EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Doppelganger]

Which 'Brexiteers' are demanding you get behind anything?

And

Why do you think anyone is expecting this of you?

Just most Brexiteers on this forum and in real life, be that in the media or in politics.

The country is now meant to pull together and "Get Brexit Done", whatever that actually means.

As we approach what will be the more complex and certainly prolonged section of the Brexit process, the details on how it will be done and the tangible benefits are still woefully lacking.

The divide won't be healed by bulldozering through such a hard Brexit, so if that is the chosen path, what is it so good that the whole country should support it?

 

[najaB]

Me? Personally? I will be free of the fear that...

So not at all then. Thanks.

 

[JonasB]

Ahh thanks for explaining, so we could have joined Schengen AND kept the pound.

Yes, and you can still do it. (Although I realize there is little political will to join Schengen.)

 

[SteveP29]

Curiously many Remain supporters I've chatted with over the last 4 years or so have been trying to convince me Cameron got a really good deal

Funny how EVERY person I've spoken to has said that he came back with f all, something that wasn't worth the paper it was written on, his Neville Chamberlain moment.

What additional rights do we gain in a few days time?

None, but we do lose the right to shape and be part of strategy, but will have to adhere the rules formulated by that strategy till the end of the year.

 

[Howardh]

Yes, and you can still do it. (Although I realize there is little political will to join Schengen.)

As you say, it's perfectly possible to join Schengen Zone and the Euro, the former is still possible, especially if firms are finding recruiting difficult and our tourists complain en-masse about queuing/delays to get through immigration at EU airports and so on (the loss of EU duty-paid allowances eg. cheap booze will be another) + all the difficulties with the UK/EU Irish borders and could well be a big part of the 2024 general election....if it's in May that's just over 4 years away so not that long. So we would be outside the EU but inside Schengen eventually.

Although in reality we will probably end up accepting EU's with just their ID card and in return the EU will accept us with our shiny new French/Polish-made passports and thus avoiding the ETIAS and VISA schemes; so although we won't be ENTITLED to work in the EU, we will certainly have the right to travel there and stay as long as we want. Currently for ETIAS we will be restricted to 90 days in 180; otherwise we will need a visa.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Could Britain have opted out of free movement?

We could have put tighter controls on it than what we opted to do.
I still fail to understand how people can complain about freedom of movement when we had the option of adding extra controls that we decided not to do.

 

[bramling]

We could have put tighter controls on it than what we opted to do.
I still fail to understand how people can complain about freedom of movement when we had the option of adding extra controls that we decided not to do.

"We" (the electorate) didn't have that option, the Labour government chose not to do so. Coincidentally or otherwise they have been punished at the ballot-box ever since.

 

[Doppelganger]

"We" (the electorate) didn't have that option, the Labour government chose not to do so. Coincidentally or otherwise they have been punished at the ballot-box ever since.

I didn't see the Con-Dem coalition or the all Tory Cameron government do any of that either?

They wouldn't have their bogey man if they actually tried to solve any "issues", it was far easier to blame the big bad EU as that could fit the narrative a lot better.

I wonder who they will blame now. Anyone other than themselves I suspect.

 

[TrafficEng]

I didn't see the Con-Dem coalition or the all Tory Cameron government do any of that either?

They wouldn't have their bogey man if they actually tried to solve any "issues", it was far easier to blame the big bad EU as that could fit the narrative a lot better.

I wonder who they will blame now. Anyone other than themselves I suspect.

The restrictions are transitory, time-limited and cannot be retrospectively applied.

The time limits are an initial period of two years, an extension of three years, and in exceptional circumstances a further extension (with permission) of a further two years.

So restrictions on workers from Bulgaria and Romania (2007) would have expired in 2012 if they had been applied by the Labour government (and even if it were possible to retrospectively apply them).

The only country to join since 2010 was Croatia. The UK (Conservative) Government opted to apply restrictions for 5 years. This time period expired on 30 June 2018.

I'm not clear on what additional steps you were expecting the post-2010 governments to take? What else could they do to solve any "issues"?

 

[Doppelganger]

I'm not clear on what additional steps you were expecting the post-2010 governments to take? What else could they do to solve any "issues"?

The restrictions of sending anyone from the EU home after 3 months if they didn't have a means to support themselves for instance?

 

[superkev]

Three thoughts.
Not sure it's related but all my 4 local tescos had bare shelves of Ibuprofen etc the last few days.
Also interesting is that the proposed agriculture bill does't include anything about chlorinated chicken or hormone fed meat. Hmmm.
Now the jump into the unknown is done I wonder what can be done to retrieve the situation if project fear turns to reality. Could the government be brought down, could we rejoin, other options?
K

 

[edwin_m]

Three thoughts.
Not sure it's related but all my 4 local tescos had bare shelves of Ibuprofen etc the last few days.
Also interesting is that the proposed agriculture bill does't include anything about chlorinated chicken or hormone fed meat. Hmmm.
Now the jump into the unknown is done I wonder what can be done to retrieve the situation if project fear turns to reality. Could the government be brought down, could we rejoin, other options?
K

Unless things get really bad or the government implodes for some other reason, we're stuck with it until at least 2024 plus however long it might take for a new government to negotiate terms to re-join.

 

[Enthusiast]

Not sure it's related but all my 4 local tescos had bare shelves of Ibuprofen etc the last few days.

