EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

I agree. I would find that (basically a Switzerland/Norway like arrangement) an acceptable compromise outcome. In some ways I might prefer it to membership, and the possibility of such an outcome might well have caused me to vote Leave (though I feared the kind of mess that did happen, which meant I voted Remain).

It is my view that the EU should never have gone past being the EEC i.e. a trading bloc, all things considered.

The EU has given us a lot of valuable stuff, such as consumer rights (ie airlines), EHIC, courts to appeal to etc. We could leave but still keep all of those things; what benefit is it to a Brexiter that we lose the EHIC, for example?

 

[mmh]

the timing is completely inappropriate. If you cant see that.......................

This page lists the recess dates for the House of Commons for the current session. This is a two year session. It started with the State Opening on 21 June 2017 and is expected to run until summer 2019.

From https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-commons-faqs/business-faq-page/recess-dates/

So it was already expected.

"If the stories are true that the government is delaying the Queen's Speech again, this will he the longest parliamentary session in the modern era."

- Chris Bryant MP, on 29th April. https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1122824677175570434

 

[DarloRich]

From https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-commons-faqs/business-faq-page/recess-dates/

So it was already expected.



- Chris Bryant MP, on 29th April. https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1122824677175570434

and? I have no problem with prorogation after 31st October. In fact the argument used by Boris and his army of slimy dull drones (IDS/Gover etc) this lunchtime to try and spin this decision as some kind of clean page exercise would hold more water then! If you cant see this for what it is you really need to go for a lie down.

I maintain: The timing of this decision is completely inappropriate and is designed to reduce parliamentary scrutiny and debate of a no deal brexit

 

[najaB]

So it was already expected.

Again, recess is not prorogation! MPs can be called back from recess if needs be.

 

[anme]

A couple of pages back there was a bit of discussion on what Remainers might not like about the EU. One of those things is probably the extremely long time it is likely to take to re-admit a leaving member, even if Boris doesn't manage to get us out of alignment with EU rules and standards before he meets the fate he so richly deserves. There's also the tricky question of whether the UK would resume its various rebates and opt-outs. Together with a likely attitude in some countries not to want anything more to do with the troublesome Brits, I'd say the process of re-joining would be slow and painful.

That might be true, but we could probably rejoin the single market and customs union, and get freedom of movement and so on more easily. A kind of super-Norwegian approach would get us many of the benefits of membership.

It's not as good as full membership, of course, but blame the leave voters for that.

 

[mmh]

Labour would win a landslide if they had a Blairite style (minus the wars) leader rather than Corbyn. Corbyn is all very well (and I do agree with quite a few of his policies, and on balance would vote for Labour under him myself) but he's too far left to win an election.

I have voted for Labour with him as leader, and voted for him (twice) to be leader. I don't think I would do either again (well, I don't get a vote in Labour leadership elections any more anyway) though.

For Labour to win a landslide they'd need to overcome two hurdles, Scotland and Brexit. They should easily win countless marginal constituencies by this stage, but I'm not convinced they would. Brexit has caused them a huge fundamental problem - despite the party membership being reportedly strongly pro-EU, their voters aren't. Most Labour-held areas voted Leave, particularly in their heartlands. They need to win marginals off the Tories, but those areas are even more likely to have voted Leave.

For example, they "should" win Aberconwy. A Leave voting area with a pro-EU Tory MP with a small majority. I doubt they will though. (I don't know which constituency Bletchley falls in, but interestingly it looks like the Milton Keynes constituencies are similar - these are the areas Labour would need to win)

 

[mmh]

Again, recess is not prorogation! MPs can be called back from recess if needs be.

Who said it was? I was merely using a page which happens to be a list of recess dates as it has the start date of the session, and the "session is expected to end" statement which I was quoting.

 

[krus_aragon]

From https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-commons-faqs/business-faq-page/recess-dates/

So it was already expected.



- Chris Bryant MP, on 29th April. https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1122824677175570434

I'll agree that it was already overdue, but it doesn't seem to have been expected by many: early reports on the BBC (in articles that have since been rewritten and expanded) suggest that very few people in Westminster knew about the timing.

I understand only a tiny handful of Cabinet ministers knew about this move, they were going to be briefed after the privy council later

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1166623550595354624

Fair enough, Parliament went on summer recess a day after the Prime Minister was elected, so he hasn't had the opportunity to do the proroguement over the summer. But neither was there any signposting that he'd do so before the end of October (unless you count Dominic Cummings crowing that it was too late to stop no-deal a month ago). So he shouldn't be shocked to find a lot of people surprised about the timing.

The timing is still unhelpful to a lot of Parliamentarians, but allows the Government enough time to do what they want done over the next two months.

I struggle to see why the Prime Minister finds it so important to have a Queen's Speech before the EU Council Meeting in October, when it still won't be known whether he's managed to reach a deal with the EU yet.

