EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[anme]

Well assuming he or she already enjoys cheering on British sportsmen / women what would they gain by not doing it?

I think you're focussing on the wrong thing. As I said, I don't understand the impulse to "support" a sportsperson, and certainly not because of where they were born, but I assume it's an emotional reaction not a conscious decision. It's not really a choice.

More important is the boycotting of British products and holidaying elsewhere in the EU that was also mentioned. Isn't it important to stand up for what we believe in?

 

[anme]

Yes and that is the point. It may. France may vote in le penn and that may have dramatic effects on the Eu. There are to many ifs, buts and maybes from outside uk and eu that could change everything

All true. You will have to judge the probabilities for yourself, but even if the worst does happen, we have far less influence outside the club than inside it.

 

[Aldaniti]

More important is the boycotting of British products and holidaying elsewhere in the EU. That will make a (small) difference, will it not? Isn't it important to stand up for what we believe in?

That tells me all I need to know about you.... and your embittered fellow Remainer who first raised it. :roll:

 

[anme]

That tells me all I need to know about you.... and your embittered fellow Remainer who first raised it. :roll:

What exactly does it tell you about me? Why don't you think it's important to stand up for your (rational) beliefs? (I'm not boycotting British products, BTW - I have never said I am, and I did actually reword my previous post to clarify that)

I notice you haven't commented on the issue of the day yet - this Economist article: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its

 

[Aldaniti]

I notice you haven't commented on the issue of the day yet - this Economist article: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its

Sorry, I didn't realise it was compulsory to respond to every opinion and every piece of drivel in cyberspace.

So I must be a thick, northern Brexiteer I guess.

 

[anme]

Sorry, I didn't realise it was compulsory to respond to every opinion and every piece of drivel in cyberspace.

So I must be a thick, northern Brexiteer I guess.

I thought you might like the chance to discuss the UK's decision to leave the EU and what should happen next (which is, after all, the subject of this thread). To be honest, you seem more interested in speculating about the personal circumstances of other posters. Now, I'm sure that impression is wrong but we can only judge our fellow posters on what they post.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have posted the link to the article several times. Here it is again: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its



That's a very dangerous argument. Do you really think we should leave questions such as "should the UK remain in the EU" to qualified economists? They made their position pretty clear!

It's also not true. The central argument of the article is very simple - that control and autonomy are not the same thing. For example, that a country of 60 million people has less influence than a country of 300 million people when it comes to trade negotiations. You really do not have to have a degree in economics to understand it.



Indeed - but then you fall under my category 2:
They lack the intelligence and/or knowledge to read, understand, analyse and/or write a reasoned response [...], even in the most basic terms.

You're dangerously close to arguing that leave supporters in this forum are idiots. (To be clear, I don't think that)

How deliberately and transparently obtuse!

Firstly, my point is that this is a forum which brings people together because they're train enthusiasts. I think it's safe to say that most posters won't read the Economist (by that I mean habitually), because they are simply not interested in what it discusses. I would not expect everyone of the forum to read the FT, for example.

Apparently I fall under your category of being unable to write a reasoned response, because I'm either not intelligent enough or I don't have sufficient knowledge.

Guess what? I'm quite happy to admit I don't have proper knowledge to rebut the Economist article with the same strength or authority with which it was written. Nor do I intend trying to do so. I say that as a well-educated, double home-owning, NRS Social Grade B, 30 year old man.

It's usually better - I think - to concentrate discussion on things you know about than things you don't, else you appear a fool. One of the smartest and bravest things to say is "I do not know".

A genuinely smart person would realise that you are shouting into the void on this thread.

 

[anme]

How deliberately and transparently obtuse!

Firstly, my point is that this is a forum which brings people together because they're train enthusiasts. I think it's safe to say that most posters won't read the Economist (by that I mean habitually), because they are simply not interested in what it discusses. I would not expect everyone of the forum to read the FT, for example.

Apparently I fall under your category of being unable to write a reasoned response, because I'm either not intelligent enough or I don't have sufficient knowledge.

I'm not asking you to read the Economist or the FT. I'm asking you to read a single article. Can I ask if you've actually read it? The points it makes are simple and easy to understand and these points (or their opposite) *have been made many times in this very thread*! They are central to whether the UK is right to leave the EU and (more relevantly now) the single market. If we can't discuss them here, where can we discuss them?

