Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Rhydgaled]

The AAR conversions are the subsequent suffixes.

Ah, thanks. Would mark 4b be the original 4-car rakes and 4c the SDO fitted examples?

 

[Envoy]

Surely, the priority must be to have these trains configured direction wise so that the DVT has the greatest chance of being on platform at stations most likely to be used by cyclists? Being as this is supposed to be an express service, why would it stop at Pyle - which has an incline going east?

 

[berneyarms]

Surely, the priority must be to have these trains configured direction wise so that the DVT has the greatest chance of being on platform at stations most likely to be used by cyclists? Being as this is supposed to be an express service, why would it stop at Pyle - which has an incline going east?

Right now I’d say that the priority is to just get the trains into service right now above and beyond anything else.

There won’t be any significant journey time improvements until the major TfW timetable recast happens in 2024 when all of the Class 197s are available. That will see significant changes along the Marches with the addition of the Liverpool service.

From December the Mark 4 sets are just going to replace existing services and hence will be making stops at smaller stations.

 

[Bob Price]

67029 Royal Diamond on a GC rake has just left Crewe heading for Canton on 3V78. Looks like a training run or ECS move.

 

[craigybagel]

Surely, the priority must be to have these trains configured direction wise so that the DVT has the greatest chance of being on platform at stations most likely to be used by cyclists? Being as this is supposed to be an express service, why would it stop at Pyle - which has an incline going east?

There are separate operational arguments for both putting the 67 at the Manchester end, and the Swansea end, and the last I heard it hadn't been decided which ones are more pressing.

Many Manchester - West Wales services call at Pyle. The incline shouldn't be an issue, inclines are what the 67s do best. From a standing start at Abergavenny a good 175 will be doing about 62 by the top of Llanvihangel bank. A sprinter will be around 58. The 67 will saunter over the top at 75+.

But as I mentioned above, Pyle is showing as an unadvertised stop so it probably won't happen anyway.

Right now I’d say that the priority is to just get the trains into service right now above and beyond anything else.

There won’t be any significant journey time improvements until the major TfW timetable recast happens in 2024 when all of the Class 197s are available. That will see significant changes along the Marches with the addition of the Liverpool service.

From December the Mark 4 sets are just going to replace existing services and hence will be making stops at smaller stations.

Exactly this. AFAIK the main impetus for the MKIVs in December is an internal cascade to release the 170s to EMR. Timetable enhancements can come later - the MKIVs can match unit timings with a few small changes here and there, so for now they're perfectly acceptable unit substitutes.

 

[Bikeman78]

That's the one

At the moment, when running in the correct formation with the DVT at the Cardiff end the DVT isn't platformed at Ruabon & Chirk both ways, and at Ludlow in the down (southbound) direction.

The addition of the 5th car is likely to add to that list, and some of the new stations served from December (Nantwich, Whitchurch, Wem, Leominster and Pyle (if the unadvertised stop there gets made public)) will likely not be able to platform the DVT either in at least one if not both directions - but we're awaiting the installation of stopping boards to confirm that, and a formal decision on which way around the sets will run

Sooner later they will get turned, e.g. when a Cardiff to Holyhead train is diverted via Crewe. It will be interesting to see how quickly they get turned around again. Back in the days of Mark 3 stock there were occasional runs from Canton to turn sets on the Maindee triangle at Newport.

 

[craigybagel]

Sooner later they will get turned, e.g. when a Cardiff to Holyhead train is diverted via Crewe. It will be interesting to see how quickly they get turned around again. Back in the days of Mark 3 stock there were occasional runs from Canton to turn sets on the Maindee triangle at Newport.

Indeed it is inevitable, but there are options for turning if deemed necessary.

The planned diagrams from December actually see the two sets that stable overnight in Crewe face opposite directions - as one will be ECS to and from Manchester via Warrington which will turn the set.

 

[Bikeman78]

Indeed it is inevitable, but there are options for turning if deemed necessary.

The planned diagrams from December actually see the two sets that stable overnight in Crewe face opposite directions - as one will be ECS to and from Manchester via Warrington which will turn the set.

Yes I spotted that. So I think it's inevitable that sets will be turned there too. If the first set off has a fault then presumably the other one will be stepped up. That's two sets turned straight away.

 

[Western 52]

Sooner later they will get turned, e.g. when a Cardiff to Holyhead train is diverted via Crewe. It will be interesting to see how quickly they get turned around again. Back in the days of Mark 3 stock there were occasional runs from Canton to turn sets on the Maindee triangle at Newport.

At Swansea they can turn them on the Landore triangle, assuming they are cleared for that route.

