeheartedly surely they should have jumped at the chance! Funny that they didn't. Almost like its easier and more beneficial to them to be able to sling mud from the sidelines...

 

[trash80]

Is today decision day then or will they find some way to kick the can (we must be on the umpteenth can by now) further down the road?

 

[Groningen]

In our dutch newspaper NRC they made a scheme about the Brexit. I made the picture not too large hopefully.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I must admit I do enjoy the narrative that Remainers have sabotaged Brexit and, perhaps, they have but I don't recall Leavers lining up around the block to take over the Premiership from David Cameron to ensure that Brexit was delivered and that Eurosceptic Tory MPs were in charge of Cabinet. If they believed in it so wholeheartedly surely they should have jumped at the chance! Funny that they didn't. Almost like its easier and more beneficial to them to be able to sling mud from the sidelines...

A point I keep repeating to people who say remainers in government are sabotaging it....

 

[JamesT]

I must admit I do enjoy the narrative that Remainers have sabotaged Brexit and, perhaps, they have but I don't recall Leavers lining up around the block to take over the Premiership from David Cameron to ensure that Brexit was delivered and that Eurosceptic Tory MPs were in charge of Cabinet. If they believed in it so wholeheartedly surely they should have jumped at the chance! Funny that they didn't. Almost like its easier and more beneficial to them to be able to sling mud from the sidelines...

Er, did you miss the Conservative leadership election? Where Michael Gove, Liam Fox, and Andrea Leadsom all stood? Leadsom pulled out after getting to the final two, so we’ll never know if the party members (rather than the MPs) would have chosen a Leaver over a Remainer.

 

[Cowley]

Is today decision day then or will they find some way to kick the can (we must be on the umpteenth can by now) further down the road?

Yep. It's all going to be sorted today.
Everyone's going to pull together for the good of the country. The bill will be passed, the way forward will be clear, there'll be scenes of rejoicing akin to VE Day, the House of Commons will break into a spontaneous version of "We Are The World", and we'll be able to lock this thread forever.

Last one out switch the lights off.
It's time to hit the pub.

 

[nlogax]

It's time to hit the pub.

Amen to that.

 

[trash80]

Yep. It's all going to be sorted today.
Everyone's going to pull together for the good of the country. The bill will be passed, the way forward will be clear, there'll be scenes of rejoicing akin to VE Day, the House of Commons will break into a spontaneous version of "We Are The World", and we'll be able to lock this thread forever.

Last one out switch the lights off.
It's time to hit the pub.

Well we can hope but we all know in our hearts this nonsense will be going on FOREVER

 

[AlterEgo]

In our dutch newspaper NRC they made a scheme about the Brexit. I made the picture not too large hopefully.

View attachment 58013

What does it say in English?

 

[Howardh]

What does it say in English?

It says the English are barmpots!

 

[Groningen]

There are so many options!

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone think May can win the "meaningful" vote this evening? If she fails is she finished?

 

[AlterEgo]

May cannot win the vote this evening and it's anyone's guess as to what might happen next. I'm cracking open a cold beer and some popcorn to watch it.

 

[DarloRich]

May cannot win the vote this evening and it's anyone's guess as to what might happen next. I'm cracking open a cold beer and some popcorn to watch it.

It is going to be chaos whatever happens!

 

[nlogax]

May cannot win the vote this evening and it's anyone's guess as to what might happen next. I'm cracking open a cold beer and some popcorn to watch it.

I will actually be at the pub. It seems like the best way.

 

[Howardh]

I will actually be at the pub. It seems like the best way.

Me too. Dunno whether to put it all on my iphone or just stick the pods in and listen to some tunes.
Which ever way the vote goes we're stuffed, either a deal no-one wants or yet more can-kicking - and the obvious solution, a general election, solves nothing....
I reckon she will fail tonight, and go back to Brussels and come back with the words re-arranged and that will get through.
So Brexit results in something than, what, 95% of the country don't want?
Still, we can't have another vote so that's all right then. Let's just hope the aftermath is Norway +++.
Jeez, is that how far the country's come? We want to be...Norway??

