EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[ExRes]

Are you defending the fact that our next prime minister will be chosen only by members of the conservative party?

Yes, the Conservative party were voted into power, not David Cameron or Theresa May. I have no doubts whatsoever that if Labour, Lib Dems, Greens or anyone else were in power they would behave in exactly the same manner

 

[miami]

Yes, the Conservative party were voted into power, not David Cameron or Theresa May. I have no doubts whatsoever that if Labour, Lib Dems, Greens or anyone else were in power they would behave in exactly the same manner

Actualy 650 individuals were elected, not the conservative party.

Perfectly acceptable way to run things, it's how the EU commission president is run.

It's just hypocritical when people complain about EU democracy don't complain about this.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes, the Conservative party were voted into power, not David Cameron or Theresa May. I have no doubts whatsoever that if Labour, Lib Dems, Greens or anyone else were in power they would behave in exactly the same manner

So you're happy to throw out institutional power you don't like (the EU), but you'll defend institutional power because it's institutional when it suits you?

That isn't very consistent.

 

[anme]

So you're happy to throw out institutional power you don't like (the EU), but you'll defend institutional power because it's institutional when it suits you?

That isn't very consistent.

I think you're completely misunderstanding the mindset of someone who voted to leave. It's not about logic or consistency or common sense or facts. It's about - well, what is it about exactly? Maybe ExRes can enlighen us.

 

[anme]

And on a related note:

Andrea Leadsom withdraws from Tory leadership race
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-36570120

 

[ExRes]

So you're happy to throw out institutional power you don't like (the EU), but you'll defend institutional power because it's institutional when it suits you?

That isn't very consistent.

We have taken part in a democratic vote and rejected the EU, if enough people are against our current voting system then it's up to them to change it, I see nothing inconsistent with that view

 

[TheKnightWho]

We have taken part in a democratic vote and rejected the EU, if enough people are against our current voting system then it's up to them to change it, I see nothing inconsistent with that view

Irrelevant. Why do you make the inconsistent arguments that you do?

 

[anme]

Irrelevant. Why do you make the inconsistent arguments that you do?

Well, fun though this is it's now become a moot point. Theresa May will likely be PM by the end of the week.

So, what should she do now? We have a very very big decision ahead of us - what do we want after the UK leaves the EU? This is a much more fundamental question than that of EU membership. How do people think we should make that choice? Clearly there must now be a general election, and/or a referendum between something like a Norwegian/Swiss Model and something like a Turkish/Canadian model - don't you think? It would be moronic to demand an EU referendum, but not want another referendum/election now to make this even bigger decision, right?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well, fun though this is it's now become a moot point. Theresa May will likely be PM by the end of the week.

So, what should she do now? We have a very very big decision ahead of us - what do we want after the UK leaves the EU? This is a much more fundamental question than that of EU membership. How do people think we should make that choice? Clearly there must now be a general election, and/or a referendum between something like a Norwegian/Swiss Model and something like a Turkish/Canadian model - don't you think? It would be moronic to demand an EU referendum, but not want another referendum/election now to make this even bigger decision, right?

Certain Leavers want the referendum to justify any and all curbs to future democracy that they wish to make. As seen by calls for this thread to be closed, for us to immediately cut off all ties with the EU, or even (from some) to start deporting foreigners, although thankfully not on this board.

The democracy argument was, from the very beginning, a complete red herring.

 

[anme]

Certain Leavers want the referendum to justify any and all curbs to future democracy that they wish to make. As seen by calls for this thread to be closed, for us to immediately cut off all ties with the EU, or even (from some) to start deporting foreigners, although thankfully not on this board.

The democracy argument was, from the very beginning, a complete red herring.

Be that as it may, don't you think we need a referendum or a general election to decide what we want to come next? If not, how should the choice be made?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Be that as it may, don't you think we need a referendum or a general election to decide what we want to come next? If not, how should the choice be made?

I think we probably should have a general election, although that requires a No Confidence vote (definitely not going to happen), or a 2/3 majority in favour on an election. I can't see that happening either.

 

[anme]

I think we probably should have a general election, although that requires a No Confidence vote (definitely not going to happen), or a 2/3 majority in favour on an election. I can't see that happening either.

Not having a go at you, but why would we not *demand* a referendum at this point? The difference between future EEA membership or isolation is *huge*, and what to do after a leave vote was not covered in any party's manifesto in the last election (*). I'm not even convinced a general election will help, as the winning party will likely secure less than 40% of the vote and the major parties are badly split on the issue.

