Ex-LNER Mk4 sets for Grand Central (Blackpool - Euston)

[zn1]

Considering the MK4 fleet is still around 30 years old if that, then the cascading of them to other routes in to London and in to other regional usage must be more cost effective than purchasing of new stock, even if these means route clearances need sorting, as i recall HST was cleared for WCML...only after some platforms were "shaved"...

When new fleets are ordered - cascading of existing squadrons should continue, Scrapping should always be the last alternative and that should be just the body shells, all other major components such as Bogies, wheelsets, MA, etc must be scavenged off at depot before movement for spares contingency....yes i know - im shouting obvious...

but why go out purchasing 125 fleets when there are plenty out there already...

 

[Neptune]

Considering the MK4 fleet is still around 30 years old if that, then the cascading of them to other routes in to London and in to other regional usage must be more cost effective than purchasing of new stock, even if these means route clearances need sorting, as i recall HST was cleared for WCML...only after some platforms were "shaved"...

When new fleets are ordered - cascading of existing squadrons should continue, Scrapping should always be the last alternative and that should be just the body shells, all other major components such as Bogies, wheelsets, MA, etc must be scavenged off at depot before movement for spares contingency....yes i know - im shouting obvious...

but why go out purchasing 125 fleets when there are plenty out there already...

Certainly the BR way was to cascade and it worked well. Early mk2 coaches were transferred from Intercity routes to secondary routes such as transpennine when HST’s and mk3 LHCS came into squadron service.

Unfortunately privatisation saw this practice altered and we ended up with perfectly good air conditioned mk2 coaches go for scrap. When Arriva Trains Northern introduced the loco hauled service on the S&C there were calls for all S&C services to follow suit to release valuable 156’s for use elsewhere on the network. Sadly this never came to fruition as the SRA blocked it on cost grounds. In BR days it would have probably gone through because there would have been no hire costs.

These days the shiny TOC’s don’t want to do it because it doesn’t fit their image. A new train is a new train to them despite so many coming up short of expectations. It is noticeable that both the Wales and Scotland TOC’s have seen the benefits of cascading redundant stock for their prime services.

The only new loco hauled coaches in the country are the CAF mk5’s and from what I understand from those in the know is that they are crap compared to the mk4’s. I understand why TPE ordered them (speed of construction) but in hindsight they would have been better either ordering extra 802’s and accepting they would be a bit later into service than the mk5’s or is it possible they could have refurbished 13 rakes of mk4’s if they really wanted loco hauled (although lead time on their release was probably not as quick).

Despite being a dinosaur who first had an interest in the railways in the 1970’s I don’t usually hark back to the good old days (believe me they were good old days and far more interesting than today’s railways) but I do see the benefit in all these perfectly usable mk4’s being used on appropriate routes (and not made up new routes for Cross Country). I’m thinking more regional routes such as the S&C as happened in 2003/£.

 

[Domh245]

Considering the MK4 fleet is still around 30 years old if that, then the cascading of them to other routes in to London and in to other regional usage must be more cost effective than purchasing of new stock, even if these means route clearances need sorting, as i recall HST was cleared for WCML...only after some platforms were "shaved"...

The Pacers aren't much older yet I don't remember any clamour for them to be redeployed! If using Mk4s were more cost effective, don't you think we'd have seen them deployed? Where do you think they could have been deployed, and with what hauling them?

When new fleets are ordered - cascading of existing squadrons should continue, Scrapping should always be the last alternative and that should be just the body shells, all other major components such as Bogies, wheelsets, MA, etc must be scavenged off at depot before movement for spares contingency....yes i know - im shouting obvious...

I'd be amazed if the scrapped units hadn't been stripped for useful components. It's in the interest of the ROSCO to have useful components with life left in them recovered.

I understand why TPE ordered them (speed of construction) but in hindsight they would have been better either ordering extra 802’s and accepting they would be a bit later into service than the mk5’s or is it possible they could have refurbished 13 rakes of mk4’s if they really wanted loco hauled (although lead time on their release was probably not as quick).