 

[mmh]

and? I have no problem with prorogation after 31st October. In fact the argument used by Boris and his army of slimy dull drones (IDS/Gover etc) this lunchtime to try and spin this decision as some kind of clean page exercise would hold more water then! If you cant see this for what it is you really need to go for a lie down.

It's not me who's getting so aeriated!

Smooth editing by the way - I did notice you adding your "not until October 31st" caveat after I'd replied, but very professional.

 

[krus_aragon]

But neither was there any signposting that he'd do so before the end of October (unless you count Dominic Cummings crowing that it was too late to stop no-deal a month ago).

It seems that Baroness Chakrabati disagrees with me; she says (on 5live): "They've been telegraphing their plan all summer. You'll remember that during the Tory leadership campaign, Dominic Raab, who's now the foreign secretary, said that one way to deal with a difficult Parliament would be to prorogue it, to shut it down. Boris Johnson refused to rule that out."

Fair enough, she's closer to the action than I am.

 

[DarloRich]

It's not me who's getting so aeriated!

Smooth editing by the way - I did notice you adding your "not until October 31st" caveat after I'd replied, but very professional.

Eh? Editing? I am bit confused.

I have no problem with the mechanism used. It is the constitutionally accepted procedure for ending the term of a parliament and entirely proper. What IS a problem is the timing, which in my view is being used to reduce the opportunity for scrutiny of a proposed no deal Brexit.

It is also worth noting that the length of the prorogation is longer than usual. I wonder why? It is also is a very odd way of demonstrating parliamentary sovereignty!

 

[krus_aragon]

For example, they "should" win Aberconwy. A Leave voting area with a pro-EU Tory MP with a small majority. I doubt they will though.

A Tory MP that has already said he'd be willing to back a Corbyn caretaker Government, as it happens (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ment-block-no-deal-brexit-boris-a9061261.html)

 

[Esker-pades]

The problem is, our MPs cannot agree on a deal.
What one MP wants, the other does not and neither will back down.

Leaving without a deal will force the UK to work out deals afterwards.
Not ideal but we could have extensions for the next 10 years and it still won't happen.

I agree with the first part, not the second. It's like seeing a man getting kicked, and then shooting them in the same place on the grounds that that will get the paramedics to work harder.

The way I would do it is to suspend article 50 until the UK can work out what on earth it actually wants from Brexit. Whether that's parliamentary debates, or a referendum based on a Single Transferrable Vote with various realistic leave options and remain. Given how the former hasn't worked, I am inclined to the latter.

How do you solve that problem?

Seriously - we need solutions we can use now, not going over old history.

(See above.)

 

[ainsworth74]

and? I have no problem with prorogation after 31st October. In fact the argument used by Boris and his army of slimy dull drones (IDS/Gover etc) this lunchtime to try and spin this decision as some kind of clean page exercise would hold more water then! If you cant see this for what it is you really need to go for a lie down.

Yes and if it does have to be before 31 October (and fair enough I can see the appeal of the "fresh slate" and what have you) why on earth does it have to be the best part of a month long? Unless you're wanting to take as much time out of Parliament as you think you can get away with...

 

[Struner]

I don't mind leaving as long as there's a middle way (ie EEA) so we can keep our rights, movement, EHIC etc but don't have to pay in so much, and we can use the balance on public services (although in the great scheme of things it won't go far). If on referendum day, that was the plan, and put in law, I may have voted for it.

I agree. I would find that (basically a Switzerland/Norway like arrangement) an acceptable compromise outcome. In some ways I might prefer it to membership, and the possibility of such an outcome might well have caused me to vote Leave (though I feared the kind of mess that did happen, which meant I voted Remain).

It is my view that the EU should never have gone past being the EEC i.e. a trading bloc, all things considered.

I'm sure the two of you are aware what that's called on the EU-side.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

.............and just as Brexit was becoming boring, Boris found a way of perking things up; once again I'm glued to The Guardian on-line !

I'll get my anorak................ !

 

[Struner]

Yes! Switch on Alerts for this story

 

[DarloRich]

Yes and if it does have to be before 31 October (and fair enough I can see the appeal of the "fresh slate" and what have you) why on earth does it have to be the best part of a month long? Unless you're wanting to take as much time out of Parliament as you think you can get away with...

this is terribly cynical. I wont have it. Are you suggesting Boris might be a bit dodge? Boris?

 

[edwin_m]

That might be true, but we could probably rejoin the single market and customs union, and get freedom of movement and so on more easily. A kind of super-Norwegian approach would get us many of the benefits of membership.

It's not as good as full membership, of course, but blame the leave voters for that.

That was one of the versions of a withdrawal agreement that would have been entirely possible except that it breached May's red lines - and it would have involved making continuing payments to the EU budget that might have put a lot of people off supporting it.

