EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Darandio]

The MPs do not generally personally benefit from expenses - it's simply them being reimbursed for money they have to spend while doing their jobs.

Well, at least not since a lot of them were found out.

 

[404250]

The MPs do not generally personally benefit from expenses - it's simply them being reimbursed for money they have to spend while doing their jobs.

Expenses were being abused on a massive scale. Less now, but it still goes on.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Expenses were being abused on a massive scale. Less now, but it still goes on.

Yes expenses were abused in the past, but that was nearly 10 years ago, and the system has been massively tightened up since then. Do you have any evidence that abuse still goes on (other than isolated cases)?

 

[404250]

Isolated cases are proof. They're the ones who were caught and were punished so made the news. Most minor abuse of the system will get a slap on the wrist and you or I will never know about it.

 

[fowler9]

I don't care any more. I am drinking lager and watching Deadpool 2 again. Tomorrow I'm getting either a Lancashire or Cheshire Northern Rover and am probably going to have more beer. The whole Brexit thing is a total joke. Let's just cancel the whole thing until it looks less like an East Enders marital story line. We are a global joke. Anyone who thinks we are going to come out of this well is nuts.

 

[nidave]

Theresa May hopes to bring her Brexit deal back to parliament again next week after it was rejected for a third time by MPs

May hopes to hold fourth vote on Brexit deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

So 4 times to see if she gets it through. Wonder which mp will change thier minds this time. Again we the people. Most impacted by all this have no say.

 

[404250]

I don't care any more. I am drinking lager and watching Deadpool 2 again. Tomorrow I'm getting either a Lancashire or Cheshire Northern Rover and am probably going to have more beer. The whole Brexit thing is a total joke. Let's just cancel the whole thing until it looks less like an East Enders marital story line. We are a global joke. Anyone who thinks we are going to come out of this well is nuts.

I don't care anymore either. I do find the whole thing entertaining though. Don't really mind if our government is a laughing stock amongst foreigners. Don't have a lot of national pride anymore and don't follow the sports teams with the passion I used to.

 

[Dave1987]

People are actually burning EU flags in Westminster whilst smiling! Actually burning flags of our biggest trading partner in the heart of our democracy. What has come of this country. Hate is rife. Have people simply forgotten what happened between 1914-1945 in Europe?

 

[ainsworth74]

Have people simply forgotten what happened between 1914-1945 in Europe?

Considering I keep hearing a lot of people wittering on about the "Blitz Spirit" seeing us through (you know when 40,000 civilians were killed, another 40,000 wounded and tens of thousands of homes destroyed) I'm reasonable certainly they have.

 

[Quakkerillo]

One thing I still have a lot of trouble understanding in the handling of Brexit from the British government is their approach towards the changed reality. We all have heard of the farce that happened under Grayling with the extra ferries, but what other real preparations have happened? I've heard from various countries on the continent that they hired dozens to hundreds of extra customs staff, veterinarians, etc. etc. for all the necessary extra border checks, whether it's for a no-deal brexit, or a brexit with a deal where the rules and regulations for a lot of things still would change.
All I've heard is that the UK plan was to just accept the goods, animals, people coming into the UK from the EU on an as-is basis, basically saying: "Well, the things will have changed, but our approach won't.", basically working on the basis that they'll accept the EU rules and regulations without really verifying anything. Meanwhile the remaining EU countries would check all goods, people, and animals coming in either as if it were from an unknown 3rd country, or with the extra checks that are needed for the deal regulations.
There are some fields in which contingency plans were made to prevent stoppages, such as with Eurostar. But for the whole rest, it has sounded to me as the UK government was only working to get a deal, and then to get that deal through parliament, instead of preparing - in any way possible - for the potential effects of whatever deal or no deal would become the ultimate reality.

Is it just me who feels this way, am I wrong, and did the UK have much more continuation preparations for whatever scenario would become reality, or is this actually something that the UK government hasn't really been working on?

 

[Busaholic]

One thing I still have a lot of trouble understanding in the handling of Brexit from the British government is their approach towards the changed reality. We all have heard of the farce that happened under Grayling with the extra ferries, but what other real preparations have happened? I've heard from various countries on the continent that they hired dozens to hundreds of extra customs staff, veterinarians, etc. etc. for all the necessary extra border checks, whether it's for a no-deal brexit, or a brexit with a deal where the rules and regulations for a lot of things still would change.
All I've heard is that the UK plan was to just accept the goods, animals, people coming into the UK from the EU on an as-is basis, basically saying: "Well, the things will have changed, but our approach won't.", basically working on the basis that they'll accept the EU rules and regulations without really verifying anything. Meanwhile the remaining EU countries would check all goods, people, and animals coming in either as if it were from an unknown 3rd country, or with the extra checks that are needed for the deal regulations.
There are some fields in which contingency plans were made to prevent stoppages, such as with Eurostar. But for the whole rest, it has sounded to me as the UK government was only working to get a deal, and then to get that deal through parliament, instead of preparing - in any way possible - for the potential effects of whatever deal or no deal would become the ultimate reality.

