Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[deltic08]

Not being totally au fait with the actualities of the area, it appears from what my historical researches as part of running the Closed Stations Journey quiz that two former railway companies had lines with stations in the area of Lugton and that one of these lines had the now-demolished Gree Viaduct upon it:-

Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway
Lugton High...Opened in May 1903 and closed in July 1932 (83 years ago)

Glasgow, Barrhead and Kilmarnock Joint Railway
Lugton...Opened in March 1871 and closed in 1966 (49 years ago)

Thank you for your concern Paul but no viaducts between Lugton and Neilston-just. Gree Viaduct is about half a mile the other side of the GBKJR. I didn't even know it had been demolished. Very sad when these heritage structures are lost.

 

[jeemac]

Last time I travelled the M90 in September was on the top deck of a shuttle bus from Gleneagles Ryder Cup. I was able to have a really good look here with reinstatement in mind.

Not much of the total route is lost to the M90. A mile at the former Glenfarg station and a mile of Glenfarg bank just to the north of Glenfarg tunnel.

Rock was removed at Falahill for construction aggregate on Borders railway and the quarry infilled afterwards. Why not create a long thin quarry at former Glenfarg station for construction aggregate but lay rails along it instead of filling it in!!! Simples.

Glenfarg bank would be a more complicated solution having to tunnel under or bridge over the M90.

The current journey time from Edinburgh to Perth by train is far too long by either route to be competitive/attractive. Edinburgh-Perth should be no longer than Edinburgh-Glasgow of similar length.

While much public and enthusiast campaigning focussed on the loss of the Waverley route, arguably the closure of the direct Dunfermline - Perth link was a much bigger strategic mistake. Replacing it would take something like 30 - 50 minutes off modern Perth-Edinburgh timings, add resiliance to Edinburgh- Dundee-Aberdeen services, and provide a service to Bridge of Earn, Glenfarg, Kinross, Kelty and other surrounding communities.

Deltic08 is right - really there are only two really big engineering challenges - through the gorge at Glenfarg and crossing the M90 between Glenfarg and Bridge of Earn. Apparently the tunnels and viaduct at Glenfarg are all in good condition, and I gather are still maintained by NR. (There are loads of good recent photos online see here and here)

 

[najaB]

Replacing it would take something like 30 - 50 minutes off modern Perth-Edinburgh timings, add resiliance to Edinburgh- Dundee-Aberdeen services, and provide a service to Bridge of Earn, Glenfarg, Kinross, Kelty and other surrounding communities.

It sounds like there's a pressure campaign needed - where do I sign up?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone have a .kml file or similar showing the original route? I've tried finding it using Google maps satellite view but haven't had much success.

 

[deltic08]

While much public and enthusiast campaigning focussed on the loss of the Waverley route, arguably the closure of the direct Dunfermline - Perth link was a much bigger strategic mistake. Replacing it would take something like 30 - 50 minutes off modern Perth-Edinburgh timings, add resiliance to Edinburgh- Dundee-Aberdeen services, and provide a service to Bridge of Earn, Glenfarg, Kinross, Kelty and other surrounding communities.

Deltic08 is right - really there are only two really big engineering challenges - through the gorge at Glenfarg and crossing the M90 between Glenfarg and Bridge of Earn. Apparently the tunnels and viaduct at Glenfarg are all in good condition, and I gather are still maintained by NR. (There are loads of good recent photos online see here and here)

I think we were all still quite numb and shocked from all the Beeching closures in the mid to late 1960s and this one sort of slipped through. But behind the deception was a hidden agenda, the purpose of putting the M90 through a narrow gorge as cheaply as possible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It sounds like there's a pressure campaign needed - where do I sign up?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone have a .kml file or similar showing the original route? I've tried finding it using Google maps satellite view but haven't had much success.

I am heavily involved with reinstating a railway back to Ripon, but if anybody north of the Border starts a "Glenfarg" campaign then I would join also.

