Excessing Boundary Zone 3 to Heathrow to include London Terminals

[Max]

So, having been held up by the ever unreliable Hammersmith and City line, I find myself on the most expensive TOC in the country in terms of cost per mile - yes, Heathrow Express! Sadly, following the general advice that TOCs give, I'd bought my ticket this morning at Liverpool Street for the Connect (boundary Zone 3 - Heathrow Rail Route Not London), which is now useless.

My question is, should I have been entitled to an Excess or did I really have to pay the full fare again? Over-distance excesses aren't prohibited on Boundary Zone tickets, and neither ticket is TOC specific. But I was told categorically that this wasn't possible (basically because HEx aren't a member of ATOC and don't have to abide by the Routeing Guide). But it doesn't change the fact that the Any Permitted ticket is inter-available with Connect and even FGW. Is this clear cut or a grey area?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Tricky.

Boundary Zones fares aren't their own ticket, they are issued as an extension of a Travelcard (hence they don't need to abide by Condition 19) and so I'm not sure, from a rules point of view, that an over-riding excess could be given, at least not at the 'boundary' end. This, of course, doesn't address the issue of only the destination being altered by the excess.

 

[furlong]

Heathrow Express has its own Conditions of Carriage which state:

8.12 Tickets are only valid on Heathrow Express trains if they say so explicitly.

Put simply: I can't see how your ticket combination has any validity whatsoever on Heathrow Express, and all you could do is purchase a new ticket and try to claim a refund on the original under NRCoC 26(b).

 

[Max]

Interesting, the ticket I was issued at Paddington was Route: Any Permitted and didn't explicitly mention Heathrow Express anywhere!

Heathrow Express has its own Conditions of Carriage which state:



Put simply: I can't see how your ticket combination has any validity whatsoever on Heathrow Express, and all you could do is purchase a new ticket and try to claim a refund on the original under NRCoC 26(b).

 

[Starmill]

I'd bought my ticket this morning at Liverpool Street for the Connect (boundary Zone 3 - Heathrow Rail Route Not London), which is now useless.

Errr, that ticket is valid on Heathrow Express...

As long as they aren't routed 'NOT HEATHROW EXP' all tickets to 'Heathrow Rail' should be valid on Heathrow Express services where they are a permitted route. Uniquely(?) this even extends to routes like '✠LDN MIDLND.ONLY' and '✠SOUTHERN ONLY', although of course those should say '✠SOUTHERN & HEX'.

 

[bb21]

I am not so sure about that.

Don't forget that Heathrow Express are not subject to the NRCoC, hence the provisions of Condition 10 do not necessarily apply.

 

[yorkie]

NRCoC applies to " scheduled services on the National Rail Network".

Is Heathrow Express not a part of the National Rail network? If it's not why does it appear here?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/HX.aspx
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/47341.aspx

Once all traces of Heathrow Express are removed from the National Rail Network, and once the screens at Paddington state "Private Charter" I'm sure we'll then accept that position.

Of course Heathrow Express want to have their cake and eat it; they want the benefits of being part of the National Rail Network but none of what they perceive as dis-benefits.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Errr, that ticket is valid on Heathrow Express...

As long as they aren't routed 'NOT HEATHROW EXP' all tickets to 'Heathrow Rail' should be valid on Heathrow Express services where they are a permitted route. Uniquely(?) this even extends to routes like '✠LDN MIDLND.ONLY' and '✠SOUTHERN ONLY', although of course those should say '✠SOUTHERN & HEX'.

Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express.

NRCoC applies to " scheduled services on the National Rail Network".

Is Heathrow Express not a part of the National Rail network? If it's not why does it appear here?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/HX.aspx
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/47341.aspx

Once all traces of Heathrow Express are removed from the National Rail Network, and once the screens at Paddington state "Private Charter" I'm sure we'll then accept that position.

Of course Heathrow Express want to have their cake and eat it; they want the benefits of being part of the National Rail Network but none of what they perceive as dis-benefits.

Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect (between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Airport) are not listed as train companies in the NRCoC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Errr, that ticket is valid on Heathrow Express...