To be honest, I'm astonished that more people, both remainer and leavers, don't seem to feel the same. Shouldn't we be marching on parliament demanding to have a say?

(*) with the possible exception of UKIP - I'm not going to depress myself by Googling that right now.

 

[Senex]

Clearly there must now be a general election, and/or a referendum between something like a Norwegian/Swiss Model and something like a Turkish/Canadian model - don't you think? It would be moronic to demand an EU referendum, but not want another referendum/election now to make this even bigger decision, right?

I don't see how a general election at this point would help, given that both major parties are massively split on the Europe issue and that we haven't a clue about what sort of relationship might be on offer for the future. If, say, there were a Tory manifesto position that we were going for a WTO relationship and a Labour commitment to go for a Norway-style arrangement, then yes to the general election idea. But can you see either party agreeing within itself to make that sort of clear manifesto commitment?

But I do agree with you completely that there needs to be some form of popular endorsement of the actual proposed relationship with the EU after leaving, when we really do know what the terms of our future are, and the only way I can see of doing this is through another one-issue referendum.

 

[anme]

But I do agree with you completely that there needs to be some form of popular endorsement of the actual proposed relationship with the EU after leaving, when we really do know what the terms of our future are, and the only way I can see of doing this is through another one-issue referendum.

Given that it looks like we'll have a new PM much sooner than expected, we need a bit of a rethink.

I'd been expecting a summer of chaos with a bit more clarity about the UK's negotiating position emerging in the autumn, and article 50 being invoked by Christmas at the earliest.

However, Theresa May will probably be in power in a few days' time and we can move forward more quickly. She will soon need to tell us what she wants. Broadly, she has three choices:

1. EEA or Swiss models, within the single market and with freedom of movement. Businesses and the 48% will be happy, leavers will be unhappy, and the economy will likely recover. May can talk up immigration controls (Norway has some *very* limited extra powers) which might mollify the foreigner-hating brigade a little - after all, they believed the lies of the leave campaign.

2. Isolation - the Canadian or Turkish models, with less single market access and without free movement. (actually there are some substantial differences between the two, but let's skip over these for now) The economy will tank and there will be years of decline and uncertainty. The EU might start to become very popular, Or, much worse, xenophobia might take over and the UK's self-inflicted problems may be unjustly blamed on foreigners. If there's any sign of the latter happening, get out as quickly as you can.

3. Lies - May can claim we will get single market access and no freedom of movement. This might make her popular in the short term, but deeply unpopular in the longer term when she can't deliver (not necessarily with me - I'm a very very strong supporter of freedom of movement). The markets will not believe her either and the effect will be similar to option 2.

Which is it to be? A referendum would have to happen quite soon, between options 1 and 2. If we are going to invoke article 50, option 1 is surely the only sane way forward, right?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because not all Leave voters voted Leave because of immigration, it is arguable that option 1 (EEA/EFTA) will satisfy the majority of voters.

 

[anme]

Because not all Leave voters voted Leave because of immigration, it is arguable that option 1 (EEA/EFTA) will satisfy the majority of voters.

Actually that's a good point. If we assume we need to satisfy a majority (which is not necessarily the case in British politics, of course), and simplifying massively, we only need to persuade 2.1% of the electorate to switch sides to make a majority for a "remain"-like option. That's about 1 in 25 leave voters.

And remember that "leave" voters are much older than "remain" voters. Many will sadly have died in a couple of years and, ironically, will no longer be around to impose their views on the young.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say even simpler than that.

Some Leave voters will be satisfied by an EEA/EFTA option with freedom of movement retained.

If they accept that reversing the decision is not going to happen, I would imagine near all Remain voters will be satisfied by that option.

Thus, it would probably, if put to a vote, get over 60-70% support.

 

[Gutfright]

And remember that "leave" voters are much older than "remain" voters. Many will sadly have died in a couple of years and, ironically, will no longer be around to impose their views on the young.

On one hand we have a group with the wisdom of experience, a group with grandchildren they care deeply about who they want to give the best possible future.

On the other hand we have a bunch of n00bs with little or no experience of the adult world.

Which of these groups are best placed to decide the future of the country?

 

[TheKnightWho]

On one hand we have a group with the wisdom of experience, a group with grandchildren they care deeply about who they want to give the best possible future.

On the other hand we have a bunch of n00bs with little or no experience of the adult world.

Which of these groups are best placed to decide the future of the country?

The people who actually have to live through it. Sorry, are you calling us all stupid now?

