Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[NotATrainspott]

Agree with the above two posts. No point in losing a second one.

I am often flummoxed though by the business case point on reopenings. This seems to have become the exclusive measure of the value of a railway scheme. Social case, ease of operation and so on are all secondary to how much money this will make someone or cost.

At lease half the railways in Scotland would be shut if business case was the exclusive measure.

Too much reading of Ian Whalmsley!

A better way to think about it is that the Scottish Government only has a limited amount of money to spend every year and they need to find the schemes which deserve the money most. Spending another X million reopening to Hawick might be a lovely idea but then that X million isn't available to spend on upgrading Aberdeen to Inverness or suchlike. Cutting away the existing rail network to fund improvements to the rest isn't feasible either, meaning that there's really no choice but to delay reopenings until they are the best possible use of money at that time.

I don't agree with the premise that there will be no reopenings at all in the next 15 years, as Leven would tie in extremely well with the electrification of the Fife Circle, would not have an enormous cost attached and would then provide the benefits of Edinburgh employment to a deprived area of the country.

 

[clc]

Levenmouth sounds like an ideal project to take forward via the Edinburgh and South East Scotland City Deal in which Fife Council is a partner.

 

[Altnabreac]

Agree with the above two posts. No point in losing a second one.

I am often flummoxed though by the business case point on reopenings. This seems to have become the exclusive measure of the value of a railway scheme. Social case, ease of operation and so on are all secondary to how much money this will make someone or cost.

At lease half the railways in Scotland would be shut if business case was the exclusive measure.

Too much reading of Ian Whalmsley!

To be fair STAG appraisal is good at looking at the Wider Economic Benefits of schemes and a reopening like Levenmouth would likely progress based on it's regeneration potential rather than a pure business case.

The thing stalling Levenmouth is it falls between two stools of not quite being big enough to be a "national" scheme but a bit too large for Fife Council to fund locally.

For a roads equivalent look at a scheme like the A801 Avon Gorge. STPR identifies it as a priority but how to fund it?
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Levenmouth sounds like an ideal project to take forward via the Edinburgh and South East Scotland City Deal in which Fife Council is a partner.

City Deal on the other hand is tied very closely to the bottom line. Levenmouth is very unlikely to be majority funded from this source unless it has a stronger business case than I would expect it to have.

All City Deal projects have to pay back their costs, with interest, through measurable economic benefits.

Very hard for a scheme like this.

 

[MarkRedon]

Not specifically mentioned in this thread is the university town of St Andrews, for which a very good reopening case can be made and for which an active support group exists: see http://www.starlink-campaign.org.uk/.

 

[najaB]

Not specifically mentioned in this thread is the university town of St Andrews, for which a very good reopening case can be made and for which an active support group exists: see http://www.starlink-campaign.org.uk/.

The biggest obstacle to reopening Leuchars-St Andrews is the fact the junction faced the 'wrong' way - requiring a reversal for direct services from the south, or some land grab to build a new alignment. Other than that I agree that it is a good candidate.

 

[Altnabreac]

Not specifically mentioned in this thread is the university town of St Andrews, for which a very good reopening case can be made and for which an active support group exists: see http://www.starlink-campaign.org.uk/.

Among the flaws of Starlink are:
Junction faced wrong way.
Leuchars is close by so time saving would be limited.
No obvious service to extend so more paths into the crowded Waverley western throat needed.
Difficult station site with little car parking potential.
Potential detriment to setting of the Old Course.
Relatively small population, of which relatively few are likely to commute because of the large number of both students and academics.
Relatively long journey time to Edinburgh that is at the edge of regular commuting distance.
Affluent town so little regeneration potential.
Local plan assigns little housing expansion to St Andrews and more growth likely to be controversial with locals.
What housing growth there is in the area is more likely to be around Leuchars anyway.

I won't say it will never happen (better case than Hawick - Carlisle say) but I think it has a fairly poor business case and certainly wouldn't make a top 5 Scottish reopening schemes and probably be towards the bottom of a top 10.

 

[MarkRedon]

The biggest obstacle to reopening Leuchars-St Andrews is the fact the junction faced the 'wrong' way - requiring a reversal for direct services from the south, or some land grab to build a new alignment. Other than that I agree that it is a good candidate.

You make a good point so far as the previous alignment is concerned. The Tata Steel consultancy reopening report produced in 2012 suggests a 50 mph north-facing Moonzie junction for Dundee and a 60 mph south-facing Seggiehill junction for Edinburgh. The report and revised alignment map can be downloaded from the StARlink website.