Guess what? I'm quite happy to admit I don't have proper knowledge to rebut the Economist article with the same strength or authority with which it was written. Nor do I intend trying to do so. I say that as a well-educated, double home-owning, NRS Social Grade B, 30 year old man.

It's usually better - I think - to concentrate discussion on things you know about than things you don't, else you appear a fool. One of the smartest and bravest things to say is "I do not know".

I agree, but what can we discuss on this thread if not the "EU Referendum: The result and aftermath..." - which is the title of this thread? I assume that's why people come here, and I am trying to provoke the discussion on exactly that subject. The article discusses "taking back control" and why leaving the EU actually achieves the opposite for the UK, which seems very relevant.

I'm not asking you to rebut the Economist article with the same strength and authority with which it was written (which to be honest, doesn't seem that high if you actually read it), but to at least comment on which bits you disagree with (if any) and why.

A genuinely smart person would realise that you are shouting into the void on this thread.

I am sure that's not true.

 

[Aldaniti]

I thought you might like the chance to discuss the UK's decision to leave the EU and what should happen next (which is, after all, the subject of this thread). To be honest, you seem more interested in speculating about the personal circumstances of other posters. Now, I'm sure that impression is wrong but we can only judge our fellow posters on what they post.

Your personal circumstances are none of my business, I'm responding to your comments and opinions which you have placed in a public arena, and the impression about you that comes across as a result.

Nobody is arguing against your beliefs, its the way in which you put them across and the way you respond to those who disagree with you that invites ridicule.
Alter Ego sums it up more eloquently than I have in his comment above.

At the end of the day, Remainers and Leavers are never going to agree, perhaps my own mistake was commenting in this thread.

 

[Howardh]

Interesting the comments about supporting your national teams/sportspersons! here goes, and this has nowt to do with the EU!

Football; my teams are Holland, Scotland and, er. Liechtenstein. Not England, I hate them with a vengeance, (over paid, over hyped, over rated, tournaments over too quickly) so my "home" nation is courtesy of my Gran, the Totally Inept Tartan Army. Holland gives me the chance of a team that (used to) play great football, and has totally wonderful fans that are admired the world over and even Germany.
Liechtenstein is self-explanatory, as none of the above will ever win the World Cup, then it's obviously Liechtenstein for my armchair glory-hunting.

Cricket. Lancashire first, second (continue till about 56th) and then England. England on the TV, Lancashire on the radio, Lancashire gets the attention.

Hockey. England. Followed England all over Europe.

Curling.England then Scotland - I try to follow England live whenever time allows.

 

[furnessvale]

I notice you haven't commented on the issue of the day yet - this Economist article: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its

This post shows exactly why I have stopped responding to yours, and some others, posts.

You write like some overbearing schoolmaster setting homework. Frankly I am bored with it all.

The important thing is that leave won the day and we are leaving. I am in the forum for its railway content which is where I spend most of my time. I only look at this thread once in a while for a laugh.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not asking you to read the Economist or the FT. I'm asking you to read a single article. Can I ask if you've actually read it? The points it makes are simple and easy to understand and these points (or their opposite) *have been made many times in this very thread*! They are central to whether the UK is right to leave the EU and (more relevantly now) the single market. If we can't discuss them here, where can we discuss them?



I agree, but what can we discuss on this thread if not the "EU Referendum: The result and aftermath..." - which is the title of this thread? I assume that's why people come here, and I am trying to provoke the discussion on exactly that subject. The article discusses "taking back control" and why leaving the EU actually achieves the opposite for the UK, which seems very relevant.

I'm not asking you to rebut the Economist article with the same strength and authority with which it was written (which to be honest, doesn't seem that high if you actually read it), but to at least comment on which bits you disagree with (if any) and why.



I am sure that's not true.

I have read the article and can find no reason within my limited knowledge of the subject of the nexus between freedom of movement/economic success to call it out as "wrong". I have no reason to suppose it is wrong or biased. I also believe the mantra of "taking back control" is sorely misconceived by Leavers. I am not trying to disagree with the article but simply take you up on:

1) your demand that everyone passing through today read the article you found and proclaimed to be the "issue of the day" is boorish and overbearing,

2) just because someone does not come forward and disagree with the article does not mean that, by default, they agree with the point made, and

3) just because someone cannot articulate exactly why they disagree with something does not make them either incorrect or in agreement.

