Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[najaB]

Would they not want to be able to have even more people coming to St Andrews in future?

Are there really that many people who want to go to St Andrews but abandon the idea because of a bus/taxi from Leuchars?

 

[Altnabreac]

What I'm saying though is that there isn't a clear means by which they would be able to do anything other than make noise. The spur proposals wouldn't directly affect the R&A by requiring compulsory purchase of their land or anything of the sort. As a result, I can't really see why they would have a problem with the spur in the first place. Would they not want to be able to have even more people coming to St Andrews in future?

The people the R&A want visiting St Andrews come in an air conditioned Mercedes from Edinburgh Airport.

At a push their domestic visitors are happy enough to get a cab from Leuchars to their hotels.

Any railway will inevitably affect the setting of the courses and trigger strong objections.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The people the R&A want visiting St Andrews come in an air conditioned Mercedes from Edinburgh Airport.

At a push their domesti

c visitors are happy enough to get a cab from Leuchars to their hotels.

Any railway will inevitably affect the setting of the courses and trigger strong objections.

I don't want to disagree with you, as you're always right, but I find Royal Troon to look just fine with its electrified railway running down the side of the course.

Golf courses and railways have long been bed-fellows, and I think a railway line into St Andrews would go down just fine.

 

[Altnabreac]

I don't want to disagree with you, as you're always right, but I find Royal Troon to look just fine with its electrified railway running down the side of the course.

Golf courses and railways have long been bed-fellows, and I think a railway line into St Andrews would go down just fine.

I agree but doubt the R&A would. You can argue reinstating the railway would make the courses more authentic but I'm not sure they'll like that argument either!

 

[HowardGWR]

The people the R&A want visiting St Andrews come in an air conditioned Mercedes from Edinburgh Airport.

At a push their domestic visitors are happy enough to get a cab from Leuchars to their hotels.

Any railway will inevitably affect the setting of the courses and trigger strong objections.

What about the 'Uni'? Also the prospects for commuting?

 

[Altnabreac]

What about the 'Uni'? Also the prospects for commuting?

Uni isn't short of applicants. Probably won't object to a railway but no huge difference either way for them.

Just too far out to be very attractive for Edinburgh commuters and a station is unlikely to have much parking so park and ride commuters will still use Leuchars anyway. If Dundee waterfront really took off you could see that generating some commuting demand but probably not enough to make a business case.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Uni isn't short of applicants. Probably won't object to a railway but no huge difference either way for them.

Just too far out to be very attractive for Edinburgh commuters and a station is unlikely to have much parking so park and ride commuters will still use Leuchars anyway. If Dundee waterfront really took off you could see that generating some commuting demand but probably not enough to make a business case.

The point I was making earlier in this thread is that St Andrews is one of the few small towns with a growing economic status that doesn't depend upon it being within commutable distance of a major city. The University is a huge employer and it wants to continue growing, but it won't be able to if the transport links aren't good enough and the cost of accommodation continues to rise. People commute into St Andrews every day and their only option is to use the very congested road network, either in their own car or on the bus network. Building the railway would help to allow people working and studying in St Andrews to live well outside the town, not requiring any more suburban sprawl or road improvements which would ruin the character of the town, in both the Edinburgh and Dundee directions. I know of academic staff who commute all the way from Edinburgh every day by car and there are a good many people who live in Dundee who do the same, and the numbers could be even higher if a rail link were built.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The point I was making earlier in this thread is that St Andrews is one of the few small towns with a growing economic status that doesn't depend upon it being within commutable distance of a major city. The University is a huge employer and it wants to continue growing, but it won't be able to if the transport links aren't good enough and the cost of accommodation continues to rise. People commute into St Andrews every day and their only option is to use the very congested road network, either in their own car or on the bus network. Building the railway would help to allow people working and studying in St Andrews to live well outside the town, not requiring any more suburban sprawl or road improvements which would ruin the character of the town, in both the Edinburgh and Dundee directions. I know of academic staff who commute all the way from Edinburgh every day by car and there are a good many people who live in Dundee who do the same, and the numbers could be even higher if a rail link were built.

What about another couple of platforms at Leuchars and a tram between Leuchars and St Andrews, perhaps with a little on street running round North and South Street ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

What about another couple of platforms at Leuchars and a tram between Leuchars and St Andrews, perhaps with a little on street running round North and South Street ?

That would be effectively no different to the every-10-minute bus service that runs at the moment. The platform(s) at a hypothetical St Andrews railway station would be within walking distance of all the relevant destinations in town. What needs to happen is that then someone can walk to the train station (co-located with the current bus station), take a train and then leave the train to be in either in the very centre of Edinburgh or the heart of the new Dundee waterfront area.

