EWR, Universal and Wixams

[richieb1971]

Which trains are ram packed approaching wixams, from which direction and at what time? and how does that compare to the expected flows to / from the park?




Where has anyone said that, can you quote it please?

Not quoting anything. Whenever I raise concerns I get pushback stating that because other parks have no train/rail footfall that this one won't either.

Thameslink seems to be covered pretty well, because in my estimation most footfall will arrive from the south at times of the day commuters are going the other. So its a win win for Thameslink.
I am concerned about train lengths for EWR that doesn't actually operate yet, so that can be pre emptied before it starts running.
My main concern is with EMR at this time. From the north, 3 trains currently to get to Wixams. Although I feel this will change. But seating capacity from the north seems to be short in supply even today as I type.

The WCML and ECML are better able to handle this park at the current time, but I feel the MML needs a bit of thinking through. Obviously early days.

"Energy's" post just above yours gives a very detailed response that sort of gives the impresson my concerns are being addressed. But as usual some of the details aren't fleshed out. But early days it is.

Local concerns (which you'll know better than me!) appear to be more related to infrastructure than the park itself.

Thanks for all that info. My concerns are that traffic jams are horrendous roughly where the B530 meets the A6 which is also where the Marston Vale line cross the MML. You have 2 major intersections either side of the Marston Vale bridge which backs up about half a mile in each direction on occasion. This location is about 1 mile from the park. If the slip lanes for the A421 fail, you have a potential perfect storm. The A421 is the ambulance services access to many parts of the shire as well.

The retail park on the B530 is also a massive hot spot since Bedford Towns high street is pretty much non existant these days. This is full of traffic entering for purposes of Costa Coffee's, KFC, Burger King and Mcdonalds which are all resident. It has 3 car dealerships I believe and a Marks and Spencers express, B+Q is there as well and many sports shops and clothes shops. Car park is heaving all day long as if people have money to burn.


What did you mean by EMR putting pressure on Siemens for more 12 car units? I thought the 360's were hand me downs from another operator.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whenever I raise concerns I get pushback stating that because other parks have no train/rail footfall that this one won't either.

But again, no-one has said that. You’re imagining it. No one has said this park won’t have people arriving by train.

What has been said, both before and after the latest consultation by universal is:

Most people will arrive by road (note that does not mean that all who arrive by road are in cars)
A sizeable minority will arrive by rail, either via Wixams or the new station on EWR
Both Thameslink and EWR have, or are expected to have, plenty of spare capacity in the directions and times the park will see the busiest flows.
The park will almost certainly end up paying for fast line platforms at Wixams, and the new station on EWR - partly as a requirement through the planning process, and partly because it is in their financial interest to do so.

… but this is all subject to plannning, and several years away from even starting construction let alone opening, and therefore things could change.


For what it’s worth I think the chances of EMR calling any of their Sheffield / Nottingham services at Wixams is remote. The park will have around half the visitors of Luton airport, with similar rail market share, and EMR don’t call the longer distance services there. As we know from other threads, these flows are sensitive to journey time, and outting an extra 4-5 mins to serve what will be, frankly, a small number of people from these places will cause revenue loss on the main flows to London.

My guess is calls on the Corbys.

 

[baz962]

Slow would not be the word. Glacial would be more accurate. A National Express coach would be quicker.

But again, no-one has said that. You’re imagining it. No one has said this park won’t have people arriving by train.

What has been said, both before and after the latest consultation by universal is:

Most people will arrive by road (note that does not mean that all who arrive by road are in cars)
A sizeable minority will arrive by rail, either via Wixams or the new station on EWR
Both Thameslink and EWR have, or are expected to have, plenty of spare capacity in the directions and times the park will see the busiest flows.
The park will almost certainly end up paying for fast line platforms at Wixams, and the new station on EWR - partly as a requirement through the planning process, and partly because it is in their financial interest to do so.

… but this is all subject to plannning, and several years away from even starting construction let alone opening, and therefore things could change.


For what it’s worth I think the chances of EMR calling any of their Sheffield / Nottingham services at Wixams is remote. The park will have around half the visitors of Luton airport, with similar rail market share, and EMR don’t call the longer distance services there. As we know from other threads, these flows are sensitive to journey time, and outting an extra 4-5 mins to serve what will be, frankly, a small number of people from these places will cause revenue loss on the main flows to London.

