EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[nidave]

And in a country which is already heavily developed and with limited space to affordably enhance infrastructure provision, difficult choices may have to be made in order to control population growth.

Are you talking about the UK or places like India or Pakistan ???

 

[nidave]

The problem with universal access in many of those countries is that it's not *quite* universal. Certainly, wherever the model is rembursment via insurance the poor have significantly worse healthcare outcomes.

The other issue is that where healthcare is operated on a for-profit basis, costs are higher with no commensurate improvement in outcomes. The extreme example being, naturally, the United States where costs are several orders of magnitude higher than the UK (eg high drug prices) despite having significantly worse outcomes than any other OECD country.

My late aunt worked as a A&E / E.R. nurse starting in the UK and later moving to the USA. She said the difference was stark - in London the first question they asked the ambulance crews as they wheeled people through be door was "What are we dealing with?" In New York it was "Does (s)he have insurance?"

Isn't the bill for us medi aid -(which has the name number of users as the NHS or there abouts) far higher than the bill for the NHS.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unrestricted i agree is not a good idea. Fortunately the EU has all sorts of mechanisms for denying anyone to stay if they can't demonstrate they are in work. Of course we choose not to use them.

If someone isn’t working then they aren’t labour... the main issue isn’t people coming to countries to simply not work, or beg.

The EU does have entirely unrestricted freedom of labour.

 

[Howardh]

If someone isn’t working then they aren’t labour... the main issue isn’t people coming to countries to simply not work, or beg.

The EU does have entirely unrestricted freedom of labour.

You do know that within the EU, the UK has a perfect right to return any EU national who comes here, and after three months isn't working and can't support themselves?

 

[najaB]

Isn't the bill for us medi aid -(which has the name number of users as the NHS or there abouts) far higher than the bill for the NHS.

This is perhaps getting off-topic, but the US has two main government health schemes: Medicare and Medicaid. The former is the closest to our NHS in that it provides basic medical cover at no final cost to the end-user, though it is not free at the point of delivery in most cases. Patients are expected to have private medical insurance that pays 100% of the initial cost and covers anything not included under Medicare.

As a result it has a very complex reimbursement system that is a large part of the reason why its more expensive to operate than the NHS. In the current election cycle the idea of "Medicare for all" has been raised by most (if not all) of the main Democratic candidates.

IIRC, Medicaid is only available to people in receipt of social benefits and it only provides enough care to make it unlikely that you'll die. Probably.

 

[najaB]

The EU does have entirely unrestricted freedom of labour.

I really can't see a problem with that. The only way someone can move to take up a job is if there's a job to be taken. Would you rather that the job remained unfilled - meaning no income tax revenue and potential stunted business growth reducing corporation tax?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really can't see a problem with that. The only way someone can move to take up a job is if there's a job to be taken. Would you rather that the job remained unfilled - meaning no income tax revenue and potential stunted business growth reducing corporation tax?

Where it becomes a possible issue is where that skews the market in favour of a diaspora who will come to the UK to work and send the money back home (so it doesn't circulate around the UK economy) and will typically take a lower wage and a very poor standard of living (cramming many in a house for instance) for a short period in order to do this.

Switzerland, for instance, guards against this by mandating that you can only offer a job to a non-Swiss citizen if you pay the same as you would pay them, so there is no point in promoting such immigration over employing Swiss people - you would simply employ the best person for the job whether Swiss or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If someone isn’t working then they aren’t labour... the main issue isn’t people coming to countries to simply not work, or beg.

That has happened as a result of economic decline - I doubt anyone comes to the UK to beg, but they do end up begging if they lose their jobs and homes.

This is one reason I don't understand why people get up in arms about such people being offered tickets back to their home country if they want them. If I had no money at all, no passport etc I'd be basically stuck. Why would I not want assistance to return to friends and family who might help me?

 

[AlterEgo]

That has happened as a result of economic decline - I doubt anyone comes to the UK to beg, but they do end up begging if they lose their jobs and homes.

This is one reason I don't understand why people get up in arms about such people being offered tickets back to their home country if they want them. If I had no money at all, no passport etc I'd be basically stuck. Why would I not want assistance to return to friends and family who might help me?

There are organised gangs of Romanians who send vulnerable women and children on cheap flights specifically to beg. Here is just one example. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-47703718

Nonetheless that’s a trifling issue compared to the wage and expectation depression which occurs when you invite in people from countries with lower wages and lower expectations from life. Many people simply will not acknowledge this, and either gaslight or refuse to discuss it, which led to us having a toxic immigration debate up until 2016, which helped contribute to Brexit.

 

[AlterEgo]

You do know that within the EU, the UK has a perfect right to return any EU national who comes here, and after three months isn't working and can't support themselves?

I don’t know why you would make this point in response to my own response to someone who was making the same point you made. I think I was quite clear that people coming to not work, or beg, are a side issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where it becomes a possible issue is where that skews the market in favour of a diaspora who will come to the UK to work and send the money back home (so it doesn't circulate around the UK economy) and will typically take a lower wage and a very poor standard of living (cramming many in a house for instance) for a short period in order to do this.