It does not matter any more whether the UK was right to leave the EU or not. I am sure that it was a bad decision. That is my, and your right to hold that opinion. But we should recognise we were outvoted; tough titty for us.

We should attempt to recognise why we were outvoted. As you've no doubt found out, it wasn't because of facts. It has everything to do with how facts are presented, by whom, and in what tone. A recent study has found that trust in government and business leaders is at an all time low, with the *majority of people* distrusting these types of people. The strongest influencers are "someone like me". Thus, the alienation between popular opinion and incumbent academic and authority figures is underlined. It would help, I think, to be more introspective about why this has happened in not just our society, but western democratic states in general. Note that I do not pretend to have the answer to this; it may take a generation to resolve this angst.

Until then I will let Brexit happen. I am fortunate enough to be in a position where I am unlikely to come to serious harm as a result of it (if in fact any harm does result - let's wait and see). Equally, I would feel patronising if I were to tell people who voted Leave "well, it's you guys who will feel the pain most, let me help you with that/show you all the facts etc".

I am no English or British patriot in the slightest - and I have good personal reasons why I would never be. Still, I value Britain as a good place to live, and it has been good to me.

The majority of voters voted to leave; that's that. My record of never voting for a winner in any election remains well and truly intact!

 

[anme]

How deliberately and transparently obtuse!

Firstly, my point is that this is a forum which brings people together because they're train enthusiasts. I think it's safe to say that most posters won't read the Economist (by that I mean habitually), because they are simply not interested in what it discusses. I would not expect everyone of the forum to read the FT, for example.

Apparently I fall under your category of being unable to write a reasoned response, because I'm either not intelligent enough or I don't have sufficient knowledge.

Guess what? I'm quite happy to admit I don't have proper knowledge to rebut the Economist article with the same strength or authority with which it was written. Nor do I intend trying to do so. I say that as a well-educated, double home-owning, NRS Social Grade B, 30 year old man.

It's usually better - I think - to concentrate discussion on things you know about than things you don't, else you appear a fool. One of the smartest and bravest things to say is "I do not know".

A genuinely smart person would realise that you are shouting into the void on this thread.

I think it's time to move on from that article as clearly no-one is interested in debating the subject "EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...", despite the title of the thread.

I'd like to highlight this post again, because it's a perfect example of something very interesting and very disturbing. Our friend "AlterEgo" appears to believe that he/she is not capable of understanding a simple, short article in a mainstream news magazine (the Economist is really not an academic journal). Why would someone of apparently good intelligence, and who considers themselves well-educated, believe the subject of the UK's prospects outside the EU to be beyond their comprehension? There are many other examples above and below, of people referring to themselves as stupid or similar, and/or refusing to justify or discuss their beliefs - despite posting in a forum thread on the subject and presumably in many cases having voted in the referendum.

I suspect that leavers are not on average less intelligent than remain supporters. But this is not about leave or remain supporters. This is about all of us. If we can use a computer, we are all intelligent enough to understand the issues and form and justify our opinions.

Why do so many not do so? Perhaps because politicians tell us that we're stupid. The perfect example is Michael Gove's famous quote about experts. Many saw this as simple intellectual dishonesty, but I think it was much more than that. Not listening to experts is stupid. Who do you go to when you're sick - a qualified doctor or a loudmouth in a pub? This is obvious to anyone who can read this forum. What Gove was really saying was that we are too stupid to understand the subject. He was saying ignore experts, and listen to me instead. He was saying *do not try to understand this*. He was saying *do not think for yourself*.

For obvious reasons, this is a very, very dangerous direction for a democracy.

BTW, posts by remainers calling leave supporters stupid are part of the problem. Do not allow anyone to define themselves by their imagined stupidity. Calling them stupid is both wrong and counterproductive, and pushes us even further from rational thinking, discussion and progress.