I have happy memories of pounding up Glenfarg bank one evening behind A4 60011 and on the next years holiday double headed class 26s on the overnight Inverness-Edinburgh conveying sleeping cars.

 

[Altnabreac]

Perth - Edinburgh direct is something which both Scottish Government and Transport Scotland are aware of.

A new Inverkeithing - Halbeath (north east of Dunfermline) line is official long term policy in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR).

An extension of that line North to Kinross and Perth has been suggested by a few people, not least the influential think tank Transform Scotland:
http://transformscotland.org.uk/intercityexpress/?page_id=103

Any new line is likely to be built to higher speed standards (maybe even 250km/hr or so) and have much new alignment alongside the M90 and in tunnel around Glenfarg.

To make the business case add up I suspect you would also need a link across the Tay to St Madoes so you could divert Edinburgh - Dundee - Aberdeen services onto the line as well.

 

[Tobbes]

If you're going to reopen Glenfarg in whatever form (a good idea, especially if it was HSR), then the reopening of the route from Perth - Forfar - Kinnaber Junction - potentially as an HSR - would also be excellent. (Forfar always struck me as a particularly pointless, and very late, loss to the network).

 

[Pianodentist]

For NE Scotland to propose old meldrum and Lossiemouth mouth and not deeside and buchan is bizarre and actually threatens credibility of the whole thing. The old meldrum branch was closed in 1931!!!. Buchan and deeside ( built for double track to Banchory)and perfectly preserved as walkways and would do massive good in reducing pressure on A96 and a90 if reopened

 

[SignalSighting]

To make the business case add up I suspect you would also need a link across the Tay to St Madoes so you could divert Edinburgh - Dundee - Aberdeen services onto the line as well.

Interestingly the very first plans for the Tay Bridge had the railway crossing the river at Mugdrum Island, between Newburgh and Errol. See Prof. Charles McKeen's book "The Battle For The North".

 

[deltic08]

If you're going to reopen Glenfarg in whatever form (a good idea, especially if it was HSR), then the reopening of the route from Perth - Forfar - Kinnaber Junction - potentially as an HSR - would also be excellent. (Forfar always struck me as a particularly pointless, and very late, loss to the network).

North from Forfar should be new build via Brechin to a point south of Stonehaven. This would give sub 2 hour times to Glasgow and Edinburgh that will never happen on the tortuous route via Arbroath and Montrose.

 

[clc]

Line to Ellon could be re-opened using City Deal money:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...line-ellon-re-opened-part-3billion-city-deal/

 

[sheeldz]

Not sure if this has been posted, but it fits well into the expansions of the Glasgow network.

http://angusdoyledesign.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/glasgow-transport-map.html

 

[me123]

The idea has legs. Ellon is already a key park-and-ride site for North Aberdeenshire and an important town in the area. Extension to Peterhead would be possible in the future pending the success (or otherwise) of Ellon.

Of course, you have to wonder if the current issues with the oil industry would make such a link less attractive at this time. In Aberdeen, you're not likely to generate new jobs whilst the oil prices remain so low, with or without the rail link.

 

[clc]

Of course, you have to wonder if the current issues with the oil industry would make such a link less attractive at this time. In Aberdeen, you're not likely to generate new jobs whilst the oil prices remain so low, with or without the rail link.

The north east of Scotland needs to diversify away from it's dependence on oil and it'll be seeking a lot of government help do this. The transport infrastructure up there is woeful at the moment. Thankfully they are belatedly starting to sort out the roads; let's see how serious politicians are about making the rail infrastructure fit for purpose.

 

[me123]

Hopefully they're going to get serious about public transport.

I have a ridiculously long walk to work with no feasible public transport alternative - although there are plenty of buses up here, the network is very radial so unless you're going to Union Street it's pretty useless. It's also frighteningly expensive for a very poor quality service. I could rant about First Aberdeen quite a lot, but won't bore you with it!