They would have gone for more 802s. The only reason they went for Mk5as was the speed of introduction (ha!) so there'd have been no reason for Mk4s

 

[DB]

The Pacers aren't much older yet I don't remember any clamour for them to be redeployed! If using Mk4s were more cost effective, don't you think we'd have seen them deployed? Where do you think they could have been deployed, and with what hauling them?

Not all trains are made equal! The Pacers were built to a budget, were never very good and are now pretty much knackered.

The first batch of IEPs was a DFT order, and that covered a large part of the GWR and LNER fleets. The way the franchise invitations to tender have been worded in recent years has strongly encouraged new stock, so that's what the bidders have offered. Without this, we could well have seen more interest in Mk4s (and in keeping and PRM-modding more HSTs). Plus of course both DfT and franchisee like to announce their wonderful new train operator, with its 'new' trains. The public normally equates newer with better, which may or may not be the case, and even if in reality they wouldn't be able to tell the age of a decently-refurbished older train.

 

[DB]

The only new loco hauled coaches in the country are the CAF mk5’s and from what I understand from those in the know is that they are crap compared to the mk4’s.

I'm certainly not impressed with the TPE Mk5a sets - they are pretty much comparable to an IEP running on electric - ride quality not really very good, plus they are fitted with the same rock-hard seats which make the poor ride quality that bit more obvious.

Definitely not as good as Mk4s, and a long way below Mk3s.

 

[jopsuk]

don't forget the super-cheap financing available for new fleets (see Roger Ford, repeatedly, for a few years now)- most new rolling stock even where not through a contract like IEP is being purchased by special companies set up for the purpose (backed by bigger companies)

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure we need to rehash whether or not the Mk4s should find a new home and wider rolling stock issues regarding cascades versus buying new. Certainly we're going off-topic for a thread that's supposed to be about Mk4s with Grand Central

 

[delt1c]

Will be nice to see these in service , plus to see what the quality of service will be.

 

[Jamesrob637]

A great livery
Grand even!
Look forward to travelling on these plus TfW ones very soon. Be great to see 90s back on passenger near Manchester.

 

[py_megapixel]

I must say this stock look very smart in that livery. I always thought it was a bit old-timey for the Coradias but on an Intercity 225 it's perfect.
I'd love the logos on the locomotives to be a metal plates rather than just vinyl stickers but other than that I think this is one of the best liveries they've ever worn.
It will be interesting to see what they do to the Mk4 interiors but they had an excellent refurbishment under GNER IIRC and then a decent enough refresh under VTEC so I can't see them needing much beyond branding changes.

 

[RichJF]

The GC livery suits the 90s/Mk4s REALLY well! It's modern but also looks classic at the same time.

Might have to take a trip on one when everything COVID-related is gone & we can use public transport for leisure travel too!

 

[AshleyB]

Does anyone know which coaches have been re-liveried so far please?

 

[fgwrich]

If I'm honest, I don't have too much to say as the Mk4s look exactly how I'd expect them to look in GC livery - Exactly like an unpowered 180 vehicle with slightly different doors. They do look smart though and I agree about it being a better effort than TFW is putting in with their VTEC liveried Mk4s.

 

[43 302]

Route clearance wouldn’t be an issue I guess with MK4s as ECML stock anyway, but they’d have to terminate short at Doncaster or Northallerton for West Riding and North East respectively due to lack of electrification beyond

I'd assume instead of doing that they would ditch the 90s for 67s or some other deisel loco. This is if they even do it, which I'm doubtful of.

 

[nlogax]

It's a decent look for the Mk4s, definitely a throwback to their GNER days. Thumbs up and all that.

 

[DB]

I'd assume instead of doing that they would ditch the 90s for 67s or some other disel loco. This is if they even do it, which I'm doubtful of.

Without modifications the Mk4 DVTs couldn't work with any likely diesel loco. Not sure that they'd get the paths anyway with 67s (top allowed speed 110mph, and crap acceleration). 68s have better acceleration, but a top speed of 100mph (and they are mostly in use).

Can't see it happening.

 

[43 302]

Without modifications the Mk4 DVTs couldn't work with any likely diesel loco. Not sure that they'd get the paths anyway with 67s (top allowed speed 110mph, and crap acceleration). 68s have better acceleration, but a top speed of 100mph (and they are mostly in use).

Can't see it happening.

