EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Carlisle]

It's not free movement of labour that causes that, it's unscrupulous employers [taking advantage of free movement of labour].

I counter your example with mind: in my team at work (of thirty or so) seven are EU nationals simply because they are the best people we could find for the job, not because we're looking for cheap labour.

Completely agree, & consider that far a long time many uk industries & institutions have chosen to outsource lots of tasks almost entirely for the purpose of saving money on wages, benefits, pensions & administration etc, nothing to do with the EU or cheaper foreign labour or freedom of movement

 

[anme]

My preference is that people who come here to work should be:

Taking employment which we cannot fill from the general population
Sponsored by employers if and where that is appropriate as per the occupation
On a visa which registers their presence here and where they work

This is exactly how it works for the vast majority of non-EU citizens who come and live and work here. The state should exercise a proper duty of care over people coming here to work and pay tax; knowing where people work and who they work for would eradicate much (but certainly not all) of the horrific abuse of some EU nationals who work here in precarious circumstances.

Much of that is done in EU countries already. Most countries maintain a population register, including foreigners living there. The UK chooses not to do this with its population. Are you in favour of a population register in the UK, perhaps coupled with ID cards which enable people to quickly prove they are legally registered?

Please explain how removing freedom of movement will prevent abuse of EU nationals who work in the UK in precarious circumstances. Also, why don't you care about UK citizens and non-EU foreign nationals in the same way?

I would not vote to directly remove your right to freely live and work elsewhere without express permission, because that's not for me to do; your right to do that doesn't infringe on any of my rights or that of my countrymen.

Assuming you voted to leave the EU then you already have done. Perhaps you could pay me compensation?

 

[radamfi]

Assuming you voted to leave the EU then you already have done. Perhaps you could pay me compensation?

I know he sounds like a Brexiteer but he actually voted Remain! He's got Irish nationality so he's still got his EU citizenship and freedom of movement regardless.

 

[mmh]

As ever, the people who are most vocal about retaining Freedom of Movement of Labour are those who've made no use of the right while they've had it. I always find that slightly strange.

 

[anme]

As ever, the people who are most vocal about retaining Freedom of Movement of Labour are those who've made no use of the right while they've had it. I always find that slightly strange.

Please provide evidence for that statement. Why do you think any specific poster here has made no use of their right to freedom of movement?

 

[mmh]

Please provide evidence for that statement. Why do you think any specific poster here has made no use of their right to freedom of movement?

Because if some of them had we'd never have heard the end of it. Plus if people were currently abroad we'd have had reports of what impact leaving the EU is having on them, and we've had none.

 

[radamfi]

As ever, the people who are most vocal about retaining Freedom of Movement of Labour are those who've made no use of the right while they've had it. I always find that slightly strange.

Given that a significant proportion of people who want to take advantage of free movement want to use it for retirement, then it is entirely logical that they won't have used it yet, given that retirement usually comes towards the end of one's life!

 

[anme]

Because if some of them had we'd never have heard the end of it. Plus if people were currently abroad we'd have had reports of what impact leaving the EU is having on them, and we've had none.

What on earth are you talking about? How can you possibly know where people are? Tell me where I am writing this from right now.

The impact is clear. The right of British people to live and work elsewhere in the EU is being taken away from them by their fellow citizens. Use your imagination, logic and empathy to think what effect that has.

 

[cactustwirly]

As ever, the people who are most vocal about retaining Freedom of Movement of Labour are those who've made no use of the right while they've had it. I always find that slightly strange.

I have! I'm glad I'm working outside the UK, this will be much harder after Brexit.
Remember that a lot of ski and resort reps are from the UK, and they would need work visas after Brexit.

 

[cactustwirly]

That doesn't make a blind bit of sense. Bad people may be just as willing but there will be far less opportunity to do so. That's like saying there's no point stopping thieves from working in banks because those people will just steal money elsewhere.



What is the point then?

