EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[SHD]

Politics and Compromise are two words that are worlds apart and have been for a few years. This action from the PM has been on the cards since he became PM and is because of the reaction of those who want to stop Brexit at all costs (including via the blocking of No Deal route). All of this is undemocratic from both sides and it is all way past the point of ridiculous now from both sides

I do not want to sound hyperbolic but this has the potential to trigger a constitutional crisis of massive proportions, on an issue much more serious than the desire of a monarch to perform sexual intercourse with an American demi-mondaine of dubious politics

 

[Geezertronic]

So we have reached a point where Parliament is seen as undemocratic. Jesus. This is the edge of the abyss.

And that is the issue. Yesterdays news was seen as undemocratic, todays news is seen as undemocratic, I am sure tomorrows news will equally be seen as undemocratic whatever that brings

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not want to sound hyperbolic but this has the potential to trigger a constitutional crisis of massive proportions, on an issue much more serious than the desire of a monarch to perform sexual intercourse with an American demi-mondaine of dubious politics

This could viably trigger civil war (I do hope not as that would be to nobody's benefit), and in a country not as reserved as ours it would probably already have started.

 

[DarloRich]

And that is the issue. Yesterdays news was seen as undemocratic, todays news is seen as undemocratic, I am sure tomorrows news will equally be seen as undemocratic whatever that brings

but is IS undemocratic to cancel Parliament at, essentially, a time of national emergency because the PM cant get his crazy no deal wet dream through the house. This might be a standard piece of government business designed to move parliament to a new session. The application of this procedure at this time is completely wrong.

It is completely wrong and anyone who cant or wont see that wants their head looking at.

This could viably trigger civil war (I do hope not as that would be to nobody's benefit), and in a country not as reserved as ours it would probably already have started.

we are British., Can we try and keep calm.

What we need to do is make sure De Piffle and his disaster capitalist Tory chums are punished at the forthcoming election. That they hold us and our democracy in contempt should be apparent after today.

 

[Howardh]

There are people who state they have never protested, yet alone rioted, tweeting the BBC saying that they would "take to the streets". Not sure that means carrying a "Down With This Sort Of Thing" placard or a molotov cocktail. As far as I feel, I've nothing to lose now, what with my dickie heart, failing eyesight, my freedoms being stolen away from me, what's to lose??

 

[anme]

And that is the issue. Yesterdays news was seen as undemocratic, todays news is seen as undemocratic, I am sure tomorrows news will equally be seen as undemocratic whatever that brings

This is an enigmatic post. Are you arguing in favour or against the government's actions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is an enigmatic post. Are you arguing in favour or against the government's actions?

Essentially the thing that was undemocratic was the poorly-conceived referendum in the first place, as well as the dirtiest pair of campaigns I have ever, ever known.

 

[Bantamzen]

If this happens, remember the day. It will be the day when the democratic institution that is Parliament was shut down, and the role of UK Prime Minister became UK Banana Republic El Presidente. Some (by no means all) Brexiteers will welcome this, citing "the will of the people", the only problem being it isn't. Few if any voters wanted a chaotic, rudderless crash out of the EU, fewer still wanted such a dangerous precedent be set. Opposition planning to contest an upcoming plan? Simple, shut down Parliament and do it any way.

The CONservatives are becoming increasingly bold, reckless and unhinged, bolstered both by a useless opposition, and an even more reckless and unhinged El Presidente sitting over the pond offering rainbows and unicorns. I see troubled, difficult times ahead, and for what? Some bloody half-baked vanity project.

What a time to be alive, not...

 

[najaB]

This action from the PM has been on the cards since he became PM and is because of the reaction of those who want to stop Brexit at all costs (including via the blocking of No Deal route).

I don't doubt that there are some political beings who want to stop Brexit at any cost, but they, like the leave at any cost crowd, are at the fringes.

The largest single group supports a managed exit - if we are leaving that is the least damaging option for the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The largest single group supports a managed exit - if we are leaving that is the least damaging option for the country.