 

[Caaardiff]

At Swansea they can turn them on the Landore triangle, assuming they are cleared for that route.

Is there a suitable walking route to change ends or would it need 2 drivers?

 

[Western 52]

Is there a suitable walking route to change ends or would it need 2 drivers?

Good point, I'm not sure. HSTs regularly turned there though, did drivers walk through them?

 

[Envoy]

Interesting to see the speeds of different classes upon Llanvihangel bank provided by criagybagel. Wonder what the 197’s will be like on the inclines?

Canton has a triangle but it appears impossible to flip trains around at this important place.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

67029 took another rake of ex GC mk4s from Crewe to Canton Depot today. 3V78 10:26 Crewe C.S to Cardiff Canton Sidings.

 

[craigybagel]

Interesting to see the speeds of different classes upon Llanvihangel bank provided by criagybagel. Wonder what the 197’s will be like on the inclines?

I've only driven 197s between Crewe and Shrewsbury during training, and whilst the gradients along there aren't anywhere near as stiff as they are on the Marches proper, they were still noticeably quicker to 90mph than the 175s, and that was driving on the most economical setting. The 6 speed transmission should ensure the power from the engine is used in the most effective way - and the engine itself is a more powerful.

Canton has a triangle but it appears impossible to flip trains around at this important place.

Is there any reason it's impossible, or has there just never been a reason to use it? I would have hoped provision for using it for turning would have been included when it was resignalled a few years ago, if it didn't already exist in the old signalling - but that might be asking a bit too much of railway logic....

 

[SuperLuke2334]

67029 took another rake of ex GC mk4s from Crewe to Canton Depot today. 3V78 10:26 Crewe C.S to Cardiff Canton Sidings.

Same rake as yesterday, appears to be crew training. It was delayed in Hereford due to a driver change and one of the doors on one of the coaches while testing them got stuck open so it took a few minutes for them to close it again.

 

[GWVillager]

67029 Royal Diamond on a GC rake has just left Crewe heading for Canton on 3V78. Looks like a training run or ECS move.

Missed another? Is there any way to find out (or predict!) when they'll be running?

As for 67 direction, I'm sure this has been discussed before but surely it would make the most sense to run them at the Cardiff end, that way you don't fill up Manchester Piccadilly with fumes. The comments above are correct though, better to get them in service first.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Missed another? Is there any way to find out (or predict!) when they'll be running?

As for 67 direction, I'm sure this has been discussed before but surely it would make the most sense to run them at the Cardiff end, that way you don't fill up Manchester Piccadilly with fumes. The comments above are correct though, better to get them in service first.

3V78 and 3W79 are in the system Monday to Friday, whether they run or not is another question.

 

[GWVillager]

3V78 and 3W79 are in the system Monday to Friday, whether they run or not is another question.

Thank you, presumably they're the same train on crew training?

 

[sd0733]

Thank you, presumably they're the same train on crew training?

They arent particularly crew training as everyone working the tests already signs them, more shake down runs for the set and SDO trials so that training on that can start ready for December.
Should be out again tomorrow and probably the rest of the week too.

 

[craigybagel]

Quite often when moves like this take place one of the driver instructors will take it so they can use it for driver training, but with 3 round trips a day most training can be carried out using regular service trains.

 

[sd0733]

Quite often when moves like this take place one of the driver instructors will take it so they can use it for driver training, but with 3 round trips a day most training can be carried out using regular service trains.

True, drivers can get the hours on it. No Guards training on it though, only people whove done the SDO training at Landore are allowed near it.

 

[Watershed]

Quite often when moves like this take place one of the driver instructors will take it so they can use it for driver training, but with 3 round trips a day most training can be carried out using regular service trains.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how driver training should be done...

It's so frustrating seeing other operators making a right mess of this kind of thing.

 

[Nym]

Ah, thanks. Would mark 4b be the original 4-car rakes and 4c the SDO fitted examples?

C is only applicable to the DVT as it has the old multiple working removed.
B is compatible with both.

 

[anthony263]

There are separate operational arguments for both putting the 67 at the Manchester end, and the Swansea end, and the last I heard it hadn't been decided which ones are more pressing.

Many Manchester - West Wales services call at Pyle. The incline shouldn't be an issue, inclines are what the 67s do best. From a standing start at Abergavenny a good 175 will be doing about 62 by the top of Llanvihangel bank. A sprinter will be around 58. The 67 will saunter over the top at 75+.

But as I mentioned above, Pyle is showing as an unadvertised stop so it probably won't happen anyway.

Exactly this. AFAIK the main impetus for the MKIVs in December is an internal cascade to release the 170s to EMR. Timetable enhancements can come later - the MKIVs can match unit timings with a few small changes here and there, so for now they're perfectly acceptable unit substitutes.