The have been intermittent shortages of some commonly used drugs - ibuprofen and paracetamol among them - for some months. There have also been shortages of some less commonly used drugs. It is a global problem and has nothing to do with Brexit:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50465563

 

[TrafficEng]

The restrictions of sending anyone from the EU home after 3 months if they didn't have a means to support themselves for instance?

Can you imagine the outrage if a Conservative government started sending people home?

The pictures of schoolchildren weeping because their best friend is leaving the UK because their parent(s) lost their job and they aren't allowed to be here any more?

Any government doing that would be annihilated in the media and at the following election.

So it is a power, but one that has virtually no practical use.

And to be clear, none of the people I know who voted Leave want people to be sent home (unless they are criminals).

 

[mmh]

Can you imagine the outrage if a Conservative government started sending people home?

The pictures of schoolchildren weeping because their best friend is leaving the UK because their parent(s) lost their job and they aren't allowed to be here any more?

Any government doing that would be annihilated in the media and at the following election.

So it is a power, but one that has virtually no practical use.

And to be clear, none of the people I know who voted Leave want people to be sent home (unless they are criminals).

I can't imagine any of that because it's not going to happen.

The more realistic scenario is UK nationals having to return to the UK because, unlike us, the EU states they live in didn't guarantee their status.

 

[najaB]

The more realistic scenario is UK nationals having to return to the UK because, unlike us, the EU states they live in didn't guarantee their status.

To be clear, @TrafficEng was referring to the existing power granted to EU states to require other EU nationals to leave after 3 months if they didn't have the means to support themselves, rather than referring to anything that happens post-Brexit.

 

[najaB]

Can you imagine the outrage if a Conservative government started sending people home?

The pictures of schoolchildren weeping because their best friend is leaving the UK because their parent(s) lost their job and they aren't allowed to be here any more?

It already happens with non-EU nationals on a regular basis, so I don't see that it would really make that big of a splash. I lost two co-workers that way.

 

[Doppelganger]

And to be clear, none of the people I know who voted Leave want people to be sent home (unless they are criminals).

The rise in hate crime immediately following the referendum and again after the last election says otherwise

 

[najaB]

The rise in hate crime immediately following the referendum and again after the last election says otherwise

I don't think you can comment on the people who @TrafficEng knows, unless you happen to know them too?

 

[Doppelganger]

I don't think you can comment on the people who @TrafficEng knows, unless you happen to know them too?

I can comment how I like. The Leave voters all have a collective responsibility for making open racism acceptable.

 

[bramling]

The Leave voters all have a collective responsibility for making open racism acceptable.

The problem is that some people find it impossible to separate population growth and racism. By twisting things into an emotive discussion about the latter it makes it impossible to hold a valid discourse about the former.

It's completely absurd to suggest that desiring to leave a political club equals acceptance of racism.

 

[John Griffiths]

Some, yes. But many leavers fall into that category. Not all, but many.

 

[Enthusiast]

It already happens with non-EU nationals on a regular basis, so I don't see that it would really make that big of a splash. I lost two co-workers that way.

On what basis were the two "sent home"?

 

[Ianno87]

The problem is that some people find it impossible to separate population growth and racism. By twisting things into an emotive discussion about the latter it makes it impossible to hold a valid discourse about the former.

It's completely absurd to suggest that desiring to leave a political club equals acceptance of racism.

Population growth in the UK is roughly half and half split between births outweighing deaths, and net inward migration.

This net inward migration is then something like 1/3 ex-EU and 2/3 rest of world.

Net inward migration to an area is of course an inevitable consequence of that area being economically successful and wanting to attract those with the right, globally sought-after skills.

We should be honoured that these people wamt to bring their skills to contribute to the UK, not turning them away because the A1(M) sometimes has traffic on it.

 

[Struner]

Yes. Some people in some governments realize that. As in the Scottish government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that some people find it impossible to separate population growth and racism. By twisting things into an emotive discussion about the latter it makes it impossible to hold a valid discourse about the former.

It's completely absurd to suggest that desiring to leave a political club equals acceptance of racism.

And it's also not necessarily the case that a desire for reduced immigration is on racist grounds. There are plenty of other justifications for not wanting more immigration, such as increasing house prices and pressure on public services due to increasing population. And there are also good arguments for allowing immigration based on choosing those people who will bring most to the country by coming here, e.g. fill jobs (such as doctors) that we have trouble filling ourselves, not just bringing in lots of manual workers and people to serve on the desk at cafes.

 

[Struner]

Not sure whether employers relying on cheap labour will agree with you there.

 

[najaB]

On what basis were the two "sent home"?

Being foreign nationals who weren't earning enough to meet the income requirements. One was married to a Brit who wasn't working (stay a home mum), I think the other was in a relationship but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[bramling]

Population growth in the UK is roughly half and half split between births outweighing deaths, and net inward migration.

This net inward migration is then something like 1/3 ex-EU and 2/3 rest of world.

Net inward migration to an area is of course an inevitable consequence of that area being economically successful and wanting to attract those with the right, globally sought-after skills.

We should be honoured that these people wamt to bring their skills to contribute to the UK, not turning them away because the A1(M) sometimes has traffic on it.

A typically emotive way of looking at things which completely fails to consider how population growth might be accommodated. Simply on the basis we live in a country with finite landmass there has to come a point where enough is enough.

 

[najaB]

Simply on the basis we live in a country with finite landmass there has to come a point where enough is enough.

Yes, we will reach that point but we are nowhere near it. According to the Ordinance Survey, less than 7% of the UK's land is built on.