My guess is calls on the Corbys.

They stop some of the ic at Luton airport parkway. Not a lot admittedly.

 

[Bald Rick]

They stop some of the ic at Luton airport parkway. Not a lot admittedly.

A total of three, at the very beginning or end of the day M-F, none on Sat, and on Sunday mornings before the Corbys arent running.

 

[Energy]

Not quoting anything. Whenever I raise concerns I get pushback stating that because other parks have no train/rail footfall that this one won't either.

But again, no-one has said that. You’re imagining it. No one has said this park won’t have people arriving by train.

Not on here but I have noticed some pushback from rollercoaster-enthusiast forums. For some people, rail doesn't work for them, and they don't see that there are plenty for whom rail would work excellently. I'd disregard this viewpoint and leave transport share to the professionals from Universal's plans.

I am concerned about train lengths for EWR that doesn't actually operate yet, so that can be pre emptied before it starts running.

106m operational length (enough for 4x24m) at opening and all new platforms for 202m operational length. [source]

But as usual some of the details aren't fleshed out. But early days it is.

Universal will be playing their cards carefully, once they announce something publically it's very difficult to retract it. The 2 new stations, Manor Rd upgrades and A421 sliproads will be almost definite if the park goes ahead.

Thanks for all that info. My concerns are that traffic jams are horrendous roughly where the B530 meets the A6 which is also where the Marston Vale line cross the MML. You have 2 major intersections either side of the Marston Vale bridge which backs up about half a mile in each direction on occasion.

This does look congested and without an easy fix, having already been converted from a roundabout to a crossroads around 2009. An A6 overpass and a roundabout on the B530 would be ideal but difficult to build without road closures.

However, this intersection would only be used by those wishing to go to Bedford, so Universal would likely have little impact.

I'd highly suggest filling in your concerns on Universals' form, or potentially telling your MP that you are supportive of the park but are concerned about this intersection and would like it to be rectified (likely via National Highways).

What did you mean by EMR putting pressure on Siemens for more 12 car units? I thought the 360's were hand me downs from another operator.

Correct, Siemens maintains them for EMR.

 

[richieb1971]

Not on here but I have noticed some pushback from rollercoaster-enthusiast forums. For some people, rail doesn't work for them, and they don't see that there are plenty for whom rail would work excellently. I'd disregard this viewpoint and leave transport share to the professionals from Universal's plans.

106m operational length (enough for 4x24m) at opening and all new platforms for 202m operational length. [source]

Universal will be playing their cards carefully, once they announce something publically it's very difficult to retract it. The 2 new stations, Manor Rd upgrades and A421 sliproads will be almost definite if the park goes ahead.

This does look congested and without an easy fix, having already been converted from a roundabout to a crossroads around 2009. An A6 overpass and a roundabout on the B530 would be ideal but difficult to build without road closures.

However, this intersection would only be used by those wishing to go to Bedford, so Universal would likely have little impact.

I'd highly suggest filling in your concerns on Universals' form, or potentially telling your MP that you are supportive of the park but are concerned about this intersection and would like it to be rectified (likely via National Highways).

Correct, Siemens maintains them for EMR.

Thanks for all that. Ideally there should be a good balance of rail/road in the footfall. This goes for the pricing as well. Like the Heathrow express is kind of enticing until you see the price of the ticket so I use the underground instead.

People would use the train, if it was priced competitively with other modes of transport. I mean, people don't dislike trains. They just don't use them because of cost. Or Strikes, or over crowding.

 

[JP65]

Universal are asking for upgrades on a few things. Length of trains, 2 extra platforms at Wixams and I assume some commitment from EWR.

EMR will have diagram changes if stopping at Wixams.

This is in stark contrast to what people think on here with a "that will do" attitude. The park will operate and affect other rail and road users. It's a bit silly to think it will not. This is not center parcs.

As I said elsewhere Bedford is bitcoin hq of Europe now. A movie studio a stones throw away is being built next to universal as well. I don't know why Bedford is suddenly the go to place to be honest. But for some reason everything is turning up here.

That movie studio has been cancelled now.

People elsewhere have now been wondering whether universal will purchase that land or have the option to purchase it.