These are indeed all crimes but they are much, much easier to commit with a ready supply of potential victims. I refer you to the point above.




Do you pick vegetables?

Are you and your colleagues uneducated and vulnerable to exploitation? Are you and your colleagues uniquely disadvantaged from accessing justice and fair mediation? Do you and your colleagues all know what basic rights you can expect? Do you and your colleagues either live somewhere you call home or have ready access to funds and documents to go there if you really need to?



I'm glad that someone gets my drift.

That's got nothing to do with the EU! And everything to do with the UK not enforcing employment law!
I'm aware of a large company, that recently got fined in France for not recording working hours for their employees, therefore the authorities assumed the workers were being exploited.

I don't want to go into specifics on here but you get the picture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure what your point is. EU citizens enjoy the freedom to live and work in Switzerland. Swiss citizens enjoy the freedom to live and work in the EU. See https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html

Not without restrictions, including "minimum wages" in particular roles to prevent Swiss people being disadvantaged by lower wages for immigrants as has happened in the UK. I know this as I have worked in Switzerland on an L Permit and had to prove various things about income level based on role to get this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm glad that someone gets my drift.

I'm a Remainer on balance, FWIW, but I think those who blindly believe the EU is perfect are as bad as those who believe it is wholly evil.

I think one must recognise that even if one feels freedom of movement is overall beneficial (and I have certainly benefitted from it), that it does have flaws and cause some issues. Blindly ignoring those is as bad as blindly disliking immigration.

 

[mmh]

I have! I'm glad I'm working outside the UK, this will be much harder after Brexit.
Remember that a lot of ski and resort reps are from the UK, and they would need work visas after Brexit.

Oh, you'll have to fill in a form if you want to be a holiday rep. Not exactly a vote changer, that one.

 

[anme]

Not without restrictions, including "minimum wages" in particular roles to prevent Swiss people being disadvantaged by lower wages for immigrants as has happened in the UK.

Please provide evidence to back up your claim about the UK.

I am not against minimum wages to maintain living standards for all. Why has the UK government not implemented this?

 

[cactustwirly]

Oh, you'll have to fill in a form if you want to be a holiday rep. Not exactly a vote changer, that one.

Just an example, but you would need a Schengen work visa, which is a bit more than just a form

 

[anme]

Oh, you'll have to fill in a form if you want to be a holiday rep. Not exactly a vote changer, that one.

This is an idiotic post. What do you know about visa and work permit rules?

 

[mmh]

This is an idiotic post. What do you know about visa and work permit rules?

Considerably more than the average person, as it happens.

 

[anme]

Considerably more than the average person, as it happens.

Then you will be aware that work permits take a significant amount of effort to obtain, with no guarantee of success.

 

[anme]

I'm a Remainer on balance, FWIW, but I think those who blindly believe the EU is perfect are as bad as those who believe it is wholly evil.

Please explain who exactly has ever claimed the EU is perfect.

 

[mmh]

Then you will be aware that work permits take a significant amount of effort to obtain, with no guarantee of success.

They're as much effort to obtain as the country issuing them wants them to be. I happen to think there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[anme]

They're as much effort to obtain as the country issuing them wants them to be. I happen to think there's nothing wrong with that.

So to summarise - you are happy that many British people will have their lives made much more difficult, so the UK can make the lives of foreigners more difficult too.

Do you feel this will add anything to humanity?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please provide evidence to back up your claim about the UK.

This do?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729

The claim: Immigration has held down wages in the UK.

Reality Check verdict: Current research suggests there was a small, negative impact on the wages of low-skilled workers, which was outweighed by other factors such as the impact of the financial crisis and rises in the minimum wage.

 

[mmh]

So to summarise - you are happy that many British people will have their lives made much more difficult, so the UK can make the lives of foreigners more difficult too.

Do you feel this will add anything to humanity?