The trains are good on the whole, with major improvements coming to the Aberdeen-Inverness line in due course (which will see 2tph to Inverurie and 1tph to Inverness - a much needed boost), and hopefully a potential service to Ellon would work well in this respect. It would be relatively easy to find 2tph to Ellon, although I'd expect that you'd also need to double the line to Dyce and probably re-open platform 8 at Aberdeen in order to do this - both of which are definitely within the realms of possibility.

The sad reality about Aberdeen is that it is wholly dependent on oil. It is a failure of the city as a whole that they have allowed the city to become dependent on one finite resource. Whilst I think projects such as this have potential to develop Aberdeen beyond fossil fuels, I wonder if it's going to be too little to late. The oil price has fallen, jobs are being lost (although i hear that it's not all that bad considering). A recovery is possible, but even then it won't be long until the oil boom in Aberdeen dies. So many people in Aberdeen now aren't from the North East, and lots of people don't really haves strong ties. If oil continues to decline, they'll simply pack up and leave.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I can foresee Aberdeen becoming much less significant, much less competitive, and much less affluent within my lifetime.

 

[clc]

I would like to think it's never too late. Look at the transformation of Glasgow - who would have thought 30 years ago it would become a major conference and tourist destination? And what about the tremendous regeneration going on in Dundee?

With the right leadership and support in all tiers of government I'm sure Aberdeen can reinvent itself.

 

[me123]

But I think the downfall needs to come first. (Although, to be honest, I think some people up here really need a but of a reality check).

 

[clc]

From what I've read the council hasn't been covering itself in glory in recent times, eg. ignoring public opinion on plans for Union St Gardens and Marischal Square. And didn't the previous leader take the bizarre decision to ban SNP Ministers from all public buildings? The council seems to have lost it's way recently but at least the voters can do something about that.

 

[kylemore]

But I think the downfall needs to come first. (Although, to be honest, I think some people up here really need a but of a reality check).

Just as a side issue has the oil "crisis" had any effect on the ambitious plans to develop a new port for Aberdeen?

 

[clc]

There's an article in the Penicuik Cuckoo about the Edinburgh City Deal. It's somewhat pessimistic about the chances of funds being allocated to reopen the Penicuik line, stating that it offers minimal scope for growth and at £150m it would cost 15% of the total City Deal budget. Points out that the line would likely miss the Bush Science Park which does have growth potential. GDP growth being a critical factor in City Deals.

Seems more optimistic about the Hawick extension happening:

http://www.penicuikcuckoo.co.uk/

 

[Rick1984]

Out of interest where would the Kilmarnock line connect to the City Union Line as part of Crossrail.
The original alignment is now a car park [ http://goo.gl/maps/pnyjL]?

 

[St Rollox]

I would like to think it's never too late. Look at the transformation of Glasgow - who would have thought 30 years ago it would become a major conference and tourist destination? And what about the tremendous regeneration going on in Dundee?

With the right leadership and support in all tiers of government I'm sure Aberdeen can reinvent itself.

It's unbelievable the number of hotels that have been built in Glasgow since the 1980s.
A new hotel opened only weeks ago facing BBC Scotland.
Plus the three major football grounds had been entirely rebuilt, although that went a bit AWOL with the Rangers saga.
At one point it was impossible to get a hotel room when even a run of the mill league game was on.
A major plus was the new Hydro arena.
All in all Glasgow is trying its best.

 

[clc]

I've come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely the Scottish Government will fund any more line re-openings this side of 2030. I'll explain why.

Firstly, it doesn't seem to be a priority. The Scottish Government's Infrastructure Investment Plan shows it's transport priorities for the next 15 years:-

Rail schemes
Aberdeen to Inverness Improvements: £250m - £500m
Highland Mainline Improvements - £250m - £600m
Aberdeen to Central Belt Improvements: £250m - £600m
Glasgow-Edinburgh High Speed Rail: £2-3 billion?
Glasgow Terminal Stations - £1.3 billion -£3 billion
There's also the rolling programme of electrification which isn't in the IIP: £1 billion plus?