I’m sure they have options on loads of land around the 500 acres they currently have and the 200+ extra they need for the road bypass etc.

 

[richieb1971]

That movie studio has been cancelled now.

OK. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[DarloRich]

The best option is to build the "limited" station now. If the park goes ahead and it gets replaced using Universal's money then there's no loss. It'll be useful for the workers during the park construction phase anyway in it's limited form. If the park doesn't happen, then you've not lost out on having a station there

Agree - Build Wixhams now and sort out the new platform later .I would rather do that than try and find the money for the whole station later.

Close Kempston Harwick and rebuild to a better location to serve the park. We might even get a Marston Vale line improvement out of this!

Universal can pay for all that

My concerns are that traffic jams are horrendous roughly where the B530 meets the A6 which is also where the Marston Vale line cross the MML. You have 2 major intersections either side of the Marston Vale bridge which backs up about half a mile in each direction on occasion. This location is about 1 mile from the park. If the slip lanes for the A421 fail, you have a potential perfect storm. The A421 is the ambulance services access to many parts of the shire as well.

This does look congested and without an easy fix, having already been converted from a roundabout to a crossroads around 2009. An A6 overpass and a roundabout on the B530 would be ideal but difficult to build without road closures.

However, this intersection would only be used by those wishing to go to Bedford, so Universal would likely have little impact.

The Elstow interchange area? let not overplay it. I have never seen any real delays in that area. The A421 is a good fast road and while you do get some traffic on the A1541 into town it is no worse than any other town and frankly not much of a problem even then. It moves quite freely most of the day. The biggest issue with the A421 is at either the Black Cat /A1 roundabout approach or the M1 Junction 13 > MK section.

That double interchange will, OBVIOSULY, need improvement to service all of the theme park traffic but the A421 as it is now is a good starting point. Better than when I first moved to MK!

 

[richieb1971]

The Elstow interchange area? let not overplay it. I have never seen any real delays in that area.

Oh you mean you haven't seen Ampthill road backed all the way to Rope walk on the other side of St Johns station? Or the retail park where your in traffic before you even leave the car park?

It happens everyday and its mostly caused by the 2 4 way junctions where the railways cross. People use the yellow zones in the junction by the hospital because otherwise they just wouldn't be able to move along. If the 2 4 way junctions were roundabouts it would help alot. Our local government can't do anything because the Dft have stated it affects the railways so they need to be in charge of that area. Of course for anyone in this area this is the access to the A421 and the park would be about 1 mile down the road.

Anyway this in 2017 - https://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/news...-cut-traffic-congestion-across-bedford-723681

My favourite snippet -

One motorist is already dubious. She said: “It all looks good on paper but how will a smart corridor along Ampthill Road help reduce the traffic congestion around the Cow Bridge junction which is just a nightmare?”

And here in 2019 - https://www.bedfordindependent.co.uk/road-reopening-could-ease-interchange-retail-park-traffic-jams/

Currently anyone wanting visiting the retail park at busy times is forced to sit in traffic jams that can reach as far back as Cow Bridge on Ampthill Road.

This disrupts anyone wanting to use the new retail park to the east or carry on along Ampthill Road toward Kempston Hardwick.

Of course, anyone just wanting to use Wixams station will go this way as well. Although I am guessing if the park gets the go ahead many will avoid it like the plague.

 

[DarloRich]

Oh you mean you haven't seen Ampthill road backed all the way to Rope walk on the other side of St Johns station? Or the retail park where your in traffic before you even leave the car park

Honestly it is a fairly normal main route into town with fairly normal into town traffic. It is nothing special. Ampthill Road (A5141) is a standard 2 lane town road running thorough an area of housing and business with an added bus lane on one side. It is a standard road running from the town centre, through terraced housing to inter war semis and out of town outlets and out to the main road.

It has numerous side roads and people turning into and out of those are imo a big reason why the traffic slows. it also has a number of bus stops and traffic light crossings/junctions which upset the flow. It is used by all types of traffic heading into Bedford. it runs at one end to the main road meeting point in Bedford and is a key artery in entering the town centre from the main roads on the edge. Of course it is busy but it isn't THAT busy!

The traffic light junctions will be helping keep the flow moving sensibly - they aren't to blame. It is just a standard road that is taking many more vehicles than it was designed for.