Yes, much as I am not in support of leaving this does seem to be the option that actually does have a democratic mandate, albeit a very narrow one.

 

[anme]

The largest single group supports a managed exit - if we are leaving that is the least damaging option for the country.

I don't know if that is true - do you have some evidence? Even assuming it is, what is a "managed exit" and how do we get to there? Parliament has rejected the current withdrawal agreement three times and voted against, I believe, all 12 other proposals brought forward.

 

[SHD]

Essentially the thing that was undemocratic was the poorly-conceived referendum in the first place, as well as the dirtiest pair of campaigns I have ever, ever known.

I do not know if there was/still is something similar in the UK, but in the 1980s - 1990s we had certain mail-order schemes in France where you would accept a rather nice-looking initial shipment for the equivalent of £1 (e.g. a model locomotive, or a bottle of wine), not realising you'd been signing up to something that would have been excellent Monty Python material, whereby you'd be essentially forced to accept (and pay for) endless shipments.

The repeated mantra that the "2016 result" must be respected makes me think of this.

- the British people order a product in June 2016
- the following day, the promised product is delivered: Britain will leave the EU! Wow, that was easy and fast!
- then the troubles begin. The product does not work properly. Several vendors offer various aftersale solutions.
- an aftersale solution is found, which involves fitting humongously complicated bits and parts to the product
- many people think "but this is not what I ordered in 2016, can I get a new look at the options?"
- other people want to send the product back and chalk the cost up to experience
- At the store's Board of directors meeting, no-one takes a decision
- but the new vendor-in-chief and his assistants keep insisting that the product WAS ordered in 2016 and that NO further change is possible

 

[najaB]

I don't know if that is true - do you have some evidence?

If you look at the outcome of the votes (including that no deal Brexit was explicitly rejected), it's clear that the majority want some kind of deal.

Parliament has rejected the current withdrawal agreement three times and voted against, I believe, all 12 other proposals brought forward.

The devil is in the details of what that deal actually looks like.

 

[edwin_m]

"The doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters - they are going to get it wrong again.
[...]
Everyone knows the values that flag represents.

It stands for freedom and free speech and habeas corpus and the rule of law, and above all it stands for democracy.

And that is why we will come out of the EU on October 31.

Because in the end, Brexit was a fundamental decision by the British people that they wanted their laws made by people that they can elect and they can remove from office."

Is it not much easier for the British people when the removal from office is decided by the Prime Minister? Saves much hassle. Like Direct Debit, but for politicians.

But our Parliament is opposed to no deal. The Parliament was elected on a manifesto of seeking a deal within certain red lines. That manifesto was rejected by a majority of voters resulting in no party having an overall majority.

According to surveys a majority of the public is now in favour of remaining and an overwhelming majority is opposed to leaving with no deal.

The prime minister who by his actions is preciptiating no deal was not elected by the public, but by a small number of Tory members most of whom probably didn't even vote for their own party at the most recent opportunity.

The only democratic way out of this is to ask the public to decide again now we are in reasonably full possession of the facts.

As to progrogation, I hope the Queen has requested a nice warm corner cell in the Tower to be prepared for when Boris calls on her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what is clear is that we need a written constitution. Most of the way the UK works is based on convention, and this has clearly not worked in such pressing circumstances.

 

[DarloRich]

The largest single group supports a managed exit - if we are leaving that is the least damaging option for the country.

agreed. If we have to leave lets try to do it a way that isnt completely suicidal!

 

[smtglasgow]

Proroguing Parliament looks awful – and modern politics is all about optics. But, if this scares/disgusts enough moderate Tories in the south into voting LibDem, and helps Labour secure some of their vulnerable heartlands AND the SNP do as well as most of us up here think they will do, then it becomes possible to see an electoral route to stopping this mess. The thing that keeps me awake at night is the fear of a divided opposition allowing a Brexit landslide – I reckon that today’s antics might make this a little less likely. And that’s before we get on to Scottish independence – the real change in support in the last poll was from middle class remain voters (and there are a lot of them in Scotland) switching from no to yes. That doesn’t bode well for the Union.