Is it just me who feels this way, am I wrong, and did the UK have much more continuation preparations for whatever scenario would become reality, or is this actually something that the UK government hasn't really been working on?

If it's any consolation, it's by no means only you who feels this way. It's always hard to provide evidence of things NOT happening, but without evidence of any activity it's logical to assume they're not! On S.W. Regional TV news tonight, though, they did show an almost empty Brittany Ferries vessel docking in Plymouth with the explanation that it was one of the extra sailings contracted by that genius Grayling, probably virtually the only known example of any forward planning.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Amusing that Brexit didn't happen tonight purely because Brexit was voted against by the very people who wanted Brexit.

 

[bramling]

I don't care any more. I am drinking lager and watching Deadpool 2 again. Tomorrow I'm getting either a Lancashire or Cheshire Northern Rover and am probably going to have more beer. The whole Brexit thing is a total joke. Let's just cancel the whole thing until it looks less like an East Enders marital story line. We are a global joke. Anyone who thinks we are going to come out of this well is nuts.

Have to say I identify with quite a bit of the above.

Just as this moment I’m sort of past caring, my first holiday is approaching as planned, and as usual the north-west U.K. weather is looking dodgy, so nothing really changed.

I do think it’s our political system that has caused a lot of this current problem, partly the traditional party system simply hasn’t coped with an issue which doesn’t align to party lines, especially when combined (coincidentally) with a minority government and a geriatric opposition leader for whom any throw of the dice is worth a punt on getting the once-in-a-lifetime chance to implement his ideological dreams.

Whatever happens next, I think a general election would be a disaster, the result would be completely haywire because of all the various factors which would affect the result. I think any referendum would likely produce a similar result, the more obstruction is seen from parliament (perceived or real) the more chance there is of heels being dug in.

I’m surprised the EU council meeting is so far away. I still think EU patience could run out and we get given an ultimatum amounting to throwing Britain out unless there’s something serious and real on the table. I certainly wouldn’t be writing off the prospect of no deal at this stage - indeed it’s notable that there’s at least one paper now pushing for it.

The EU might not really have wanted Britain to leave, but it’s contributions can be managed without, the procrastination must now be acting as a bit of an obstruction to other aspects of “the project”, and realistically what’s the value in keeping a member who has always been reluctant and a bit of a pain in the proverbial backside, and for whom a large segment of the population actively want out, and even many of those who want remain are only lukewarm at best and don’t really subscribe to many of the political visions of the EU. Remember the EU has had over two years to come to terms with Britain leaving.

 

[Howardh]

Have to say I identify with quite a bit of the above.

Just as this moment I’m sort of past caring, my first holiday is approaching as planned, and as usual the north-west U.K. weather is looking dodgy, so nothing really changed.

I do think it’s our political system that has caused a lot of this current problem, partly the traditional party system simply hasn’t coped with an issue which doesn’t align to party lines, especially when combined (coincidentally) with a minority government and a geriatric opposition leader for whom any throw of the dice is worth a punt on getting the once-in-a-lifetime chance to implement his ideological dreams.

Whatever happens next, I think a general election would be a disaster, the result would be completely haywire because of all the various factors which would affect the result. I think any referendum would likely produce a similar result, the more obstruction is seen from parliament (perceived or real) the more chance there is of heels being dug in.

I’m surprised the EU council meeting is so far away. I still think EU patience could run out and we get given an ultimatum amounting to throwing Britain out unless there’s something serious and real on the table. I certainly wouldn’t be writing off the prospect of no deal at this stage - indeed it’s notable that there’s at least one paper now pushing for it.

The EU might not really have wanted Britain to leave, but it’s contributions can be managed without, the procrastination must now be acting as a bit of an obstruction to other aspects of “the project”, and realistically what’s the value in keeping a member who has always been reluctant and a bit of a pain in the proverbial backside, and for whom a large segment of the population actively want out, and even many of those who want remain are only lukewarm at best and don’t really subscribe to many of the political visions of the EU. Remember the EU has had over two years to come to terms with Britain leaving.

How's about we leave but keep the customs union and single market for 5 years, and at that point have a guaranteed referendum on how it's going, if ok we can vote to keep it going, or go to WTO or back to the EU?

 

[bramling]

How's about we leave but keep the customs union and single market for 5 years, and at that point have a guaranteed referendum on how it's going, if ok we can vote to keep it going, or go to WTO or back to the EU?