Small update: thanks to "AlterEgo" for actually reading the article. I hope you found it interesting and I apologise for calling you out in this post - your post was just the nearest example of the problem I wanted to highlight.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think you're focussing on the wrong thing. As I said, I don't understand the impulse to "support" a sportsperson, and certainly not because of where they were born, but I assume it's an emotional reaction not a conscious decision. It's not really a choice.

No, I'm focussing on what was said. Of course you have a choice whether to stand up and cheer, it's not voices in your head telling you to do so. Or at least lets hope not. If you're not into sport you're not into sport.

Although of course if you are right and it's not really a choice whether you support sporting activity or not then how are you going to switch from supporting someone to not doing so?

Assuming that our fellow forum member used to enjoy cheering on sporting activity, he / she now cutting off their face to spite their nose won't make a scrap of difference to anyone else. And of course they will have taken away some of the / perhaps all of the fun and excitement from their life.

 

[RichmondCommu]

More important is the boycotting of British products and holidaying elsewhere in the EU that was also mentioned. Isn't it important to stand up for what we believe in?

I know lots of people who voted to stay in the EU, including myself. However I don't know of anyone who has a made a decision to change where they purchase items or where they choose to holiday so how will boycotting something make a difference if no one else is doing so? It will be a pointless act and you will just make life more difficult for yourself.

After the referendum there were a few protests around the country but these have all petered out because not enough people are interested in getting out on the streets. And the same goes for boycotting products, it's just futile.

 

[Howardh]

I know lots of people who voted to stay in the EU, including myself. However I don't of anyone who has a made a decision to change where they purchase items or where they choose to holiday so how will boycotting something make a difference if no one else is doing so? It will be a pointless act and you will just make life more difficult for yourself.

After the referendum there were a few protests around the country but these have all petered out because not enough people are interested in getting out on the streets. And the same goes for boycotting products, it's just futile.

There may be a bit of a rush pre-Brexit to get big ticket items in just in case there are price rises afterwards. Bit like in the old "Beat the Budget" days. If inflation takes off, and people have to cut back, they may make conscious decisions to keep their main holiday abroad and scrap long week-ends, easter here etc.
Not quite sure why going abroad "will just make life more difficult"? Booking a flight and hotel on-line, showing up at the airport and flying off a few more times a year? If that's a difficult life, bring it on!!

 

[radamfi]

Well exactly. He's bitter and miserable.

The country of my birth has betrayed me. It has destroyed the future I've been planning for for decades in good faith and thrown me to the wolves. So this country no longer deserves my support.

 

[AlterEgo]

The country of my birth has betrayed me. It has destroyed the future I've been planning for for decades in good faith and thrown me to the wolves. So this country no longer deserves my support.

I hope you feel less miserable soon.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm not asking you to read the Economist or the FT. I'm asking you to read a single article. Can I ask if you've actually read it? The points it makes are simple and easy to understand and these points (or their opposite) *have been made many times in this very thread*! They are central to whether the UK is right to leave the EU and (more relevantly now) the single market. If we can't discuss them here, where can we discuss them?

I was the one who originally posted the article - and I did so because I felt it gave a slightly new - and very topical - perspective on one of the arguments against Brexit, from a source that is extremely reputable: The way that Brexit is causing the UK to need America much more and the possible connection with how our PM is behaving towards an atrocious US President.

Indeed since I posted the article, the situation with Trump and May has become - to my mind - even more depressing, with May holding Trump's hand, refusing to condemn his appalling actions in barring people including refugees and - as far as I'm aware - remaining completely silent about climate change. It's really looking to me like Teresa May is acting like Trump's poodle, and that does not bode well for the future.

Having said all that, I think if you want to have a discussion on the topic, then the best way is to comment on it and allow others to respond if they wish. Trying to brow-beat people into reading and commenting specifically on the article doesn't strike me as very considerate to others.

 

[EMU Driver]

That tells me all I need to know about you.... and your embittered fellow Remainer who first raised it. :roll:

Not all Remainers are bitter....I'm not.
I dont wan't to leave the EU at all, I think it's economic suicide but hoping for the best:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Having said all that, I think if you want to have a discussion on the topic, then the best way is to comment on it and allow others to respond if they wish. Trying to brow-beat people into reading and commenting specifically on the article doesn't strike me as very considerate to others.

As yorkie often is at paints to point out, a new thread can always be opened to discuss matters of debate that emanate from a specific point on a previous thread.