 

[whhistle]

The problem is, our MPs cannot agree on a deal.
What one MP wants, the other does not and neither will back down.

Leaving without a deal will force the UK to work out deals afterwards.
Not ideal but we could have extensions for the next 10 years and it still won't happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've posted elsewhere, I now believe an independent Scotland (in the EU) and Irish reunification under the Republic is certain within 10 years. Possibly quite a bit sooner.

Nice one, Bozza.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Boris Johnson is a cool, calculating piece of ******** ( insert your preferred adjective) but can you blame him ?

He's banking on the continued lead in the polls by the Tories and winning an early election.

 

[smtglasgow]

Tbh, the only party that can win a majority in my opinion is the Tories, and they can only do that by neutralising the Brexit Party and crushing Labour. In the right circumstances that might happen, but I feel they’ve shot themselves in the foot with today’s antics. Their core vote will love it; everyone else, less so.

Labour can’t win a majority under Corbyn, he’s too toxic, but a rainbow alliance can be assembled to stop No Deal. It would be messy and would require another election after the crisis passes (although haven’t we been in crisis for nearly 3 and half years?)

 

[najaB]

He's banking on the continued lead in the polls by the Tories and winning an early election.

Yeah, that plan really worked for Teresa May.

 

[krus_aragon]

Which would technically be a première in Britain (from memory, the last coup recorded was more bloody than well done)

1688?

As for today's new plan, there is an argument that the prorogation stacks almost exactly with the planned recess for party conferences, just trimming a further four sitting days off the calendar. But prorogation also cleans the legislative tale, so anything that was in-progress (e.g. second reading) would be cancelled, and it's promoters would have to start again, after the Queen's Speech half-way through October. And more than anything, doing this isn't likely to look good to the general public.

Curiously, this prorogation could allow the existing Withdrawal Agreement to be put before Parliament again. I'm not offering odds on that, though...

 

[anme]

If you look at the outcome of the votes (including that no deal Brexit was explicitly rejected), it's clear that the majority want some kind of deal.

Which votes are you talking about? I don't remember having a vote on what kind of brexit I want.

The devil is in the details of what that deal actually looks like.

It's all very well saying people want a "managed exit", but that's meaningless unless an acceptable proposal for a managed exit is on the table.

 

[Howardh]

I've contacted an Euro MP suggesting she goes directly to the EU leaders and make sure that we can "return" on the same conditions as we have now should there be a November election. Clearly Boris thinks the Brexit party would split the Tory vote, so having left deal-less ends that prospect. The whole of the country has to tactically vote against the elites by whatever means it can, Liberals voting Labour, Labour voting SNP (even if they are against Scots Indy) and so on to get these sharks out, and back in the EU.

 

[najaB]

As for today's new plan, there is an argument that the prorogation stacks almost exactly with the planned recess for party conferences, just trimming a further four sitting days off the calendar.

There is, of course, a huge difference between a recess (for party conferences) and a prorogation.

 

[najaB]

Which votes are you talking about? I don't remember having a vote on what kind of brexit I want.

The parliamentary votes.

 

[anme]

Boris Johnson is a cool, calculating piece of ******** ( insert your preferred adjective) but can you blame him ?

He's banking on the continued lead in the polls by the Tories and winning an early election.

Yes I can blame him. Can't you?

 

[anme]

The parliamentary votes.

OK, so why didn't MPs vote for a managed exit when they had the chance - not just Theresa May's managed exit, but one of the 12 other options put to them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, so why didn't MPs vote for a managed exit when they had the chance - not just Theresa May's managed exit, but one of the 12 other options put to them?

One flaw in that process was that each one was a yes/no so there's no concept of "least worst". There could do with being scope for "you have to pick one of these".