I didnt know that about 67s and DVTs, in that case I agree and can't see it happening.

 

[DB]

I didnt know that about 67s and DVTs, in that case I agree and can't see it happening.

All DVTs (mk3 and mk4) natively work with the TDM system, which is fitted to classes 86/87/89/90/91. 67s use AAR, so DVTs to be used with them have been fitted with this (i.e., Chiltern / Wales / NR (although these never seem to be used)).

 

[hexagon789]

https://twitter.com/railcamlive/status/1276452484660301824?s=21

First two sets; the Mk4s look quite good in that livery like the 90s.

 

[hexagon789]

It's just struck me how similar the scheme is to GNER's effectively changing the navy for black and the red stripe for yellow

 

[XCTurbostar]

Just looking at that video @hexagon789 shared above, I think the livery looks really good but I hate Arrivas fascination with disabled and bike sticker lines. They look terrible and IMO make the livery look at lot more tacky.

 

[hexagon789]

Just looking at that video @hexagon789 shared above, I think the livery looks really good but I hate Arrivas fascination with disabled and bike sticker lines. They look terrible and IMO make the livery look at lot more tacky.

Are they not a requirement? I guess the could resite/resize them but arguably you want them to be reasonably prominent so people can see them clearly and know where to go for bikes or wheelchair spaces

 

[py_megapixel]

Just looking at that video @hexagon789 shared above, I think the livery looks really good but I hate Arrivas fascination with disabled and bike sticker lines. They look terrible and IMO make the livery look at lot more tacky.

Are they not a requirement? I guess the could resite/resize them but arguably you want them to be reasonably prominent so people can see them clearly and know where to go for bikes or wheelchair spaces

If I recall correctly it's a requirement to clearly mark wheelchair spaces on the outside, and to have the doors contrast with the rest of the livery, but I don't think it has to be a line in the style of Arriva.

I think the lines might have started out as a Northern Rail thing in the Serco-Abellio days and was picked up by Arriva when they were designing the new Northern livery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just looking at that video @hexagon789 shared above, I think the livery looks really good but I hate Arrivas fascination with disabled and bike sticker lines. They look terrible and IMO make the livery look at lot more tacky.

Because providing that information is more important than a perfect livery?

 

[Neptune]

If I recall correctly it's a requirement to clearly mark wheelchair spaces on the outside, and to have the doors contrast with the rest of the livery, but I don't think it has to be a line in the style of Arriva.

I think the lines might have started out as a Northern Rail thing in the Serco-Abellio days and was picked up by Arriva when they were designing the new Northern livery.

The idea for those stickers came from a conductor during the Serco/Abellio Northern franchise. Arriva took the idea on for ATW and GC and carried it on when they took on Northern.

 

[hexagon789]

If I recall correctly it's a requirement to clearly mark wheelchair spaces on the outside, and to have the doors contrast with the rest of the livery, but I don't think it has to be a line in the style of Arriva.

I think the lines might have started out as a Northern Rail thing in the Serco-Abellio days and was picked up by Arriva when they were designing the new Northern livery.

They could do it differently but the issue is that might not be so clear

 

[py_megapixel]

They could do it differently but the issue is that might not be so clear

You're absolutely right, though a stripe isn't nessecarily the only way of achieving this. For example, public transport in Berlin handles this by simply having a very large wheelchair symbol stuck on the window of the relevant door. However, I personally think the stripe is a pretty elegant solution.

 

[hexagon789]

You're absolutely right, though a stripe isn't nessecarily the only way of achieving this. For example, public transport in Berlin handles this by simply having a very large wheelchair symbol stuck on the window of the relevant door. However, I personally think the stripe is a pretty elegant solution.

I agree; Northern use similar and it fits their livery quite well

 

[Darandio]

Just looking at that video @hexagon789 shared above, I think the livery looks really good but I hate Arrivas fascination with disabled and bike sticker lines. They look terrible and IMO make the livery look at lot more tacky.

Maybe this might surprise you, but these things are pretty important.

 

[Domh245]

The disabled door sticker barely stands out, fitting in quite well with the rest of the livery IMO. The bicycle access sticker is a bit more prominent, at first I thought it was a nameplate!