 

[Railsigns]

Among the flaws of Starlink are:
Junction faced wrong way.
Leuchars is close by so time saving would be limited.
No obvious service to extend so more paths into the crowded Waverley western throat needed.

Why must the service be St. Andrews - Edinburgh? Why not St. Andrews - Dundee (or Carnoustie), with a change at Leuchars for Edinburgh?

 

[najaB]

Why must the service be St. Andrews - Edinburgh? Why not St. Andrews - Dundee (or Carnoustie), with a change at Leuchars for Edinburgh?

Because Edinburgh-Dundee-St Andrews is no faster nor any more convenient than Edinburgh-Leuchars-St Andrews (by bus).

Edit: Sorry, misread your post. Because, based on personal observation, 90% of the demand to St. Andrews is from points south.

 

[Altnabreac]

Why must the service be St. Andrews - Edinburgh? Why not St. Andrews - Dundee (or Carnoustie), with a change at Leuchars for Edinburgh?

Because demand is southwards. If you're changing in Leuchars anyway why not get the bus from closer to your door or more likely drive (lack of car park at potential St Andrews station site being the big flaw).

I don't think Dundee's labour market is (currently) sufficiently strong for it to justify rail reopenings through commuter demand. Only Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen in Scotland provide enough demand to meet my golden rules.

 

[Highland37]

I wonder how the re-opening of the line from Aberdeen to Fraserburgh and Peterhead might be viewed? I know it's not from Aberdeen but use this for a simple term

 

[najaB]

I wonder how the re-opening of the line from Aberdeen to Fraserburgh and Peterhead might be viewed? I know it's not from Aberdeen but use this for a simple term

Quite favourably - I believe it is on the list of the most likely reopenings / new lines. It has a pretty good business case and not much of the trackbed has been built on. There is a case to be made for deviation from the old route.

 

[clc]

City Deal on the other hand is tied very closely to the bottom line. Levenmouth is very unlikely to be majority funded from this source unless it has a stronger business case than I would expect it to have.

All City Deal projects have to pay back their costs, with interest, through measurable economic benefits.

Very hard for a scheme like this.

Although Gross Value Added (jobs and productivity) is used as the principal metric against which prospective City Deal projects are appraised and prioritised it is possible to establish a set of additional programme minima to ensure the infrastructure investments result in a fair geographic spread of benefits and, importantly, target areas of deprivation. The Clyde Valley councils for example decided that above average increases in employment connectivity should be delivered for the 25% most deprived areas as defined by the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation.

Not every City Deal project has to have a big impact on GVA as long as the economic growth delivered by the programme overall meets the target set by central government.

Anyway, the BCR for Levenmouth was 1.5-1.99 based on extending Kirkcaldy services. That's quite a healthy return on investment.

 

[Class 170101]

Anyway, the BCR for Levenmouth was 1.5-1.99 based on extending Kirkcaldy services. That's quite a healthy return on investment.

What Kirkcaldy services?

I can only see a few services a day that could possibly run through using existing services
To /from Glasgow 1 each way
To Edinburgh 5 in total

 

[najaB]

What Kirkcaldy services?

I can only see a few services a day that could possibly run through using existing services
To /from Glasgow 1 each way
To Edinburgh 5 in total

Depending on the times that could be enough to get a service up and running. Then add a single unit to run a shuttle to Kirkcaldy as the patronage increases.

 

[Altnabreac]

Although Gross Value Added (jobs and productivity) is used as the principal metric against which prospective City Deal projects are appraised and prioritised it is possible to establish a set of additional programme minima to ensure the infrastructure investments result in a fair geographic spread of benefits and, importantly, target areas of deprivation. The Clyde Valley councils for example decided that above average increases in employment connectivity should be delivered for the 25% most deprived areas as defined by the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation.

Not every City Deal project has to have a big impact on GVA as long as the economic growth delivered by the programme overall meets the target set by central government.

Anyway, the BCR for Levenmouth was 1.5-1.99 based on extending Kirkcaldy services. That's quite a healthy return on investment.

Can't say much more on this subject but the current generation of City Deals are very different to the Glasgow one. My advice: Don't get your hopes up.

 

[route:oxford]

The biggest obstacle to reopening Leuchars-St Andrews is the fact the junction faced the 'wrong' way - requiring a reversal for direct services from the south, or some land grab to build a new alignment. Other than that I agree that it is a good candidate.

Then go the other way?

A "Salami" opening from Leven.

 

[QueensCurve]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...]Golf Line[/I] from St Andrews to Carnoustie.

 

[najaB]

Then go the other way?

A "Salami" opening from Leven.