CLEARLY adding any extra park traffic to that will be bad news for all users but in any event this will have almost zero impact on anyone coming to Universal. Why? because for almost all visitors it would make no sense to do so!

Park visitors will be advised to use the A421 to access the site from either the A1 or M1 in the literature describing the park. Few will bother cutting through Bedford or going up the A6!

PS the distance from Cow bridge to the retail park is, generously, half a mile. Hardly worth mentioning!

 

[richieb1971]

Let the mayhem begin then. If the park traffic backs into the a6 junction my town will not function at all.

 

[DarloRich]

Let the mayhem begin then. If the park traffic backs into the a6 junction my town will not function at all.

I don't disagree - but that is why there will need to be proper access off an improved A421. Peopel just aren't going to visit the park via the centre of Bedford. To do so from anywhere but the local area makes no sense. The M1 & A1 links via the A421 are critical.

As an aside I do think that you need to look at the world beyond Bedford. Any traffic problems there are minimal compared to many other towns and cities in the UK

 

[richieb1971]

I don't disagree - but that is why there will need to be proper access off an improved A421. Peopel just aren't going to visit the park via the centre of Bedford. To do so from anywhere but the local area makes no sense. The M1 & A1 links via the A421 are critical.

As an aside I do think that you need to look at the world beyond Bedford. Any traffic problems there are minimal compared to many other towns and cities in the UK

In a perfect world I would want both railways to do the job.

The A421 has problems occasionally like the Asda distribution turnoff just before the Universal turning has its moments as well. It's OK to think universal will create congestion, but hopefully not near areas already suffering congestion.

I hope people who come by car get a 2nd tier experience into the park compared to those who come by train.

Long slip roads are the answer with hopefully no barriers before parking. Let the hoard go in without checks.

But honestly if rail takes less than 20 percent I'd call public transport a failure.

What do we know about Universal's UK plans? - BBC News

The US movie giant's plans reveal its theme park would be split into four main "zones", if approved.

www.bbc.co.uk

Also planned is a 4,200-space car park to accommodate the expected 35% of visitors who arrive by car.

 

[DaveN]

That movie studio has been cancelled now.

Has it? They don't seem to have withdrawn the planning application (Central Beds CB/22/03616/FULL)

 

[dosxuk]

Let the mayhem begin then. If the park traffic backs into the a6 junction my town will not function at all.

If the traffic is backing up to Bedford then Universal has failed. They will want people out of their cars, into the park and spending money as quickly as possible.

 

[richieb1971]

If the traffic is backing up to Bedford then Universal has failed. They will want people out of their cars, into the park and spending money as quickly as possible.

Let's hope.

 

[Bald Rick]

But honestly if rail takes less than 20 percent I'd call public transport a failure.

Universal estimate 35-40% will arrive by rail.

 

[londonteacher]

It’s almost like people forget that Universal around the world have great experience at this. Take Orlando, Universal have managed the roads around the parks with the city and traffic is no busier there than on other parts of the tourist areas.

 

[DarloRich]

In a perfect world I would want both railways to do the job.

I agree - although we have to be realistic: if we can get 30% arriving by train that would be superb. Even so many will still come by car simply because it will be most practical for them to do so.

It's OK to think universal will create congestion, but hopefully not near areas already suffering congestion.

It is also OK to expect universal to invest in the local road net to avoid that. It is in thier interest ( financially & politically) for them to do so.

 

[richieb1971]

I'm happy with 35% arriving by rail. I'm also happy with 35% arriving by car. The rest must be buses then. Its hardly in an accessible area.

These figures are in stark constrast to what was being thrown around a week ago. The words being used didn't describe 35% coming by rail for sure. Because 35 is equal to 35, not more and not less.

I understand this to be speculative. You cannot control how people arrive. Unless you make the train tickets cheaper of course.

Do you think West Coast Railways will run a Harry Potter train? Or do you think that would take an edge away from the park itself?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm happy with 35% arriving by rail. I'm also happy with 35% arriving by car. The rest must be buses then. Its hardly in an accessible area.

See post #13, and page 12 of the document issued by Universal, which sets this all out. I thought you would have read that.

The rest is taxis, buses, tour coaches, and ‘other modes of transport’, which presumably means bikes and walking for people coming from nearby (especially workers).