No it's not, because it is from Boundary Zone 3.

Boundary Zone tickets are, for accounting reasons, a bit different from tickets from London Terminals or outboundary Travelcards. They are only valid on TOCs which have two revenue stops in the Travelcard (1-6) area, and thus TOCs who don't have stops in those areas do not accept them.

This means they are not valid on Virgin nor on East Coast, and weren't valid on Gatwick Express when it was its own TOC (might well be now it's Southern though) nor on FGW when it didn't have the local services under its belt.

They are also not valid on HEx because it has no revenue stops within the Zones.

EDIT: Some searching tells me that this situation may have changed and these tickets may have become valid on VT/EC - anyone confirm? This leaves HEx as an oddity if so.

I guess what the OP wanted to do was to overdistance excess that ticket back from BZ3 to London Paddington (which is where HEx tickets are issued to/from, not London Terminals - took a while to find them in brfares.com!). Which I guess can't be done because that's a zonal ticket and not a point-to-point one. If the OP had bought a point to point ticket from somewhere-the-HConn-stops-in-zone-3 to Heathrow (possibly more expensive) that would I think be excessable. Subject to finding a member of staff having half a clue about excesses, which is not always easy.

Neil

 

[maniacmartin]

No it's not, because it is from Boundary Zone 3.

Boundary Zone tickets are, for accounting reasons, a bit different from tickets from London Terminals or outboundary Travelcards. They are only valid on TOCs which have two revenue stops in the Travelcard (1-6) area, and thus TOCs who don't have stops in those areas do not accept them.

This means they are not valid on Virgin nor on East Coast, and weren't valid on Gatwick Express when it was its own TOC (might well be now it's Southern though) nor on FGW when it didn't have the local services under its belt.

What is a revenue stop?

Also do you have a source for this, because I do not believe it to be true

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I guess what the OP wanted to do was to overdistance excess that ticket back from BZ3 to London Terminals....

I was left with the impression that the origin needed changing from Boundary Zone 3 to London Terminals, but I decided not to go into that point specifically.

....Which I guess can't be done because that's a zonal ticket and not a point-to-point one....

It is not zonal, it is a point to point extension of a travelcard.

....If the OP had bought a point to point ticket from somewhere-the-HConn-stops-in-zone-3 to Heathrow (possibly more expensive) that would I think be excessable. Subject to finding a member of staff having half a clue about excesses, which is not always easy.

Neil

It would be more likely to get an excess, but the problem of excessing from the destination still arises.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is a revenue stop?

In this case two stations within the Zones between which you can validly use a Travelcard to travel. But to provide a further example, if the Zones expanded to cover Watford Junction, LM would be in such a situation because you can travel from Euston to Watford with LM, VT would not because of the u/s restrictions.

Also do you have a source for this, because I do not believe it to be true

Unfortunately not, as I don't have access to a copy of The Manual, only brfares.com which doesn't contain the extra information about BZ tickets. Per my edit this may have changed, but I'm certain it *used* to be the case.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not zonal, it is a point to point extension of a travelcard.

It isn't point to point, because Boundary Zone 3 may not be a single point (it often is, and is in this case, but it doesn't have to be). Therefore it is a special case. What it effectively does is creates an outboundary Travelcard in the opposite direction.

It would be more likely to get an excess, but the problem of excessing from the destination still arises.

From the origin, you mean? I thought you could do an overdistance excess from either end - can you not do one from the origin normally? I never tried.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....EDIT: Some searching tells me that this situation may have changed and these tickets may have become valid on VT/EC - anyone confirm? This leaves HEx as an oddity if so....

Any restriction on use of Train Company would have to be shown on the ticket (NRCoC Condition 10), Heathrow Express is not listed as a Train Company in the NRCoC.

iKB notes specifically that Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express, nor on Heathrow Connect between Hayes and Harlington and Heathrow Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...It isn't point to point, because Boundary Zone 3 may not be a single point (it often is, and is in this case, but it doesn't have to be). Therefore it is a special case. What it effectively does is creates an outboundary Travelcard in the opposite direction....