Switzerland, for instance, guards against this by mandating that you can only offer a job to a non-Swiss citizen if you pay the same as you would pay them, so there is no point in promoting such immigration over employing Swiss people - you would simply employ the best person for the job whether Swiss or not.

Yes that's always struck as being less of a Freedom of Movement/Labour issue and more of a "we can't be bothered to ensure that companies and individuals aren't exploiting people by ensuring that they're paying a fair wage for the work offered and aren't turning a blind eye to the property they let that has two dozen people living in it".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes that's always struck as being less of a Freedom of Movement/Labour issue and more of a "we can't be bothered to ensure that companies and individuals aren't exploiting people by ensuring that they're paying a fair wage for the work offered and aren't turning a blind eye to the property they let that has two dozen people living in it".

Picking of stuff on East Anglian farms is a good example. If they can't get British workers, that's simply because they are not paying enough and/or not offering good enough conditions to get them. Pay more and offer better conditions and eventually you will get them.

 

[Howardh]

Picking of stuff on East Anglian farms is a good example. If they can't get British workers, that's simply because they are not paying enough and/or not offering good enough conditions to get them. Pay more and offer better conditions and eventually you will get them.

How much will the prices in shops go up if we have to pay workers more? More to the point, would consumers accept those price rises? If not, and the farmer can't sell his fruit/veg, then he goes out of business, we have to rely on imports even more, and if those imports attract tariffs the price in the shops goes up....
What will happen, of course, is that cheap EU labour (and it still should be minimum wage, not pennies) will be replaced by cheap labour from everywhere else but not eh UK.

 

[AlterEgo]

How much will the prices in shops go up if we have to pay workers more? More to the point, would consumers accept those price rises?

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.

Given that simply policing a problem is never enough to ensure that it goes away (think about things like CSE or drug crime), will anyone be bold enough to try and address the root cause?

Or will we simply shrug and say "hey, lower prices...what can you do?". Please don't tell me everyone's an ultra-liberal free marketeer now; it's only when it suits them.

 

[cactustwirly]

If someone isn’t working then they aren’t labour... the main issue isn’t people coming to countries to simply not work, or beg.

The EU does have entirely unrestricted freedom of labour.

But EU nationals cannot claim benefits in the UK until they've been here for 5 years, which effectively means that EU migrants have to support themselves.

 

[najaB]

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.

It's not free movement of labour that causes that, it's unscrupulous employers [taking advantage of free movement of labour].

I counter your example with mind: in my team at work (of thirty or so) seven are EU nationals simply because they are the best people we could find for the job, not because we're looking for cheap labour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not free movement of labour that causes that, it's unscrupulous employers [taking advantage of free movement of labour].

I counter your example with mind: in my team at work (of thirty or so) seven are EU nationals simply because they are the best people we could find for the job, not because we're looking for cheap labour.

In that case you wouldn't presumably have an issue with a Swiss style system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to immigrants.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.

Indeed. This is the precise thing that the Swiss system is intended to guard against. You can go and work there if you wish, but you cannot be underpaid. Therefore, the best candidate for the job is selected, not the cheapest one. With the system as it is, there is significant motivation to choose the cheapest candidate instead, or to choose two equally capable candidates, one UK and one not, based on the one that is cheapest.

 

[anme]

In that case you wouldn't presumably have an issue with a Swiss style system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to immigrants.

I would prefer a system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to anyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would prefer a system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to anyone.

Try Switzerland, again. There is no generalised minimum wage, but people are not underpaid. The result of this is that things involving human service tend to be quite costly - even with the rate where it should be, a meal out with one drink will be about £40 a head (but no need to tip, because the waiter is properly paid), and a basic haircut easily also £30-40. Maybe we should be paying those rates.

But I think you missed my point, which didn't relate to general UK wage levels but rather than immigrants should not get unfair advantage by undercutting those already resident in the UK, due to a willingness to live in conditions that we in this country have determined are not acceptable.

 

[anme]

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.

Given that simply policing a problem is never enough to ensure that it goes away (think about things like CSE or drug crime), will anyone be bold enough to try and address the root cause?

Or will we simply shrug and say "hey, lower prices...what can you do?". Please don't tell me everyone's an ultra-liberal free marketeer now; it's only when it suits them.

You completely miss the point about the free movement of labour. Modern slavery is a crime. Illegal homes of multiple occupation are - obviously - illegal. Ending your and my right to the free movement of labour will not solve these problems, because they are already illegal!

When something is a crime, making something else also a crime does not make the first thing more of a crime.

 

[anme]

Try Switzerland, again. There is no generalised minimum wage, but people are not underpaid. The result of this is that things involving human service tend to be quite costly - even with the rate where it should be, a meal out with one drink will be about £40 a head (but no need to tip, because the waiter is properly paid), and a basic haircut easily also £30-40. Maybe we should be paying those rates.

But I think you missed my point, which didn't relate to general UK wage levels but rather than immigrants should not get unfair advantage by undercutting those already resident in the UK, due to a willingness to live in conditions that we in this country have determined are not acceptable.