 

[Esmenfif]

That would be effectively no different to the every-10-minute bus service that runs at the moment. The platform(s) at a hypothetical St Andrews railway station would be within walking distance of all the relevant destinations in town. What needs to happen is that then someone can walk to the train station (co-located with the current bus station), take a train and then leave the train to be in either in the very centre of Edinburgh or the heart of the new Dundee waterfront area.

As someone who has travelled between Edinburgh and St Andrews quite a few times, I can assure you that you can do what you've just described right now. The X59 bus is quick, comfortable, and cheap. The bus stations in both Edinburgh and St Andrews are perfectly located. There is an easy interchange with rail services at Waverley.

As much as I'm a train person, rather than a bus person, the re-opening of the link just doesn't make sense. I do not see how it could compete with the current bus service, which is excellent. The focus should be on improving service in isolated or cut-off areas, rather than adding service to areas that already have plenty. Given how difficult it seems to be to get rail projects done in this day and age, wasting that energy on a St Andrews link is un-needed.

Even so, I will say that one of my favourite railways is the East Fife (Fife Coast). In an ideal world, it would never have closed, or at least been retained as a heritage railway. I'd love to be able to travel on it. This world is not ideal, however.

 

[Southsider]

Slightly off topic but I recall my late father, a railway man all his working life, being well pleased with himself for securing a bunch of 'useless old posters' to lay under some new carpets. They were the iconic St Andrews posters which I believe now change hands for £thousands. Someone may be walking on a fortune without knowing it!

 

[railjock]

They have a noisy campaign group but I don't see them being a priority. They're well down the bottom of the top 10 Scottish reopening schemes and I suspect the biggest problem would be objections from the R&A.

Add that to a lack or regeneration opportunities, little development potential, tricky timetabling issues and you have a scheme that is unlikely to progress.

Levenmouth however alongside Grangemouth should be the 2 highest priority reopenings in Scotland in CP6.

Probably earlier in this thread! From memory (I'll probably come up with different order this time but give me a break as its late) something like maybe these 12 schemes as having a higher priority than St Andrews:

Levenmouth
Grangemouth
Penicuik
Hawick
Banchory
Peterhead (maybe only Ellon as phase 1)
Bridge of Weir
Renfrew
Edinburgh South Sub
Alloa - Dunfermline
Glasgow Crossrail (as a local not regional scheme)
Glasgow Airport Rail Link

Excluding strategic schemes like E-G High Speed Rail and Inverkeithing - Perth and capacity enhancements like Dalmeny Curve.

I'd only expect 1-2 schemes to be delivered in CP6 and it seems to me Levenmouth and Grangemouth are clear favourites.

I really can't see Penicuik ever being re-opened as heavy rail.

 

[tbtc]

St Andrews seems to have a bit of a reputation on here. Fair enough, many places do, I suppose. But look at reality, rather than the assumptions about how a railway there will only be used by Students going home at the end of term (or golfers turning up every five years etc). Look at where normal people are travelling every day...

One of the reasons against a railway there is that Leuchars has a fantastic bus service to St Andrews (nine an hour along the main road through Guardbridge – ignoring any slower services via Strathkinness). For a station with two trains an hour in each direction, that offers a relatively seamless range of connecting buses (and maybe weakens the case for a rail link into St A).

BUT, consider those services. Six of them are running on the main road from Dundee to St Andrews (i.e. ignoring the hourly service via Tayport). Dundee to St Andrews is a pretty busy corridor (ten minute frequency for places fifteen miles apart). A combination of increased Student numbers in St Andrews, increased property prices in St Andrews and virtually no housebuilding in/around St Andrews means that a lot of people now live in Dundee (where property is generally cheaper) and commute over the bridge (since there are some reasonably well paid jobs in St Andrews – not just University staff, though there are a few of them too). The University is moving into Guardbridge too, since it seems to have exhausted any building in St Andrews suitable for it.

I know that this goes against the orthodoxy of people commuting from a town into a bigger city, but Stagecoach seem know how to run a commercial bus service –they are running six buses an hour linking places fifteen miles apart – the market seems healthy enough and long enough for rail to be at least worth consideration. And, for those who don’t know the area, the buses are essentially non-stop from St Andrews to Guardbridge and from Leuchars to Dundee, given the lack of intermediate population (so it’s not as if the buses are penetrating intermediate places that heavy rail couldn’t tackle). Some of the other “frequent” bus corridors in Scotland (like the 11 in Ayrshire) don’t seem suitable for railways, but I think the 99 in Fife might be.

Whilst talk of a St Andrews railway seems stuck in the “must link to Edinburgh” mindset, I don’t see a reason why a service to (just) Dundee couldn’t work. No need to worry about chords being in the wrong direction at Leuchars. No need to worry about paths over the Forth Bridge. No need to worry about diverting services from Edinburgh to Dundee/ Aberdeen down a single track branch (slowing down long distance passengers or removing existing links) – just run a half hourly service from St Andrews to Carnoustie/ Arbroath (given the decent population along the banks of the Tay through Broughty Ferry/ Monifieth etc who aren’t well served by the current services from the Central Belt to Aberdeen).