It does not cover an area, therefore it is not zonal. it covers a journey from a point on the boundary of the appropriate zone to the noted place, it is a point to point extension of a travelcard.

...From the origin, you mean? I thought you could do an overdistance excess from either end - can you not do one from the origin normally? I never tried.

Neil

The excess is commonly refered to as "Over-distance", indeed that is how it appears on the excess ticket, but it is actually "Over-Riding (Travelling beyond the destination of the ticket)". There has, in the past, been debate about what the destination of a ticket actually is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any restriction on use of Train Company would have to be shown on the ticket (NRCoC Condition 10), Heathrow Express is not listed as a Train Company in the NRCoC.

How does this affect the non-validity of Network Railcard tickets on Gatwick Express until recently (not shown on the ticket) or the non-validity of Gold Card tickets on VT/East Coast (as will be the case)?

I guess the Railcard T&Cs override the requirement for this?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It does not cover an area, therefore it is not zonal. it covers a journey from a point on the boundary of the appropriate zone to the noted place, it is a point to point extension of a travelcard.

Though there may be multiple such points (most likely sarf ov da Rivva). I'd concede it is a special case but I don't think it's a simple point to point. If it was I could see no reason why the requested excess should not have been issued, as the fares seem to exist in the system. Unless, as you say, it's simply because you can't excess back from the origin.

So...to the staff/experts on here a question, then. If that was a BZ3 to Milton Keynes Central ticket (say), and I'd wanted for whatever reason to excess it back to London Terminals (OK, if what I said about TOC validity is indeed wrong, as it seems it might be, there's little reason to...but bear with me!), is that possible?

What about the other way round, a MKC to BZ3 ticket? (These I believe now exist).

The excess is commonly refered to as "Over-distance", indeed that is how it appears on the excess ticket, but it is actually "Over-Riding (Travelling beyond the destination of the ticket)". There has, in the past, been debate about what the destination of a ticket actually is.

Ah.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How does this affect the non-validity of Network Railcard tickets on Gatwick Express until recently (not shown on the ticket) or the non-validity of Gold Card tickets on VT/East Coast (as will be the case)?

I guess the Railcard T&Cs override the requirement for this?

Neil

It is the railcard discount that restricts, not the ticket. I have seen this point argued too many times to start it again here.

....Though there may be multiple such points (most likely sarf ov da Rivva)....

Nevertheless, it is one point to one point.

....I'd concede it is a special case but I don't think it's a simple point to point. If it was I could see no reason why the requested excess should not have been issued, as the fares seem to exist in the system. Unless, as you say, it's simply because you can't excess back from the origin.....

Ignoring the issue of the origin/destination being excessed. In order to have the boundary zone fare, you must first have the travelcard (or buy it at the same time). If you have the travelcard you shouldn't need an over-riding excess at that end because you already have a ticket. You cannot change a TOC specific ticket, but then neither are actually TOC specific because Heathrow Express is not listed as a train company. The excess fares rules do not cover this eventuality as far as I can see.

 

[Hadders]

Boundary Zone tickets are, for accounting reasons, a bit different from tickets from London Terminals or outboundary Travelcards. They are only valid on TOCs which have two revenue stops in the Travelcard (1-6) area, and thus TOCs who don't have stops in those areas do not accept them.

I don't think this is correct. There is nothing printed on the ticket to suggest this is the case.

How would a 19(c) split using a travelcard season and a point to point ticket be treated?

Wasn't there a case a few years back where Virgin refused to accept a travelcard and a BZ combination on a journey to Milton Keynes? In this case the issue was Virgin's acceptance of a travelcard held on Oyster, but you can be sure that they'd have used this as a get out if it existed.

 

[bb21]

NRCoC applies to " scheduled services on the National Rail Network".

Is Heathrow Express not a part of the National Rail network? If it's not why does it appear here?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/HX.aspx
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/47341.aspx

Once all traces of Heathrow Express are removed from the National Rail Network, and once the screens at Paddington state "Private Charter" I'm sure we'll then accept that position.