If they take the Pyle stop out on the 0536 from Swansea they netter have a good replacement as its popular with people as they can get to Cardiff before 0700.

Also to not yhe current 0606 from Pyle to Cardiff currently also stops at the likes of Pencoed and does pick.up a lot of customers

 

[craigybagel]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how driver training should be done...

It's so frustrating seeing other operators making a right mess of this kind of thing.

It does help that there are driver instructors pretty much permanently allocated to MKIV training right now at both Cardiff and Crewe. As soon as one pair of trainees finishes up they start again with another. So there's usually someone around looking to get their hours in

If they take the Pyle stop out on the 0536 from Swansea they netter have a good replacement as its popular with people as they can get to Cardiff before 0700.

Also to not yhe current 0606 from Pyle to Cardiff currently also stops at the likes of Pencoed and does pick.up a lot of customers

Might be worth contacting TfW and making sure they're aware if they aren't already. There's a new Bridgend - Cheltenham service that will pick up the calls east of Bridgend previously made by the early Swansea - Cardiff, but Pyle won't benefit from that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

True, drivers can get the hours on it. No Guards training on it though, only people whove done the SDO training at Landore are allowed near it.

Good to know. Hopefully SDO training for guards soon?

 

[Envoy]

I've only driven 197s between Crewe and Shrewsbury during training, and whilst the gradients along there aren't anywhere near as stiff as they are on the Marches proper, they were still noticeably quicker to 90mph than the 175s, and that was driving on the most economical setting. The 6 speed transmission should ensure the power from the engine is used in the most effective way - and the engine itself is a more powerful.

Is there any reason it's impossible, or has there just never been a reason to use it? I would have hoped provision for using it for turning would have been included when it was resignalled a few years ago, if it didn't already exist in the old signalling - but that might be asking a bit too much of railway logic....

Sounds like the 197’s will be excellent regarding speed and hopefully the timings will be speeded up once they know that only these trains and the 67’s will be on The Marches.

When steam hauled trains have arrived at Cardiff from the east, they have sometimes been flipped around at the Newport east triangle and arrived in Cardiff diesel first. Alternatively, the steam engine has travelled light all the way back to Newport to be turned in order to be boiler first for returns eastward from Cardiff. Goodness knows why this can’t be done at Canton?

A second track was inserted on the City Line south of the depot a few years ago but still we seem to have a choke point in this area restricting the number of trains on the City Line to one every 30 minutes.Hopefully, this choke point will be sorted out and that work will include a way of flipping around trains at Canton easily should the need arise.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

They arent particularly crew training as everyone working the tests already signs them, more shake down runs for the set and SDO trials so that training on that can start ready for December.
Should be out again tomorrow and probably the rest of the week too.

Doesn't look like it's running today, not left Crewe yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

Edit, did leave Crewe in the end 46L. Terminated at Shrewsbury 'due to a problem with the traction equipment' according to RTT. Hopefully they'll get these faults sorted pretty quickly.

 

[GWVillager]

Doesn't look like it's running today, not left Crewe yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

Edit, did leave Crewe in the end 46L. Terminated at Shrewsbury 'due to a problem with the traction equipment' according to RTT. Hopefully they'll get these faults sorted pretty quickly.

I was at Hereford station today, I noticed quite a few people who'd come out to see the Mk 4s, but seem to have been left disappointed.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how driver training should be done...

It's so frustrating seeing other operators making a right mess of this kind of thing.

I must say, full credit to TfW with basically everything surrounding these trains. It's rare to see an operator go to such lengths to improve the stock on a route (especially when there are new trains on the way), and their introduction is looking remarkably punctual (so far!). It finally feels as if the Marches line is getting some stock that is appropriate for its potential as a scenic line.

 

[Sheridan]

Doesn't look like it's running today, not left Crewe yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

Edit, did leave Crewe in the end 46L. Terminated at Shrewsbury 'due to a problem with the traction equipment' according to RTT. Hopefully they'll get these faults sorted pretty quickly.

It should be pointed out that that reason for cancellation doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a problem with the traction equipment on that particular train - it could be a fault on another train which led to delays on the Marches and meant it wasn’t practical to run any further. (It would probably be better if the definite article was removed, i.e. ‘due to a problem with traction equipment’.)

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It should be pointed out that that reason for cancellation doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a problem with the traction equipment on that particular train - it could be a fault on another train which led to delays on the Marches and meant it wasn’t practical to run any further. (It would probably be better if the definite article was removed, i.e. ‘due to a problem with traction equipment’.)

That is a very good point, which I hadn't thought of before. Thanks for that!