The difficulty is that, unless the EU change their tune quite drastically, we have to accept many things in return - which somewhat defeats the purpose of leaving.

I suspect a general election may be coming, May’s “gone as far as we can go” (I forget the exact wording) might well be a hint. Could be completely wrong though!

Must admit I’m tired of hearing Corbyn banging on like a stuck record with his “make way for someone who can” mantra, as well as the sound of hysterical angry SNP. Two vested agendas...

On a related note, personally I’d like to see the back of Bercow too. I don’t find the way he conducts himself portrays our parliament in a particularly positive light.

 

[dosxuk]

One thing I still have a lot of trouble understanding in the handling of Brexit from the British government is their approach towards the changed reality. We all have heard of the farce that happened under Grayling with the extra ferries, but what other real preparations have happened? I've heard from various countries on the continent that they hired dozens to hundreds of extra customs staff, veterinarians, etc. etc. for all the necessary extra border checks, whether it's for a no-deal brexit, or a brexit with a deal where the rules and regulations for a lot of things still would change.
All I've heard is that the UK plan was to just accept the goods, animals, people coming into the UK from the EU on an as-is basis, basically saying: "Well, the things will have changed, but our approach won't.", basically working on the basis that they'll accept the EU rules and regulations without really verifying anything. Meanwhile the remaining EU countries would check all goods, people, and animals coming in either as if it were from an unknown 3rd country, or with the extra checks that are needed for the deal regulations.
There are some fields in which contingency plans were made to prevent stoppages, such as with Eurostar. But for the whole rest, it has sounded to me as the UK government was only working to get a deal, and then to get that deal through parliament, instead of preparing - in any way possible - for the potential effects of whatever deal or no deal would become the ultimate reality.

Is it just me who feels this way, am I wrong, and did the UK have much more continuation preparations for whatever scenario would become reality, or is this actually something that the UK government hasn't really been working on?

A lot of the preparations have been hidden away because of the negative publicity if the public find out what's being planned. Because the government painted themselves into this situation of Brexit has to be a good thing, all the preparations for it not being good have to be kept secret.

Personally, I don't know why they worry, as the brexiteers all know to label any negative stories as project fear. The clearest example was the leaked plans from Kent county council, with their concerns over gridlocked roads causing schools to close, ambulances to be delayed and supermarket deliveries to be limited. Of course the brexiteers just said it was all nonsense and not to be believed.

 

[Quakkerillo]

A lot of the preparations have been hidden away because of the negative publicity if the public find out what's being planned. Because the government painted themselves into this situation of Brexit has to be a good thing, all the preparations for it not being good have to be kept secret.

Personally, I don't know why they worry, as the brexiteers all know to label any negative stories as project fear. The clearest example was the leaked plans from Kent county council, with their concerns over gridlocked roads causing schools to close, ambulances to be delayed and supermarket deliveries to be limited. Of course the brexiteers just said it was all nonsense and not to be believed.

But whatever Brexit version it was going to be (No Deal, May's deal), there'd be a change in customs process. That's just a given. So to act as if they'd not need to prepare for that in the slightest is just ignorant. Even if there's a very smooth trade regiment in place, every slight delay will be causing large knock-on queues, so with the system already having issues to cope whenever a train or boat is delayed, you'd expect them to proudly show that they're ready in the harbour for May's deal (which would also come in handy in case of a no-deal).
Personally I'd not see that as negative publicity at all, but that the government is taking everything serious and works to make sure that any issues that may arise will be dealt with swiftly and accordingly. Not showing any preparations therefor just looks ... hopeless?

 

[dosxuk]

Personally I'd not see that as negative publicity at all, but that the government is taking everything serious and works to make sure that any issues that may arise will be dealt with swiftly and accordingly. Not showing any preparations therefor just looks ... hopeless?

But your forgetting this is being done in a world where the agreement will be the easiest deal in history, German car manufacturers will be the main negotiators for the EU and we can go to a meeting with a written aim of having cake and eating it as a realistic target. Those are the lines the brexiteers (and the DEXEU) want people to hear, not "it'll take an extra couple of hours to clear customs at Dover, and the M20 will become a permanent let park". The public might start questioning whether it's all worth it if the roads are blocked with stationary lorries and Theresa can't allow people to question The Deal.

Basically, it's just as much of a mess as everything else Brexit has touched. Common sense and logic flies out of the window to appease a small majority of hardliners.

 

[Senex]

May hopes to hold fourth vote on Brexit deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

So 4 times to see if she gets it through. Wonder which mp will change thier minds this time. Again we the people. Most impacted by all this have no say.

Is there nothing that can stop the farce of this ghastly woman not negotiating with anyone to try and find agreement but just bringing the same thing back time and time again till time runs out? Was ever the need for a modern written constitution specifying (amongst other things) the PM's powers very precisely so clearly demonstrated?

