Excesses - Railcard to non-railcard

[Max]

Does anybody know what the policy is regarding this, specifically in relation to Advance tickets (so long as you do it in advance of travel)? It doesn't appear to be documented anywhere and different TOCs take completely different interpretations (from excessing to the same tier without the admin fee to stating it can't be done on any ticket type, let alone an Advance). Is there anything in the Ts and Cs or anything in writing in booking offices which clarifies the position on this?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Does anybody know what the policy is regarding this, specifically in relation to Advance tickets (so long as you do it in advance of travel)? It doesn't appear to be documented anywhere and different TOCs take completely different interpretations (from excessing to the same tier without the admin fee to stating it can't be done on any ticket type, let alone an Advance). Is there anything in the Ts and Cs or anything in writing in booking offices which clarifies the position on this?

Excess Fares rules in iKB do not cover railcard discounted to non-discounted fares (of any type). Some companies, such as East Coast, have a policy to allow it to be done, others, like Northern, do not have that policy.

 

[fraser158]

In my experience ScotRail allow it.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Excess Fares rules in iKB do not cover railcard discounted to non-discounted fares (of any type). Some companies, such as East Coast, have a policy to allow it to be done, others, like Northern, do not have that policy.

But they don't have a policy not to allow it either, I presume? A friend of mine had such an excess done on an Off-Peak Day Single at Leeds station a few months ago, with no problems at all.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But they don't have a policy not to allow it either, I presume? A friend of mine had such an excess done on an Off-Peak Day Single at Leeds station a few months ago, with no problems at all.

On the training day I had for STAR, it was made clear, we do not do it. However, east side had different staff doing the course and it may not have been mentioned, leading to some staff doing it anyway, that, however, does not make policy.

 

[island]

The policy generally seems to be that it isn't done, but you might find clerks who do it nevertheless.

 

[janb]

One of those things that isn't clarified anywhere so staff/customers left to flounder, but did once ask a little further up the food chain and told "no, not done" as ticket could be transferred. So its not something we normally do although I think I did once take pity on someone and do it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So Northern won't allow the honest customers to rectify their mistake before boarding a train, yet express surprise when customers end up doing the "pocket dance"?

 

[andrewkeith5]

So Northern won't allow the honest customers to rectify their mistake before boarding a train, yet express surprise when customers end up doing the "pocket dance"?

Sadly, honesty and kidness is in my experience, most of the time, rewarded only with increased cost and hindrance in this society

 

[bb21]

So Northern won't allow the honest customers to rectify their mistake before boarding a train, yet express surprise when customers end up doing the "pocket dance"?

That's a poor accusation. You can correct the mistake by purchasing the correct undiscounted fare.

Unfortunately the discounted ticket is not valid, and there is no definitive answer whether the passenger is entitled to an excess.

 

[tsr]

If, for some reason, the ticket type required with a Railcard was different from that without, could you simply change the ticket type and not apply the discount?

 

[bb21]

50 shades of grey.

 

[swt_passenger]

50 shades of grey.

I wonder if some passengers who report that they got an excess in this situation (i.e. at a ticket office) were just processed as a refund and resale of the right ticket, with the £10.00 admin fee waived by the discretion of the staff.

To all intents they might think they paid something like an 'excess' but hadn't really...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So Northern won't allow the honest customers to rectify their mistake before boarding a train, yet express surprise when customers end up doing the "pocket dance"?

"Customers" can buy a new ticket and apply for refund on the discounted ticket held. Granted there is a £10 admin fee, but if it is a genuine mistake the admin fee is cheaper than some other consequences for 'genuine mistakes'.

If, for some reason, the ticket type required with a Railcard was different from that without, could you simply change the ticket type and not apply the discount?

In some cases an excess without a Railcard discount could be the cheapest option, for example....

Passenger has a discounted Manchester-Liverpool Off-Peak Single for a Monday in October, but now wishes to travel between 0930 and 1000 on that day. An excess to a non-discounted ticket (£11.90) would be cheaper than a Railcard discounted ticket (£12).

I think changing the ticket type, class of accommodation, destination or route just to remove the Railcard discount could be considered a dubious excess to issue, however, if the request seems genuine I think it would be issued by most staff.

 

[Tetchytyke]

"Customers" can buy a new ticket and apply for refund on the discounted ticket held. Granted there is a £10 admin fee, but if it is a genuine mistake the admin fee is cheaper than some other consequences for 'genuine mistakes'.

Not for advance tickets they can't.

By and large I'd say people at the ticket office have made a genuine mistake. And being a bit more sensible towards them at the ticket office would help sort out plenty of those who make "genuine mistakes".

Charging people the full fare regardless of whether they turn up at the ticket office or at a ticket inspection on board will just encourage "trying it on" with the pocket dance.

Though for tickets worth more than £30 the best option would probably be to buy a new Railcard.

 

[andrewkeith5]

I'm surprised there isn't an official central policy on this actually, considering it's probably the most likely situation of all excesses.