I am not sure what your point is. EU citizens enjoy the freedom to live and work in Switzerland. Swiss citizens enjoy the freedom to live and work in the EU. See https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html

Why do you want to take this freedom away from British people including me?

 

[najaB]

In that case you wouldn't presumably have an issue with a Swiss style system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to immigrants.

I would prefer a system that prevented the payment of poverty wages to anyone.

Agreed!

 

[cb a1]

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.

Given that simply policing a problem is never enough to ensure that it goes away (think about things like CSE or drug crime), will anyone be bold enough to try and address the root cause?

Or will we simply shrug and say "hey, lower prices...what can you do?". Please don't tell me everyone's an ultra-liberal free marketeer now; it's only when it suits them.

When I see 'let's be clear' starting a sentence, it's often anything but.

An analogy. There is no free movement of illegal drugs yet there are plenty of illegal drugs. If an employer is willing to employ someone illegally whilst we're in the EU, they're going to do exactly the same once we're out of the EU. I don't see how leaving the EU is going to make a jot of difference.

 

[AlterEgo]

But EU nationals cannot claim benefits in the UK until they've been here for 5 years, which effectively means that EU migrants have to support themselves.

That's not the issue - how many times do I have to mention this? Is this just a knee jerk response?

 

[AlterEgo]

When I see 'let's be clear' starting a sentence, it's often anything but.

An analogy. There is no free movement of illegal drugs yet there are plenty of illegal drugs. If an employer is willing to employ someone illegally whilst we're in the EU, they're going to do exactly the same once we're out of the EU. I don't see how leaving the EU is going to make a jot of difference.

That doesn't make a blind bit of sense. Bad people may be just as willing but there will be far less opportunity to do so. That's like saying there's no point stopping thieves from working in banks because those people will just steal money elsewhere.

You completely miss the point about the free movement of labour. Modern slavery is a crime. Illegal homes of multiple occupation are - obviously - illegal. Ending your and my right to the free movement of labour will not solve these problems, because they are already illegal!

When something is a crime, making something else also a crime does not make the first thing more of a crime.

What is the point then?

These are indeed all crimes but they are much, much easier to commit with a ready supply of potential victims. I refer you to the point above.

It's not free movement of labour that causes that, it's unscrupulous employers [taking advantage of free movement of labour].

I counter your example with mind: in my team at work (of thirty or so) seven are EU nationals simply because they are the best people we could find for the job, not because we're looking for cheap labour.

Do you pick vegetables?

Are you and your colleagues uneducated and vulnerable to exploitation? Are you and your colleagues uniquely disadvantaged from accessing justice and fair mediation? Do you and your colleagues all know what basic rights you can expect? Do you and your colleagues either live somewhere you call home or have ready access to funds and documents to go there if you really need to?

Indeed. This is the precise thing that the Swiss system is intended to guard against. You can go and work there if you wish, but you cannot be underpaid. Therefore, the best candidate for the job is selected, not the cheapest one. With the system as it is, there is significant motivation to choose the cheapest candidate instead, or to choose two equally capable candidates, one UK and one not, based on the one that is cheapest.

I'm glad that someone gets my drift.

 

[najaB]

Do you pick vegetables?

Are you and your colleagues uneducated and vulnerable to exploitation? Are you and your colleagues uniquely disadvantaged from accessing justice and fair mediation? Do you and your colleagues all know what basic rights you can expect? Do you and your colleagues either live somewhere you call home or have ready access to funds and documents to go there if you really need to?

All of the above can apply equally to UK nationals as EU nationals.

 

[anme]

These are indeed all crimes but they are much, much easier to commit with a ready supply of potential victims. I refer you to the point above.

Are you arguing that European people should not be allowed into the UK at all after brexit? Or that they will need visas and we will vet their financial circumstances and employment intentions in advance?

 

[anme]

I'm glad that someone gets my drift.

You understand that freedom of movement applies in Switzerland, right? https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html

 

[AlterEgo]

You really have to learn to explain yourself. Are you arguing that European people should not be allowed into the UK at all after brexit? Or that they will need visas and we will vet their financial circumstances and employment intentions in advance?

And please explain why you think it is justified to take away my right to live and work elsewhere in the EU.

My preference is that people who come here to work should be:

Taking employment which we cannot fill from the general population
Sponsored by employers if and where that is appropriate as per the occupation
On a visa which registers their presence here and where they work

This is exactly how it works for the vast majority of non-EU citizens who come and live and work here. The state should exercise a proper duty of care over people coming here to work and pay tax; knowing where people work and who they work for would eradicate much (but certainly not all) of the horrific abuse of some EU nationals who work here in precarious circumstances.

I would not vote to directly remove your right to freely live and work elsewhere without express permission, because that's not for me to do; your right to do that doesn't infringe on any of my rights or that of my countrymen. But I also won't be overly concerned if the EU says that, for you to live or work in a member state, you need to satisfy some minimum criteria in the future (which may be entirely reciprocal - don't take jobs which don't have a local shortage, for example)

All of the above can apply equally to UK nationals as EU nationals.

That's like responding to a post about how the vast majority of DV victims are women with "men can get hit too". It's true, but unhelpful, and wilfully missing the point.
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