These figures are in stark constrast to what was being thrown around a week ago.

Where were different numbers being discussed? The expected mode share, as per the Universal document, was stated on this thread two weeks ago.

 

[pbin]

This letter from Lidlington indicates that Junction 13 on the M1 will be redesigned. This should enhance traffic flow.

It was also confirmed during the consultation on Tuesday that a 4-platform Wixams station is under consideration by the central government.

Edit: And a go/no go decision is to be expected in June.

 

[richieb1971]

I'm happy with 35% arriving by rail. I'm also happy with 35% arriving by car. The rest must be buses then. Its hardly in an accessible area.

See post #13, and page 12 of the document issued by Universal, which sets this all out. I thought you would have read that.

The rest is taxis, buses, tour coaches, and ‘other modes of transport’, which presumably means bikes and walking for people coming from nearby (especially workers).

These figures are in stark constrast to what was being thrown around a week ago.

The internet is a big place and I have a job. I was only following this thread to be fair. The consensus on this thread was that most would come by car and I was trying to argue that would be a failure of the railways considering the railways are adjacent to the park from each direction and being connected to most of the major nearby airports. I feel much more comfortable now that this news has reached me. Thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was only following this thread to be fair. The consensus on this thread was that most would come by car

I was only following this thread also. I dont know how you reached the conclusions you have.

 

[richieb1971]

I was only following this thread also. I dont know how you reached the conclusions you have.

I jumped into this thread from another one, where the consensus was rail would be far from the majority stakeholder. I'm of the opinion it's all up in the air. Just because something is predicted doesn't mean it will be true. At this stage are we even sure of what Wixams station build is going to be?

I'll wait for the plans as there seems to be those who favour the 2 platform build being done first with further expansion later. I'd imagine the 1st build would move the fasts away from the slows because If not you would need to start over as there is zero space to put a platform. And this is the debacle we are in.

 

[Energy]

I jumped into this thread from another one, where the consensus was rail would be far from the majority stakeholder.

Which thread is this? I've seen one on TowersTimes which had that concensus but it came from the 'train doesn't work for me so it won't work for anyone' viewpoint.

Judging a thread which believes rail will be small for the park is difficult when we don't know where it is.

I'll wait for the plans as there seems to be those who favour the 2 platform build being done first with further expansion later

Wixams has been planned for a while before and has progressed far from quickly. The council is likely to wait for Universal's decision (in June) before progressing with their plans for the station.

If Universal build it I'd be fairly certain it'll be the 4 platform from the beginning. It makes more sense for them to get it done than to try and expand it in a running theme park.

 

[richieb1971]

If Universal build it I'd be fairly certain it'll be the 4 platform from the beginning. It makes more sense for them to get it done than to try and expand it in a running theme park.

The Midland mainline runs 4 tracks without gaps in between. If 2 platforms are built you can just shove the slow lines to the side. But you cannot do that if it's 4 platform. If it's 4 platform the fast lines need realigning. So this means if they go ahead without park go ahead with 2 platforms they will have demolish it and start over again. Apparently if Wixams don't spend the money they have been given they will lose it. That's what I read don't shoot me if I am wrong. Also if station build goes ahead with contingency in place you might as well do the 4 platform from start as you're doing almost all the work.

I hope the platforms have lots of safety built in. Trains flying at 125mph through there.

 

[flitwickbeds]

That movie studio has been cancelled now.

Has it? They don't seem to have withdrawn the planning application (Central Beds CB/22/03616/FULL)

First I've heard of this too. The HoP website is still live and the planning approval has been given.

This letter from Lidlington indicates that Junction 13 on the M1 will be redesigned. This should enhance traffic flow.

Praise the lord! I drive from Ampthill to MK every day and that junction is just a mess.

Wixams has been planned for a while before and has progressed far from quickly. The council is likely to wait for Universal's decision (in June) before progressing with their plans for the station.

AIUI, if the station development is cancelled now, then the entire (six million??) pounds from the developer of Wixams as Section 106 money is lost for good.

 

[Bald Rick]

If 2 platforms are built you can just shove the slow lines to the side. But you cannot do that if it's 4 platform. If it's 4 platform the fast lines need realigning. So this means if they go ahead without park go ahead with 2 platforms they will have demolish it and start over again.

Are you certain about that? or just guessing?