 

[anme]

That was one of the versions of a withdrawal agreement that would have been entirely possible except that it breached May's red lines - and it would have involved making continuing payments to the EU budget that might have put a lot of people off supporting it.

May's red lines were stupid. She could have changed them. Johnson can change them now. Or they can be changed by a future government.

Being a member of the single market would require contributing to the running of the single market. I don't see that will be a problem.

 

[mmh]

Yes and if it does have to be before 31 October (and fair enough I can see the appeal of the "fresh slate" and what have you) why on earth does it have to be the best part of a month long? Unless you're wanting to take as much time out of Parliament as you think you can get away with...

From https://www.iaindale.com/articles/c...ion-is-not-the-end-of-democracy-as-we-know-it

So does this move mean that Parliament will not be able to influence what happens? No. As Downing Street is pointing out, all this means is that three days of Parliamentary sittings will be lost in the week after the party conferences. Let me just repeat that - three days 8, 9 and 10 of October. ...

If the Government were committing as The Speaker has just said "a constitutional outrage", they would be proroguing Parliament until November 1. If that happened there really would be grounds for complaint. It isn't, so there really aren't.

What amuses me greatly in this debate are the howls of outrage from Remainers in all parties who think it is disgraceful that the government is using parliamentary means to give effect to its policies, and yet they are quite happy themselves to use those very same means to thwart them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you might suppose.

 

[edwin_m]

May's red lines were stupid. She could have changed them. Johnson can change them now. Or they can be changed by a future government.

Being a member of the single market would require contributing to the running of the single market. I don't see that will be a problem.

There are plenty of Brexiters who might have accepted that if proposed at the beginning, and indeed said as much in 2016, but since then have adopted an attitude of always wanting more than what is on offer. To the extent that any interaction with the EU now seems like anathema to them.

 

[DarloRich]

From https://www.iaindale.com/articles/c...ion-is-not-the-end-of-democracy-as-we-know-it

Such touching naivety. Debate and scrutiny is being curtailed no matter how you dress this up. There was talk of the suspension for conference season being reduced to allow MORE time for debate on Brexit but now you seem to support less time.

I wonder why you are keen to support less time for debate and scrutiny of an issue of national importance?

 

[anme]

There are plenty of Brexiters who might have accepted that if proposed at the beginning, and indeed said as much in 2016, but since then have adopted an attitude of always wanting more than what is on offer. To the extent that any interaction with the EU now seems like anathema to them.

Well, maybe this is a good thing. By allowing themselves to be pushed into ever more insane positions, the brexiters are destroying their own project.

Is the UK more likely to be a fully integrated member of the EU in, say, 15 years' time, after a properly-thought-out-and-slowly-and-carefully-implemented brexit, or after a bat-s**t-crazy-destroy-everything-and-throw-ourselves-at-trump brexit?

 

[mmh]

There are plenty of Brexiters who might have accepted that if proposed at the beginning, and indeed said as much in 2016, but since then have adopted an attitude of always wanting more than what is on offer. To the extent that any interaction with the EU now seems like anathema to them.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Attitudes have definitely hardened since pre-referendum, on both sides. Probably inevitable after three years of non-stop Brexit - everyone just wants it to be over, and yes I think the majority of Leavers would now say they just want nothing to do with anything of the EU ever again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Attitudes have definitely hardened since pre-referendum, on both sides. Probably inevitable after three years of non-stop Brexit - everyone just wants it to be over, and yes I think the majority of Leavers would now say they just want nothing to do with anything of the EU ever again.

I think mostly Brexiteers are blaming the EU for the mess, and Remainers blaming the UK - both quite harshly.

 

[Mag_seven]

Where's David Cameron? He is responsible for this mess with his bloody referendum.

 

[mmh]

Such touching naivety. Debate and scrutiny is being curtailed no matter how you dress this up. There was talk of the suspension for conference season being reduced to allow MORE time for debate on Brexit but now you seem to support less time.

Such condescending sneering! Amusing you use the word "scrutiny", from a quote in the article you've scorned without reading:

Unfortunately, Parliamentary scrutiny has become a para-phrase for actually blocking to leave the EU.

I wonder why you are keen to support less time for debate and scrutiny of an issue of national importance?

What were you expecting MPs to do on those 3 days? The magical Vote Of No Confidence? Install the Government Of National Unity? The People's Parliament? It's all nonsense and yes, people are heartily sick of it.

 

[anme]

What were you expecting MPs to do on those 3 days? The magical Vote Of No Confidence? Install the Government Of National Unity? The People's Parliament? It's all nonsense and yes, people are heartily sick of it.

Which people? I for one am enjoying it immensely. I hope it never stops.

 

[Struner]

Which people? I for one an enjoying it immensely. I hope it never stops.

lol