Of course Heathrow Express want to have their cake and eat it; they want the benefits of being part of the National Rail Network but none of what they perceive as dis-benefits.

I think we might be back at the horrible point of discussing potential differences between a Train Operating Company (as described by NRE) and a Train Company (as described by NRCoC) again.

No, I think when the NRCoC makes explicit mention to the list of companies it refers to then it would be very difficult to argue that it applies to one not in the list in my opinion. Not saying that it is right not to, just would be a very difficult point to argue because I am not confident a court will necessarily view it the way we would prefer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't there a case a few years back where Virgin refused to accept a travelcard and a BZ combination on a journey to Milton Keynes? In this case the issue was Virgin's acceptance of a travelcard held on Oyster, but you can be sure that they'd have used this as a get out if it existed.

Yeah, I found that one, hence my edit. I now think this perhaps was the case originally but no longer.

Would delete my post as misleading, however it's been quoted enough that it would require the mods to do some general editing, so I will leave it in place with the edit suggesting that it is probably wrong.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think we might be back at the horrible point of discussing potential differences between a Train Operating Company (as described by NRE) and a Train Company (as described by NRCoC) again.

No, I think when the NRCoC makes explicit mention to the list of companies it refers to then it would be very difficult to argue that it applies to one not in the list in my opinion. Not saying that it is right not to, just would be a very difficult point to argue because I am not confident a court will necessarily view it the way we would prefer.

I think you have to realise that when you take seven words out of a sentence rather than quoting the whole sentence, you start to lose meaning. For clarity, I believe the quoted words come from the following sentence:

When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you
make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.

For Further clarity, "Train Companies" is a defined term in the NRCoC.

 

[bb21]

Yeah, I found that one, hence my edit. I now think this perhaps was the case originally but no longer.

Would delete my post as misleading, however it's been quoted enough that it would require the mods to do some general editing, so I will leave it in place with the edit suggesting that it is probably wrong.

Neil

Don't worry about it. A discussion on why it may be wrong is far more useful than simply deleting a string of posts.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yeah, I found that one, hence my edit. I now think this perhaps was the case originally but no longer....

I've worked on the railway for 15 years, eight of them in London, and I've never know it to be the case (except for Heathrow Express), I've only ever known a minority of staff members claim it to be the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've worked on the railway for 15 years, eight of them in London, and I've never know it to be the case (except for Heathrow Express), I've only ever known a minority of staff members claim it to be the case.

Possibly I did get it from a misinformed member of staff, then.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Possibly I did get it from a misinformed member of staff, then.

Neil

For all I know I could be misinformed.

 

[furlong]

Interesting, the ticket I was issued at Paddington was Route: Any Permitted and didn't explicitly mention Heathrow Express anywhere!

Then how can that be valid on Heathrow Express according to the terms under which the ticket was issued?

8.12 The trains you can use and the times you can travel
Tickets are only valid on Heathrow Express trains if they say so explicitly.

8.5 Authority of a Railway Operator’s staff or agents
Neither our nor any other Railway Operator’s staff or agents have any authority to waive or change these Conditions

Entering into contracts that require customers and staff to violate contractual terms as a matter of routine? What a strange way to run a business!

(Are there any valid fares currently available for this journey, or is it effectively free at present? ...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

(Are there any valid fares currently available for this journey, or is it effectively free at present? ...)

These are they:

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=PAD&dest=H584

Note that it's "Any Permitted" that is valid on HEx, not "NOT HEATHROW EXP" which is the only one that mentions it!

So that T&C entry is nonsense. But for some reason HEx do seem to be able to get away with murder, as it were.

Neil

 

[furlong]

But wouldn't all four of those fall foul of condition 8.12 if they were issued in violation of 8.5 for use on Heathrow Express?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think possibly that is something that has not been updated. IIRC, tickets for Heathrow Express used to only be available from 'London Terminals' and were issued to a destination of 'Heathrow Express'. That changed after Heathrow Connect started running, when the destination changed to 'Heathrow Rail'.