I just knew that that claim was you projecting, but at least you've admitted it now.



On a separate note, the Daily Mail are telling yet more porkies: claiming that the pound has surged after Leadsom dropped out, but it's already back to where it was. Do we need any more proof that the Brexit press are absolutely desperate for good news?

 

[Gutfright]

The people who actually have to live through it. Sorry, are you calling us all stupid now?

I just knew that that claim was you projecting, but at least you've admitted it now.

So the group with the wisdom of experience know that Brexit will be terrible, and voted leave to punish their grandchildren?

Interesting theory!

 

[TheKnightWho]

So the group with the wisdom of experience know that Brexit will be terrible, and voted leave to punish their grandchildren?

Interesting theory!

Have you seen the amount of hatred directed at young people? However, you addressed a point I simply did not make.

I'll try again: are you calling young people stupid? Because it sounds like you are.

 

[Railops]

Have you seen the amount of hatred directed at young people? However, you addressed a point I simply did not make.

I'll try again: are you calling young people stupid? Because it sounds like you are.

I'm calling them immature as they can't be anything else. It's not their fault though, everybody has to grow up, although some do a lot slower than others.
Some like all age groups are incredibly stupid though that's a fact.
What irritates people is that some think they know it all, they are experts in every field because they've read something on Facebook and that's always correct.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm calling them immature as they can't be anything else. It's not their fault though, everybody has to grow up, although some do a lot slower than others.

You're evidently behind the curve - you honestly do remind me of some of the children I teach.

But frankly, I think we've got to the real heart of the issue: Brexiters are upset at people calling them stupid because they want to call everyone else stupid. Brilliant!

Should I point to the lack of education amongst Brexiters being evidence that they don't know what they're talking about? Will you get offended by that? Because knowing you you will: you've been very sensitive on previous threads.

What irritates people is that some think they know it all, they are experts in every field because they've read something on Facebook and that's always correct.

What do you know that makes you more intelligent? You asked me to explain how I know what I'm talking about - what makes you so informed?

 

[Howardh]

heard on radio 5 that there is a possibility of a (sorry, didn't catch the term) period where we remain in the EU but hold back on A50; the idea being that a committee is put together to decide what the "aims" of Brexit are.

if that were to happen, then
a) what if, in the first place, those objectives aren't what the majority want
b) if we agree on the objectives but fail to reach agreements with the EU?

Are we going to leave it single-handed with the Government, with or without a General Election, or will we get a further referendum on the outcome (and if so, could one option on that referendum be to dismiss the results of the negotiations and remain in the EU; after all, by then many Brexiters may have changed their mind)?

 

[Gutfright]

Have you seen the amount of hatred directed at young people? However, you addressed a point I simply did not make.

I'll try again: are you calling young people stupid? Because it sounds like you are.

Intelligence is not the same as wisdom.

The group with the wisdom of experience generally thinks that leaving is for the best.

The n00bs generally feel like remaining is a good idea.

Nice try though. Better luck next time!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Intelligence Is not the same as wisdom.

The group with the wisdom of experience generally thinks that leaving is a for the best.

The n00bs generally feel like remaining is a good idea.

Nice try though. Better luck next time!

And by what measure do they have more wisdom? Wisdom comes through education - something which Brexiters, as a demographic, tend to have less of. Are you saying that the younger generation are unfit to make decisions for this country? Isn't that awfully patronising of you?

Simply having lived longer does not mean that you know what direction this country should go in. If we only listened to older people, the vast majority of social progress would never have occurred.

(But don't worry - next time you're backed into a corner make sure to throw around words like 'n00b' because it makes you feel like you know what you're talking about.)

 

[meridian2]

Where's your evidence that the 'demographic of Brexiters have less intelligence'?

 

[Gutfright]

Wisdom comes through education

So life experience counts for nothing? Only formal education makes us wise?

May I respectfully suggest that you're talking out of your arse?

 

[TheKnightWho]

So life experience counts for nothing? Only formal education makes us wise?

May I respectfully suggest that you're talking out of your arse?

May I respectfully suggest that you're a complete hypocrite?

No-one said that life experience counts for nothing. It doesn't necessarily make you wise on how to run the country though.

Please keep telling me that young people don't have a clue though - it's really helping your case.

 

[Gutfright]

No-one said that life experience counts for nothing.

So you admit that the claim "wisdom comes from education" is at best misleading and at worst completely false?

It doesn't necessarily make you wise on how to run the country though.

I don't remember the question "How should the country be run?" appearing anywhere on the ballot paper.