 

[Senex]

I do think it’s our political system that has caused a lot of this current problem, partly the traditional party system simply hasn’t coped with an issue which doesn’t align to party lines, especially when combined (coincidentally) with a minority government and a geriatric opposition leader for whom any throw of the dice is worth a punt on getting the once-in-a-lifetime chance to implement his ideological dreams.

Whatever happens next, I think a general election would be a disaster, the result would be completely haywire because of all the various factors which would affect the result. I think any referendum would likely produce a similar result, the more obstruction is seen from parliament (perceived or real) the more chance there is of heels being dug in.

One wouldn't normally want to cite the Daily Mail here, and as an arch-remainer I certainly wouldn't, but this morning there's a very interesting prediction by that distinguished student of elections John Curtice in which he predicts that in an election both major parties would actually lose some seats, leaving neither in any position to form a stable government. See:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eneral-election-leave-Parliament-divided.html

 

[gysev]

As this is still a railway forum: Eurostar International has cancelled all its trainpaths in Belgium from april 1 (not a joke !). But don't worry: they were requested again by Eurostar France. At least this operator is preparing for the worst.

 

[ComUtoR]

https://news.sky.com/story/remain-mp-dominic-grieve-suffers-no-confidence-vote-11678841

The chairman of the Beaconsfield Constituency Conservative Association, Jackson Ng, said the no confidence motion was passed at the association's annual general meeting on Friday evening.

He tweeted: "Our members had a robust discussion with our MP, Dominic Grieve QC on Brexit before voting on a motion of confidence in him as our MP, which, I can confirm with a heavy heart that he failed to retain.

My assumption is that he didn't vote in line with what his constituents requested.

Former Tory MP Anna Soubry, who was also at the forefront of the Remain wing of the Conservative Party until she defected to join the Independent Group, branded the vote "disgraceful".

She tweeted: "More evidence that the uncompromising dogmatic right is running the @Conservatives #DominicGrieve is one of the finest, most courageous Parliamentarians ever - who has always put his country first & championed all his constituents."

No doubt there will be more on this as the day develops.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've become increasingly convinced in recent weeks that Brexit is just one big vanity project. The ease with which Brexit supporters, especially those MPs can flip between backing the deal or not because someone might take their toys away is very revealing. I honestly think Brexit needs to be put on ice until a mature & sensible debate can be made by both sides.

 

[EM2]

My assumption is that he didn't vote in line with what his constituents requested.

His constituency voted narrowly to Remain.

 

[ComUtoR]

His constituency voted narrowly to Remain.

I can't find the results for his constituency. Do you have a link handy please ? I've tried checking the Electoral Commission but I'm not finding anything for Beaconsfield :/

 

[EM2]

I can't find the results for his constituency. Do you have a link handy please ? I've tried checking the Electoral Commission but I'm not finding anything for Beaconsfield :/

That's because voting was done on local authority boundaries. Thankfully, some nice people crunched the numbers to work it out by constituency. https://app.polimapper.co.uk/?dataSetKey=bc97e5c1c63d4eb4954038ea0461832a#con_over=Beaconsfield

 

[EM2]

By the way, that deselection campaign was led by Jon Conway, who not only stood against Grieve as a UKIP candidate in GE 2017, was a UKIP local council candidate and local branch chairman of UKIP, but also stood for the UKIP National Executive Council in 2016...and *now* he's a Tory...

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks for the link.

The best I had was South Bucks with Leave 50.7 vs Remain 49.3 (78% turnout)

I wonder what was said to him.

What has driven me nuts about this entire process is how some MPs have stated outright that they have completely ignored their constituents and very few others has publicly stated they have a different opinion to their constituents but have still represented their results and wishes. Like others, my faith in UK politics has been destroyed. I must admit that I was one of the 'disenchanted' voters. Now I'm on the edge of never voting again

 

[ComUtoR]

By the way, that deselection campaign was led by Jon Conway, who not only stood against Grieve as a UKIP candidate in GE 2017, was a UKIP local council candidate and local branch chairman of UKIP, but also stood for the UKIP National Executive Council in 2016...and *now* he's a Tory...

True and I suspect there is a lot of 'politics' going on but that has been going on throughout this entire process. However, if there was an instruction from your constituents to vote a certain way then surely as their MP you should follow it. I'm certainly interested in this story and its potential consequences. I have noticed people are calling out what happened but again, that is democracy in action. This is the system that they live and die by. It truly drives me nuts when things don't go their way and toys come flying out.

 

[Dave1987]

You wonder what lots of leave voting constituencies will do once the consequences of leaving the EU start to have an effect what the results of a general election will be.