 

[Howardh]

Not all Remainers are bitter....I'm not.
I dont wan't to leave the EU at all, I think it's economic suicide but hoping for the best:roll:

That's exactly it, but unfortunately we aren't in the driver's seat :cry: and we're hoping the driver's passed their test and can read a map. If he takes us to the Golden Lands, then well done him/her, if it's La-la Land, then they had better be prepared for the crash landing and all the flak they get from us.

We're not off to the greatest of starts, in bed with a tyrant who won't let in people to his country even though they have the right documents (visa, green card, passports etc).

Still, it can only get better. At least we've not sold arms to Turkey, and possibly in return allow visa-free access to their citizens, just like Brexit wanted...

 

[EMU Driver]

That's exactly it, but unfortunately we aren't in the driver's seat :cry: and we're hoping the driver's passed their test and can read a map. If he takes us to the Golden Lands, then well done him/her, if it's La-la Land, then they had better be prepared for the crash landing and all the flak they get from us.

We're not off to the greatest of starts, in bed with a tyrant who won't let in people to his country even though they have the right documents (visa, green card, passports etc).

Still, it can only get better. At least we've not sold arms to Turkey, and possibly in return allow visa-free access to their citizens, just like Brexit wanted...

Yet.......
I hate Brexit...I remain hopeful but deep down I really hope it goes pear shaped and the Brexiteers are forced to eat their racist and nationalist drivel. I really do

 

[Howardh]

Yet.......
I hate Brexit...I remain hopeful but deep down I really hope it goes pear shaped and the Brexiteers are forced to eat their racist and nationalist drivel. I really do

Yes...but..if the country sinks we go down with it. Much as I hate it, it has to work. I've a pension to go missing...

 

[RichmondCommu]

The country of my birth has betrayed me. It has destroyed the future I've been planning for for decades in good faith and thrown me to the wolves. So this country no longer deserves my support.

Why has it taken you so long to plan your future? Perhaps you should have had a bit more 'quick march on the double'?

I don't suppose the country will careless whether it has your support or not.

Just how hungry are those wolves?

 

[RichmondCommu]

There may be a bit of a rush pre-Brexit to get big ticket items in just in case there are price rises afterwards. Bit like in the old "Beat the Budget" days. If inflation takes off, and people have to cut back, they may make conscious decisions to keep their main holiday abroad and scrap long week-ends, easter here etc.

In all fairness a lot of "big ticket" items are actually made overseas. However for something like sofa's not everyone has the room to store a spare sofa on the basis that the current one might need replacing in five years time.

In terms of overseas holidays a lot will depend on what happens to Sterling, especially against the Euro and the Dollar. I honestly can't see a religious festival being cancelled anytime soon and if you can afford two weeks by the 'Med (with a weak pound) you can afford a weekend walking in the 'Lakes.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Not quite sure why going abroad "will just make life more difficult"? Booking a flight and hotel on-line, showing up at the airport and flying off a few more times a year? If that's a difficult life, bring it on!!

Going overseas certainly won't make life more difficult however ditching the better product because you want to hurt your own economy (and possibly put yourself out of a job) certainly will make life more difficult.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's exactly it, but unfortunately we aren't in the driver's seat :cry: and we're hoping the driver's passed their test and can read a map. If he takes us to the Golden Lands, then well done him/her, if it's La-la Land, then they had better be prepared for the crash landing and all the flak they get from us.

From what I read of the film La La Land, it would appear there would be most certainly a surfeit of musicians should that so apply.

 

[radamfi]

Why has it taken you so long to plan your future? Perhaps you should have had a bit more 'quick march on the double'?

I don't suppose the country will careless whether it has your support or not.

Just how hungry are those wolves?

If I knew what was going to happen I would have left just after university when it would have been easy, but I was too risk averse. Obviously back then I knew I could leave any time because of EU membership. Now personal circumstances prevent departure until many years into the future.

For a Remainer you show a remarkable lack of empathy. To be honest, your posts suggest that you would have been more at home voting Leave.

 

[St Rollox]

I'm just waiting for the SNP to implode. Looks like the SNP are already stamping their feet over the ruling.

What's with the last of the Labour vote in Scotland jumping straight across to the Tories?