I tried a quick 'Google Maps Survey' and it looks like the rail bed is relatively clear, but it would be much more expensive than building a new south-facing junction in the Leuchars area.
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Why direct services from the South?

Because that's where visitors to St. Andrews tend to come from. I don't think Carnoustie-St. Andrews golf traffic is enough to justify a heavy rail link. Happy to be proven wrong though.

 

[QueensCurve]

Because that's where visitors to St. Andrews tend to come from. I don't think Carnoustie-St. Andrews golf traffic is enough to justify a heavy rail link. Happy to be proven wrong though.

I am a little out of date on the Dundee Scene at the moment, but there has been a lot of new development in the Riverside area and on the site of the Sea Braes and former Dundee West Station area. This is very handy for the existing station. Potentially there is commuter traffic generated by this and the availability of a cross-city line might in itself help the regeneration of the City.

I proposed "Golf Line" purely a a branding suggestion.

As regards traffic coming predominantly from the south, Leuchars station has an Island platform reflecting it's former, and possible future, role as an interchange station.

 

[najaB]

I am a little out of date on the Dundee Scene at the moment, but there has been a lot of new development in the Riverside area and on the site of the Sea Braes and former Dundee West Station area. This is very handy for the existing station. Potentially there is commuter traffic generated by this and the availability of a cross-city line might in itself help the regeneration of the City.

Indeed there is a lot happening in Dundee, the Riverside project is well underway and even the V&A is above foundation level now. It remains to be seen how much this will do to bring additional jobs to the city as there are quite a few empty premises both in the city centre and in the out of centre business parks. As an example the 1000-desk Norwich Union... sorry Aviva building has sat empty since they moved their main offices to Perth about 6 years ago. There probably is a case for a cross city line, but I'd suggest that Carnoustie-Perth with a moved Invergowrie station and a re-opened Errol station would have a better business case than Carnoustie-St. Andrews. But happy to be proven wrong.

I proposed "Golf Line" purely a a branding suggestion.

I like it.

As regards traffic coming predominantly from the south, Leuchars station has an Island platform reflecting it's former, and possible future, role as an interchange station.

It still is. Just to bus rather than train. Without a south-facing junction it just doesn't add up as passengers will still have to make a connection.

 

[railjock]

Indeed there is a lot happening in Dundee, the Riverside project is well underway and even the V&A is above foundation level now. It remains to be seen how much this will do to bring additional jobs to the city as there are quite a few empty premises both in the city centre and in the out of centre business parks. As an example the 1000-desk Norwich Union... sorry Aviva building has sat empty since they moved their main offices to Perth about 6 years ago. There probably is a case for a cross city line, but I'd suggest that Carnoustie-Perth with a moved Invergowrie station and a re-opened Errol station would have a better business case than Carnoustie-St. Andrews. But happy to be proven wrong.
I like it.
It still is. Just to bus rather than train. Without a south-facing junction it just doesn't add up as passengers will still have to make a connection.

Traffic for St Andrews would predominately come from and go south be it students going to/from their parental homes or Golfers going to/from the central belt and EdinburghOr Glasgow airports.

There must surely be slots available given fife circle trains mean the line is busier south of Thornton junction?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Traffic for St Andrews would predominately come from and go south be it students going to/from their parental homes or Golfers going to/from the central belt and EdinburghOr Glasgow airports.

There must surely be slots available given fife circle trains mean the line is busier south of Thornton junction?

The Tata Steel report said that there is an hourly timetable slot available. If there weren't, then the St Andrews project would need to include other capacity enhancements which would then diminish the business case quite a bit if they weren't rolled into a larger programme. There have been some capacity improvements done already on the Haymarket-Inverkeithing section, including four-aspect signalling, so it may well be not impossible to run another service.

 

[MarkRedon]

The same Tata Steel report, which is by now five years old, also identified a separate path from St Andrews to Dundee. In any event, a simple feasibility study is a very long way from a complete STAG process. In particular, the report identifies costs (in some detail, though they "feel" on the low side to me) and direct benefits. It stops short of identifying BCR estimates.

I bow to the greater wisdom and local knowledge of other posters concerning whether running an end-to-end Dundee – St Andrews – Edinburgh service might be practicable and attractive for through journeys. Earlier comments suggest that a better alternative would be to run a cross-Dundee service north from St Andrews and keep it separate from the Edinburgh service. Please enlighten me further!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Earlier comments suggest that a better alternative would be to run a cross-Dundee service north from St Andrews and keep it separate from the Edinburgh service. Please enlighten me further!