For example, if someone simply forgets their railcard I don't see why they shouldn't have the opportunity, before they start to travel, to excess to a non-discounted fare. Or if a railcard is lost and a number of tickets have been prepaid/picked up, there should be the opportunity to make them useful again given it can take a full week to get a replacement.

Its only fair and logical, but sadly many railway staff often aren't even with official rules saying it can/should be done I'm sure some would insist that a new ticket was necessary. Apologies for being cynical, but we all know its true!

 

[Haywain]

I'm surprised there isn't an official central policy on this actually, considering it's probably the most likely situation of all excesses.

For example, if someone simply forgets their railcard I don't see why they shouldn't have the opportunity, before they start to travel, to excess to a non-discounted fare. Or if a railcard is lost and a number of tickets have been prepaid/picked up, there should be the opportunity to make them useful again given it can take a full week to get a replacement.

Most Railcards are available immediately from ticket offices.

Its only fair and logical, but sadly many railway staff often aren't even with official rules saying it can/should be done I'm sure some would insist that a new ticket was necessary. Apologies for being cynical, but we all know its true!

As the vast majority of TOCs do not allow excesses in this situation, it's really a bit much to blame the staff for following the policies of their employers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm surprised there isn't an official central policy on this actually, considering it's probably the most likely situation of all excesses.

The official central policy is laid down in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, which specifies the six cases where an Excess may be sold.

An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-

• travel via a different route than the one he would otherwise be entitled to use;
• travel at a different time or on a different day than he would otherwise be entitled to travel;
• terminate or break and resume his journey at a Station at which he would not otherwise be entitled to do this;
• use a better class of accommodation;
• travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his journey; or
• start his journey at a Station that is on the Permitted Route for the Flow that he is entitled to use, where he would not otherwise be entitled to do this.

In practice, there are some members of staff who will show discretion and issue excesses for other reasons (such as a forgotten Railcard) or to avoid the paperwork involved in processing a refund (and delay where it has to be sent to a central location to be paid out).

 

[jon0844]

Most Railcards are available immediately from ticket offices.

That's one solution, but if you sought to change your tickets before travel then I don't see a problem in allowing it, even if you charged a small fee to do so. Perhaps £10, but £10 for one ticket or a batch done at once - rather than per ticket. All it takes is an amendment to the rules, and some staff briefs.

I fully understand why you wouldn't want to allow the excess after travel has commenced, otherwise I (and everyone else) would be best advised to always buy a discounted ticket that can operate barriers and only pay the excess when caught.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Most Railcards are available immediately from ticket offices.

They are if you have the receipt and £10 admin fee for a replacement. And if you simply forget yours, that doesn't help much.

As the vast majority of TOCs do not allow excesses in this situation, it's really a bit much to blame the staff for following the policies of their employers.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I thought it was implied from my writing that that particular comment is a generalisation - which some time spent reading threads on here will show to be generally correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The official central policy is laid down in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, which specifies the six cases where an Excess may be sold.

In practice, there are some members of staff who will show discretion and issue excesses for other reasons (such as a forgotten Railcard) or to avoid the paperwork involved in processing a refund (and delay where it has to be sent to a central location to be paid out).

Indeed that's true and there are some staff members who show sense/discretion in the scenarios I describe. However as usual situations like this are never good - if some do and some don't, particularly on a TOC by TOC basis, then it is unclear to the average passenger what the rule actually is (irrespective of the actual rule). The logical rule (important word) would be to allow an excess before travel starts, and a new ticket/PF if already started, considering how most of the former eventualities would be genuine mistakes whilst the latter may or may not be so discretion would need to come into play.

 

[Haywain]

They are if you have the receipt and £10 admin fee for a replacement. And if you simply forget yours, that doesn't help much.

If you turn up with £30, a completed application form and (where applicable) proof of age and a passport sized photograph you will be able to buy any of 16-25, Senior, Family & Friends and Two Together Railcards immediately. No need to have any previous proof of purchase, no need to wait for a week.

 

[andrewkeith5]

If you turn up with £30, a completed application form and (where applicable) proof of age and a passport sized photograph you will be able to buy any of 16-25, Senior, Family & Friends and Two Together Railcards immediately. No need to have any previous proof of purchase, no need to wait for a week.

You seem not to be seeing the point I'm making. Which is that, again logically it isn't fair to ask people to buy a new card when they already have a valid card and either have forgotten it on that occasion or are entitled to a replacement at reduced cost in the event of loss/theft.

For example, say a railcard is stolen whilst away on a trip and the ticket has a value of less than £90. It isn't necessarily possible to get a railcard delivered locally if the original was purchased online, and you can't get a replacement if you purchased it at a station because the receipt is kept safe at home. Only if the ticket is worth £60 or more (and thus the difference between paid value and face value is £20 or more) is it fair to ask that person to buy a new railcard. If the railcard is simply forgotten for a journey, the ticket value increases to £90 before it's reasonable to ask the person to pay for another railcard.
(based on £30 a year being the cost of most railcards and there being a £10 admin fee for loss or theft)

The railway won't give a refund for purchasing a new card when you shouldn't need to... So why not give the opportunity to excess a railcard-discounted ticket to a non-railcard-discounted ticket, if requested before it is used?