And whilst a station at Wormit may only slow long distance passengers down, if you had a St Andrews – Carnoustie shuttle then that could be ideal for a Wormit station (potentially taking quite a few cars off the Tay Bridge).

St Andrews probably doesn’t need “regenerating”, granted. But what’s wrong with at least considering a corridor (St Andrews – Dundee) that has frequent enough bus services to suggest a market for heavy rail? Does every new line have to be about regenerating somewhere? In which case, we’d never have seen stations at places like Alloa or Laurencekirk – we’d stick to housing estates in Glasgow. I get that “regeneration” is a nice buzzword that makes things easier to “sell”, politically, but maybe there’s something to be said for focussing some resources on where people are actually travelling in 2015 (not just a SimCity version of urban regeneration)?

I’m not totally in favour of a St Andrews line, btw. There are a lot of potential problems (especially the balance between stopping short of the Swilken versus demolishing lots of expensive land east of the burn – why spend millions on a service that terminates near the Old Course but so far from the heart of St A that you need a shuttle bus to actually get anywhere near Market Street? The Stagecoach buses serve South Street/ Market Street etc, as well as residential areas beyond the town centre, which heavy rail couldn’t). There are a lot of bigger priorities (generally, I’m more in favour of improving existing lines/ services than opening old railway). But I think it’s been unfairly written off here, maybe because it doesn’t neatly fit the “direct services to Edinburgh and Glasgow” template, maybe because of an inverted snobbery about the place?

The point I was making earlier in this thread is that St Andrews is one of the few small towns with a growing economic status that doesn't depend upon it being within commutable distance of a major city. The University is a huge employer and it wants to continue growing, but it won't be able to if the transport links aren't good enough and the cost of accommodation continues to rise. People commute into St Andrews every day and their only option is to use the very congested road network, either in their own car or on the bus network. Building the railway would help to allow people working and studying in St Andrews to live well outside the town, not requiring any more suburban sprawl or road improvements which would ruin the character of the town, in both the Edinburgh and Dundee directions. I know of academic staff who commute all the way from Edinburgh every day by car and there are a good many people who live in Dundee who do the same, and the numbers could be even higher if a rail link were built.

Yours are by far the best comments re: St Andrews - it's not just about "golfers turning up every five years" - people are falling into the trap that they do on threads about places like Cornwall - if they've only visited as a tourist then they treat the place as if that's all a place exists for - ignoring the daily commuters and less glamorous travellers (maybe they don't have chauffeured driven Mercedes... )

 

[najaB]

St Andrews seems to have a bit of a reputation on here. Fair enough, many places do, I suppose. But look at reality, rather than the assumptions about how a railway there will only be used by Students going home at the end of term (or golfers turning up every five years etc). Look at where normal people are travelling every day...

St Andrews has a good case for reinstatement, but not as good as Leven (track extant though OOU) or Peterhead (much higher population). So I do see St. Andrews happening, just not before either of those two projects (or even Alloa-Dunfermline).

 

[NotATrainspott]

Whilst talk of a St Andrews railway seems stuck in the “must link to Edinburgh” mindset, I don’t see a reason why a service to (just) Dundee couldn’t work. No need to worry about chords being in the wrong direction at Leuchars. No need to worry about paths over the Forth Bridge. No need to worry about diverting services from Edinburgh to Dundee/ Aberdeen down a single track branch (slowing down long distance passengers or removing existing links) – just run a half hourly service from St Andrews to Carnoustie/ Arbroath (given the decent population along the banks of the Tay through Broughty Ferry/ Monifieth etc who aren’t well served by the current services from the Central Belt to Aberdeen).

And whilst a station at Wormit may only slow long distance passengers down, if you had a St Andrews – Carnoustie shuttle then that could be ideal for a Wormit station (potentially taking quite a few cars off the Tay Bridge).

Any realistic spur design would mean it would just be an extra short chord to serve both Edinburgh and Dundee rather than just the one. The only thing that might be needed if there were a 2tph service to Dundee would be an intermediate passing loop (you wouldn't want to block the mainline waiting for a train to leave) but this would be in open, relatively flat countryside, so it couldn't be that much of a problem. A second platform is a given due to the tourist charter market - during the peak summer season there should be no problem filling up Borders-style steam specials taking people from the heart of Edinburgh, over Scotland's most famous landmark, to the home of golf and where Kate met Wills in only an hour.