Road schemes
A9 Dualling - £3 billion
A96 Dualling - £3 billion
A82 upgrades - £200m
Targeted improvements (eg. Dalry Bypass, Maybole Bypass): £100-£250m

Ferry and harbour projects: £400m

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/7221/1

Secondly, the SG's budget is set to fall further and it has very limited borrowing powers.

Thirdly, the SG will have new welfare responsibilities to fund and will inevitably seek to prove it's commitment to social justice by mitigating some of Osborne's cuts. The SNP won't increase taxes so that will mean additional cuts elsewhere.

Given the circumstances theyll be doing well to deliver their stated priorities never mind fund some additional ones.

So if any re-openings are to happen it will be down to the councils to fund them. City Deals mean there is still some grounds for optimism.

 

[Altnabreac]

I've come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely the Scottish Government will fund any more line re-openings this side of 2030. I'll explain why.

Firstly, it doesn't seem to be a priority. The Scottish Government's Infrastructure Investment Plan shows it's transport priorities for the next 15 years:-

Rail schemes
Aberdeen to Inverness Improvements: £250m - £500m
Highland Mainline Improvements - £250m - £600m
Aberdeen to Central Belt Improvements: £250m - £600m
Glasgow-Edinburgh High Speed Rail: £2-3 billion?
Glasgow Terminal Stations - £1.3 billion -£3 billion
There's also the rolling programme of electrification which isn't in the IIP: £1 billion plus?

Road schemes
A9 Dualling - £3 billion
A96 Dualling - £3 billion
A82 upgrades - £200m
Targeted improvements (eg. Dalry Bypass, Maybole Bypass): £100-£250m

Ferry and harbour projects: £400m

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/7221/1

Secondly, the SG's budget is set to fall further and it has very limited borrowing powers.

Thirdly, the SG will have new welfare responsibilities to fund and will inevitably seek to prove it's commitment to social justice by mitigating some of Osborne's cuts. The SNP won't increase taxes so that will mean additional cuts elsewhere.

Given the circumstances theyll be doing well to deliver their stated priorities never mind fund some additional ones.

So if any re-openings are to happen it will be down to the councils to fund them. City Deals mean there is still some grounds for optimism.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about City Deals funding any but the most small scale local schemes. They just aren't structured to fund large scale infrastructure projects in this phase (Glasgow one was a bit different but even here the GARL element seems to have stalled somewhat.

Otherwise I kind of agree. STPR looks towards a 2030 horizon which is 15 years away and the currently agreed or planned schemes you list above are likely to take that time to deliver.

However it's probably a fools game to predict schemes more than 10 years in the future.

2016 looks a predictable election but another 5 years and it could all change.

Post the 2021 Holyrood elections there could be a coalition government, Green MSPs could hold a balance of power and demand funding for reopening Botanic Gardens, Labour could insist on GARL for supporting a budget, Lib Dems on Borders Rail to Hawick or an Independent MSP in the North East could hold the balance of power and demand funding for a Peterhead reopening.

So broadly I agree but things can change quickly once politicians get involved. High Speed Rail was nowhere when the STPR was drawn up 8 years ago but is a big priority now.

 

[Highland37]

I agree to a point but both the above posts presume the same governmental systems, and constitutional set up, as we have currently. I don't think that is a safe assumption at all. Things are fluid.

 

[tbtc]

I've come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely the Scottish Government will fund any more line re-openings this side of 2030

I don't think that'd be a terrible thing, as long as the Scottish Government remain committed to the current programme of electrifying virtually every line in the central belt over the next ten/fifteen years...

...remain committed to some form of High Speed line (both between Edinburgh and Glasgow and also towards England)...

...and remain committed to the general increase in capacity that Scotland is seeing on existing routes.

After reopening to A2B/ Gorebridge/ Larkhall/ Alloa etc, there aren't a huge number of attractive re-openings with decent business cases left.