I don't accept that "many British people will have their lives made much more difficult," the vast majority of British people have never made use of their right to work in another EU country. And for those who will in future, whether the process is "much more difficult" or not will be in the control of the destination country and/or the EU. I've deliberately said process there, not life. Neither is my opinion that Freedom of Movement of Labour has multiple negative effects have anything in the slightest with a desire to make the lives of foreigners more difficult.

 

[najaB]

I don't accept that "many British people will have their lives made much more difficult," the vast majority of British people have never made use of their right to work in another EU country.

Exactly how does "the vast majority" make "many people" an invalid proposition?

 

[mmh]

Exactly how does "the vast majority" make "many people" an invalid proposition?

Nice selective quoting, well done.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm a Remainer on balance, FWIW, but I think those who blindly believe the EU is perfect are as bad as those who believe it is wholly evil.

I think one must recognise that even if one feels freedom of movement is overall beneficial (and I have certainly benefitted from it), that it does have flaws and cause some issues. Blindly ignoring those is as bad as blindly disliking immigration.

I'm not sure anyone is claiming the EU is perfect, an organisation of so many countries will always have its problems. But at least some of the problems caused in this country by freedom of movement are our own. We have chosen not to have our legal framework fully protect all workers in this country from exploitation, low wages, below par housing and all the other trimmings that come with a society driven by profit over quality, which I am sorry to say is exactly what drives a lot of businesses in the UK. We cannot blame the EU's issues for that, because we could, if we wanted to be a bit more like Switzerland.

 

[bahnause]

Not without restrictions, including "minimum wages" in particular roles to prevent Swiss people being disadvantaged by lower wages for immigrants as has happened in the UK. I know this as I have worked in Switzerland on an L Permit and had to prove various things about income level based on role to get this.

You don't need a job do get a L Permit. The only reason you need a permit at all in Switzerland ist to make sure, no one enters the country as a tourist and starts working. Once you have your permit, you are allowed to change jobs as much as you want. You'll even get a permit without a contract if you are able to show the existence of an effective self-employed activity.

Employment law however applies to all workers in Switzerland. I wouldn't call this a restriction as such. But it makes hiring people from abroad as cheaper workforce much more unlikely. But to my understanding, the same applies to the rest of the EU and the UK, but it seems (at least for the UK) that employment law isn't really enforced. This however is hardly the EUs fault.

 

[Howardh]

Let's be clear on something - unfettered free movement of labour results in a large number of people (mostly from the former Eastern bloc) living in horrendous conditions, often in illegal homes in multiple occupation. Of them, quite a number become victims of modern slavery or live on the periphery of becoming such. Few of them can avail of worker's rights. They live terrible, precarious existences. This happens here, in this country, and is a problem caused by the free movement of labour that many people champion.
.

If you know about that, then report it. As you say it's illegal, therefore the authorities must be informed. That's not the fault of the EU or freedom of movement.
If this work is "hidden" and "under the radar" then it will still be hidden and under the radar when free movement ends so workers seeking these jobs/wages/conditions will come in via the Irish/UK border and find their way onto the fields and car-washes that way etc.
And would you agree there are plenty of non-EU's working in slave-like conditions in the back of curry houses and scrap yards?
So we still have the same problem, but we have lost OUR freedom of movement.

 

[Howardh]

As ever, the people who are most vocal about retaining Freedom of Movement of Labour are those who've made no use of the right while they've had it. I always find that slightly strange.

I did.
Not only that, I was looking forward to using it on retirement when I stop being a carer and start being a pensioner.
You've taken that away from me.

 

[mmh]

But to my understanding, the same applies to the rest of the EU and the UK, but it seems (at least for the UK) that employment law isn't really enforced

The concern in the UK isn't so much about people being employed illegally and employment law being flouted (though of course that does happen, including by employers employing EU citizens who are here perfectly legally and entitled to work "above board"), but about wage suppression. Our legal minimum wage effectively becomes the maximum wage for many jobs. Wage suppression also happens in jobs above the minimum wage level due to an increase in the workforce prepared to work for a lower wage.