 

[Fran Davies]

If May thinks she can get away with this pending situation, then she will kill the tory party. I'm no lover of Corbin but I would rather see him in power than staying with the EU. At least we can vote him out. We will have no say on who runs the EU

I'm sorry but thats not true. Each country votes for its MEPs, who are like MPs here. Each country has a turn at being President. We do not have a say in who the civil servants are, but do we get to choose the head of the Bank of England, or who leads on writing up new laws. The EU is far more democratic than the UK, which is why one tiny region could vote down TTIP. We dont have a say in what MEPs other countries vote for but neither do they have a say in ours.

 

[Fran Davies]

do you really think the EU will impose Visa restriction on UK citizens going to EU countries?

We WILL now have to ask permission to go to there, which is very different to having the RIGHT to go there. Our stays will be time limited to 90 days in every 180. We will not be able to settle, buy property, start businesses or retire there unless we are rich.
People dont seem to appreciate the difference between having the RIGHT to do something and being ALLOWED to do something!!!!!!
I
Losing Freedom of Movement is the biggest tragedy and con in my lifetime. We are all fools to allow it!
Anyone who thinks immigration will reduce is deluded.
EU migration might reduce but it will be replaced by migration from RoW. Which is fine by me but I dont think its what the Brexits wanted!!!!

 

[Fran Davies]

Are we interested in free movement for UK citizens. They are a very small minority of our population . Anyone out there got any stats please

We are all UK citizens.
We are ALL losing our Freedom of Movement AND our workers rights. Easy for those of us in secure jobs with sick pay to countenance but for many its a disaster. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity pay!!!!!

 

[Fran Davies]

do you really think the EU will impose Visa restriction on UK citizens going to EU countries?

Of course they wil. We will be a third country!
UK passport has just been downgraded in terms of its Global Passport Power from 1st in world to 6th. Wether its blue or not!!!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Er, did you miss the Conservative leadership election? Where Michael Gove, Liam Fox, and Andrea Leadsom all stood? Leadsom pulled out after getting to the final two, so we’ll never know if the party members (rather than the MPs) would have chosen a Leaver over a Remainer.

Sure I remember it. I also remember the lead Leaver Boris bottling it and another key Leaver, Leadsom, withdrawing before it could go to a vote. Again, if they were so keen on ensuring that Brexit was delivered why did they withdraw (or not bother to stand in the first place)? Particularly when one of the other candidates was a Remainer! Surely they should have wanted to make sure that a Leaver became PM to ensure that Brexit was delivered properly!

Or maybe they realised that its best to be on the outside of the tent so they can sling mud and bemoan how it's all a Remainer conspiracy and if only we had Leavers in charge...

 

[Esker-pades]

Does anyone think May can win the "meaningful" vote this evening? If she fails is she finished?

No and no. Most of the 117 Cons MPs who voted against her in the vote of confidence will vote against her deal. The DUP will vote against her deal. Virtually all the other parties will vote against the deal.

But, she won't be finished. She can't really be forced out because there can't be another vote of no-confidence from the Conservatives until December 2019. And, there is no single member of the Conservatives who actually has the backing of the majority of the party. Any remainer will be voted out, but any leaver will be blocked too. The soft candidates who don't have a stronge position will not please anyone either (see Theresa May). If Corbyn tables a motion of no-confidence, the Conservatives won't literally vote against themselves. Thus, it will most likely fail. She will be able to stay until we are all sucked into the void.

 

[trash80]

I wonder if she'll resign this evening, wouldn't blame her!

 

[DarloRich]

If Corbyn tables a motion of no-confidence, the Conservatives won't literally vote against themselves. Thus, it will most likely fail. She will be able to stay until we are all sucked into the void.

I tend to agree. Corbyn is more deluded than i thought if he thinks he can force and then win and election then go to the EU and get a better deal!

I wonder if she'll resign this evening, wouldn't blame her!

almost any option is possible!

 

[nlogax]

Corbyn is more deluded than i thought if he thinks he can force and then win and election then go to the EU and get a better deal!

Corbyn just wants to be in government whatever the cost, whatever the facts of the negotiation position the UK holds. Since the last election he's been giving the impression of someone that feels entitled to power, regardless of the fact that Labour didn't actually win. Total shambles of a politician.