I'm less bothered about whether a proposed line (like a line to Renfrew, GARL, Penicuik) follows some abandoned 1960s alignment.

(keeping politics out of it)

 

[Tobbes]

I agree to a point but both the above posts presume the same governmental systems, and constitutional set up, as we have currently. I don't think that is a safe assumption at all. Things are fluid.

Presumably you mean that you think that there's going to be IndyRef2 sometime soon - though the SNP have ruled this out unless they think that they're going to win it?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I've come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely the Scottish Government will fund any more line re-openings this side of 2030. I'll explain why.

Firstly, it doesn't seem to be a priority. The Scottish Government's Infrastructure Investment Plan shows it's transport priorities for the next 15 years:-

Rail schemes
Aberdeen to Inverness Improvements: £250m - £500m
Highland Mainline Improvements - £250m - £600m
Aberdeen to Central Belt Improvements: £250m - £600m
Glasgow-Edinburgh High Speed Rail: £2-3 billion?
Glasgow Terminal Stations - £1.3 billion -£3 billion
There's also the rolling programme of electrification which isn't in the IIP: £1 billion plus?

Road schemes
A9 Dualling - £3 billion
A96 Dualling - £3 billion
A82 upgrades - £200m
Targeted improvements (eg. Dalry Bypass, Maybole Bypass): £100-£250m

Ferry and harbour projects: £400m

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/7221/1

Secondly, the SG's budget is set to fall further and it has very limited borrowing powers.

Thirdly, the SG will have new welfare responsibilities to fund and will inevitably seek to prove it's commitment to social justice by mitigating some of Osborne's cuts. The SNP won't increase taxes so that will mean additional cuts elsewhere.

Given the circumstances theyll be doing well to deliver their stated priorities never mind fund some additional ones.

So if any re-openings are to happen it will be down to the councils to fund them. City Deals mean there is still some grounds for optimism.

Good points but some smaller scale rail reopenings in Scotland like the Levenmouth link, which involves reopening 5 miles of track along a disused but clear alignment and costs around 77m, so should be possible alongside the projects you mention. In fact a decision on that project will have to be taken in the next 10 years before electrification of the Fife circle services or the costs of reopening will increase further.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenmouth_rail_link

 

[IanXC]

Presumably you mean that you think that there's going to be IndyRef2 sometime soon - though the SNP have ruled this out unless they think that they're going to win it?

I think there are 3 key scenarios which could result in a further referendum soon:

• UK EU negotiations remove an "unacceptable" level of social protection, which the Scottish Government cannot reinstate using devolved powers.
• UK EU referendum result is to leave the EU, with Scotland voting to stay.
• The Scotland Bill fails to deliver the devolution promised.

Any of those I think are likely to result in a further vote, pretty promptly!

 

[clc]

I think there are 3 key scenarios which could result in a further referendum soon:

• UK EU negotiations remove an "unacceptable" level of social protection, which the Scottish Government cannot reinstate using devolved powers.
• UK EU referendum result is to leave the EU, with Scotland voting to stay.
• The Scotland Bill fails to deliver the devolution promised.

Any of those I think are likely to result in a further vote, pretty promptly!

I don't believe for a second that Sturgeon wants an early re-run but she knows she has to keep the possibility of an early vote alive to placate that section of her support that does. She's been quite clever to make it conditional on there being a significant change in public opinion to the extent there would have to be a clear majority for independence over a sustained period. Brexit is the only scenario that would trigger this in the next 5 years IMO.

 

[Highland37]

Agree with the above two posts. No point in losing a second one.

I am often flummoxed though by the business case point on reopenings. This seems to have become the exclusive measure of the value of a railway scheme. Social case, ease of operation and so on are all secondary to how much money this will make someone or cost.

At lease half the railways in Scotland would be shut if business case was the exclusive measure.

Too much reading of Ian Whalmsley!