I should add: It's obviously my opinion that there should be the opportunity for genuine mistakes/unfortunate circumstances to be resolved before travel. Whether that's the case or not isn't my decision, but the problem arises when some TOCs have different policies to others on the matter and nowhere is such information available - the same problem as most other problems on the National Rail network.

 

[Hadders]

I really think the lack of ability to excess a railcard discounted ticket to a non-discounted ticket is an oversight in the current terms and conditions.

A number of similar situations with Advance tickets were clarified when the Advance Fares FAQ's were published. These FAQ's seem to suggest that maximum flexibility should be given to passengers making changes before the journey commences.

The spirit of this doesn't seem to apply to missing railcards. I see no reason why flexibility shouldn't be given to passengers who attempt to excess their ticket prior to travel. Perhaps an admin fee could be charged if necessary, although this would set a dangerous precedent as far as excesses are concerned.

I know there are people from ATOC who read this board, perhaps they could comment.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure they'll comment. It's obvious they read these posts, but not obvious who they are and I am sure they want to keep it that way.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not for advance tickets they can't....

Fair point, though I was thinking of 'walk-on' fares with that comment.

....Charging people the full fare regardless of whether they turn up at the ticket office or at a ticket inspection on board will just encourage "trying it on" with the pocket dance....

It doesn't matter if you allow people to change the ticket on the train, or beforehand, or not, people will still do the 'pocket dance' because they still won't want to pay the extra.

....Though for tickets worth more than £30 the best option would probably be to buy a new Railcard.

The 'best' option would depend on the circumstances in each individual case. A 25 year old could hold a 16-25 Railcard and buy a new railcard pretty quickly if needed, a 26 year old could hold a 16-25 Railcard, but would require an application signed by a recognised college to get a new one.

....As the vast majority of TOCs do not allow excesses in this situation, it's really a bit much to blame the staff for following the policies of their employers.

I thought you'd been on the forum long enough to know that when staff don't follow the rules they should get retrained (or sacked) and when they do follow the rules they should use discretion.

You seem not to be seeing the point I'm making. Which is that, again logically it isn't fair to ask people to buy a new card when they already have a valid card and either have forgotten it on that occasion or are entitled to a replacement at reduced cost in the event of loss/theft....

Why should the railway bend over backwards when the passenger makes a mistake?

....For example, say a railcard is stolen whilst away on a trip and the ticket has a value of less than £90. It isn't necessarily possible to get a railcard delivered locally if the original was purchased online, and you can't get a replacement if you purchased it at a station because the receipt is kept safe at home....

You do not need the receipt if your Railcard is stolen, you can supply a Police Crime Reference Number instead. The Railcard will still be issued on the spot if the original was station issued, regardless of where it was originally issued (bearing in mind some Railcards need a Photocard).

....Only if the ticket is worth £60 or more (and thus the difference between paid value and face value is £20 or more) is it fair to ask that person to buy a new railcard. If the railcard is simply forgotten for a journey, the ticket value increases to £90 before it's reasonable to ask the person to pay for another railcard.
(based on £30 a year being the cost of most railcards and there being a £10 admin fee for loss or theft)...

Theft does not incur an admin fee if a Police Crime Reference Number is supplied.

....The railway won't give a refund for purchasing a new card when you shouldn't need to... So why not give the opportunity to excess a railcard-discounted ticket to a non-railcard-discounted ticket, if requested before it is used?...

Why should the railway bend over backwards when the passenger makes a mistake?

 

[cav1975]

Why should the railway bend over backwards when the passenger makes a mistake?

Most businesses value their customers and do bend over backwards when customers make a mistake. This is normal good business sense and encourages customers to return.

Since the railway usually calls us customers these days rather than passengers they should treat us appropriately.

 

[island]

The railway doesn't need to encourage most of its passengers to return, as they have few alternatives.

 

[dcsprior]

The official central policy is laid down in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, which specifies the six cases where an Excess may be sold.

An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-

• travel via a different route than the one he would otherwise be entitled to use;
• travel at a different time or on a different day than he would otherwise be entitled to travel;
• terminate or break and resume his journey at a Station at which he would not otherwise be entitled to do this;
• use a better class of accommodation;
• travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his journey; or
• start his journey at a Station that is on the Permitted Route for the Flow that he is entitled to use, where he would not otherwise be entitled to do this.

In practice, there are some members of staff who will show discretion and issue excesses for other reasons (such as a forgotten Railcard) or to avoid the paperwork involved in processing a refund (and delay where it has to be sent to a central location to be paid out).

Given that it says

An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to​

Rather than

An Excess Fare may only be Sold if the only benefit of the change is that entitles the Purchaser of it to​

Does this mean that if you held a Newcastle-Edinburgh off-peak day single purchased with a railcard you could get an excess to a non-railcard ticket with additional validity such as the anytime single or the same ticket type, but to Haymarket instead of Waverley?