Lack of platforms anywhere en route to loop a north or south bound service is the issue. I did hope when Dundee was rebuilt, they would have started off with a giant hole in the ground at Tay Bridge (as was) and fit another pair of through platforms, but alas, the platform level isn't being changed.

The possibility, post electrification, would be for a Class 320 type 3 car EMU (75mph to 90mph range) to run all station stopping services, giving Arbroath, Carnoustie, Monifieth, Broughty Ferry, Dundee, possibly a new Dundee Parkway on the south side of the bridge, Leuchars and St Andrews a half hourly service.

 

[Photohunter71]

There is a case for Haddington, infact, most of East Lothian and the Borders. I suggest those who Pooh-Pooh the suggestion take a look at "The great central belt project" with 1000's more houses etc being built on the gaps between Eyemouth to Ayrshire. (Linlithgow and Winchburgh are such exmples).
There should be a link to Penicuik as much of the distillery line is still there between Danderhall and Gilmerton station. Rail network expansion should be welcomed,and here's hoping a compromise can be reached with the Edinburgh Suburban loop seeing it's going to lose another freight consignment (steel slabs to Dalzell)
Let's get the capacity and also a bit of forward thinking,it's possible.

 

[QueensCurve]

Indeed there is a lot happening in Dundee, the Riverside project is well underway and even the V&A is above foundation level now. It remains to be seen how much this will do to bring additional jobs to the city as there are quite a few empty premises both in the city centre and in the out of centre business parks. As an example the 1000-desk Norwich Union... sorry Aviva building has sat empty since they moved their main offices to Perth about 6 years ago. There probably is a case for a cross city line, but I'd suggest that Carnoustie-Perth with a moved Invergowrie station and a re-opened Errol station would have a better business case than Carnoustie-St. Andrews. But happy to be proven wrong.
I like it.
It still is. Just to bus rather than train. Without a south-facing junction it just doesn't add up as passengers will still have to make a connection.

Note the point about Perth/Invergowrie. Alternate services from Carnoustie to Perth or St A?

The bus doesn't make a cross platform interchange with the train. Also there is the more general question of whether a busstitution is as attractive as a train. When I was a post-graduate at St Andrews (1983-85)[Oxford Comma] I either parked at Leuchars or got a taxi.
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Lack of platforms anywhere en route to loop a north or south bound service is the issue. I did hope when Dundee was rebuilt, they would have started off with a giant hole in the ground at Tay Bridge (as was) and fit another pair of through platforms, but alas, the platform level isn't being changed.

Platforms 1 and 4 at Dundee are bidirectional. Immediately after remodelling in 1985 it was the practice for the Aberdeen to Glasgow to Run "wrong line" and provide a cross platform interchange into the Dundee to Edinburgh. The two trains were parallel routed out of the station.

Perhaps this could help with looping the cross city?

The parallel arrival from Perth and Leuchars into Dundee isn't possible because of the lack of a facing crossover on the Tay Bridge approach ramp. Given that a Turnout speed of only 25mph that presumably would not be too difficult to provide?

 

[dcsprior]

There should be a link to Penicuik as much of the distillery line is still there between Danderhall and Gilmerton station.

This route also has the potential for significant additional Park & Ride capacity (incl perhaps bus interchange) alongside the city bypass. Would it perhaps be worth a phase delivering this P&R capacity now, with the possibility to extend south later.

I do have a bit of an interest here as although the line would likely not be useful for me, it would mean that the roads and busses I do use would be less busy.

 

[Altnabreac]

Penicuik does have potential and most of the route from Gilmerton to Milton Bridge is reasonably clear.

It never got very close to Penicuik itself but a bus served Park & Ride site would be a reasonable prospect.

The difficulties however are between Gilmerton and Newcraighall.

The new Borders Rail alignment through Shawfair cuts right across the old Penicuik alignment and the power lines south of Shawfair make a new alignment tricky.

Even more problematic is the new road layout through Shawfair and around Sheriffhall Park & Ride which takes no account of any reopening.

Midlothian Council have done a very poor job of safeguarding a future alignment here.

So Penicuik can be done but won't be cheap and will involve expensive changes to recently built infrastructure.

 

[backontrack]

Orkney is feasible.

Not sure why Skye hasn't already been connected. It's 10,000 people, the railway goes right up to the sea already, and you could even use the small island directly south of the station as a midway hop. From there you'd just follow the A87 up to Portree, or possibly Uig.

Or possible Dunvegan/Armadale.

I wonder where you'd put the stations for an Orkney line. Obviously it's not going to happen, but, if it did, where would be served?

One opening I'm supporting, however, is from Thurso to Scrabster. It would make a lot of sense.