I’m not totally in favour of a St Andrews line, btw. There are a lot of potential problems (especially the balance between stopping short of the Swilken versus demolishing lots of expensive land east of the burn – why spend millions on a service that terminates near the Old Course but so far from the heart of St A that you need a shuttle bus to actually get anywhere near Market Street? The Stagecoach buses serve South Street/ Market Street etc, as well as residential areas beyond the town centre, which heavy rail couldn’t). There are a lot of bigger priorities (generally, I’m more in favour of improving existing lines/ services than opening old railway). But I think it’s been unfairly written off here, maybe because it doesn’t neatly fit the “direct services to Edinburgh and Glasgow” template, maybe because of an inverted snobbery about the place?

In my experience the vast majority of 99 passengers get on and off at the bus station, which is effectively where the buffer stops would be, so the fact that the train wouldn't continue any further shouldn't be a problem. The closeness of the bus and rail stations would make St Andrews even more important as a hub of North East Fife transport without necessarily diminishing the importance of Leuchars either. Building both the Leven and St Andrews railways would boost the entire East Fife tourist market given that the 95 would then connect back to the mainline railway at both ends, making it easy to go on day trips from Edinburgh. Remember that although it may be possible to do it today, we all know that tourists prefer the ease, comfort and predictability of a railway link.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In my experience the vast majority of 99 passengers get on and off at the bus station, which is effectively where the buffer stops would be, so the fact that the train wouldn't continue any further shouldn't be a problem. The closeness of the bus and rail stations would make St Andrews even more important as a hub of North East Fife transport without necessarily diminishing the importance of Leuchars either. Building both the Leven and St Andrews railways would boost the entire East Fife tourist market given that the 95 would then connect back to the mainline railway at both ends, making it easy to go on day trips from Edinburgh. Remember that although it may be possible to do it today, we all know that tourists prefer the ease, comfort and predictability of a railway link.

Where do the bus passengers get on at Dundee ? The railway station is in an unusual place in Dundee, really, so would that prevent usage of StARLink ?

 

[ld0595]

Where do the bus passengers get on at Dundee ? The railway station is in an unusual place in Dundee, really, so would that prevent usage of StARLink ?

The 99 gets pretty close to the rail station, then goes through the centre and on to the bus station.

I'll echo other thoughts that the St Andrews rail link isn't going to happen any time soon. I've used the bus link from Dundee and Leuchars many times and it's reasonably well priced, reliable and every ten minutes during the day time. The majority of people are either going to take the bus, and the few who don't will take a taxi.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Where do the bus passengers get on at Dundee ? The railway station is in an unusual place in Dundee, really, so would that prevent usage of StARLink ?

In my experience quite a few people get on at the linear bus station in the main shopping centre and then more get on at the normal bus station. However, the train station isn't that far away from the main shopping area and it will be at the heart of the new waterfront area, so there should be plenty of people in the catchment area of the station. People will walk further to then get a train so it really isn't as much of a problem that the overall walking distance might increase slightly. The Tata Steel report, using Class 170 timings, had the St Andrews to Dundee journey as being around 20 minutes, which should be about right even with a Wormit stop due to the vastly superior acceleration of EMUs, and that would be around 2/3rds of the journey time of the bus service and without being affected by heavy traffic during the rush hours. If the Dundee service then continues through to Carnoustie it would have an even better business case.

 

[backontrack]

R.E Grangemouth, how would a service be run? Would it be an extension of Glasgow services to Falkirk via Cumbernauld?

 

[NotATrainspott]

R.E Grangemouth, how would a service be run? Would it be an extension of Glasgow services to Falkirk via Cumbernauld?

Yes, it would be an extension of the Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld service. This service already runs ECS onto the Grangemouth branch to then turn back for the return journey without blocking the mainline, so it should be easy to make it run the few extra kilometres to a simple single platform built next to the town centre. No extra trains or crews needed, just a simple unstaffed platform on the Union Road side and getting the branch cleared for passenger traffic.

 

[Class 170101]

How close is the existing turnback to the proposed town centre stop though?

There isn't much time to extend the train further than the ECS already operates.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Originally Posted by Altnabreac View Post
Altnabreac's 4 golden rules of a successful rail reopening:

Population of 10,000+
60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required.

These seem like a reasonable basis to work from. The regeneration factor no doubt helps to swing some political weight.

So how about Bo'ness? Population 14,000+, easily within 60 minutes of Edinburgh, trackbed still in use by Bo'ness & Kinneil heritage line, a north to east chord at Manuel doesn't look too difficult, a town in desperate need of a lift so the only point missed is the terminal issue. Bo'ness to North Berwick maybe?

I suppose that capacity Manuel into Edinburgh might be a constraint.


P.S. Build a station at Winchburgh for the housing expansion there and run Bo'ness - Linlithgow - Winchburgh - Edinburgh Park - Haymarket - Waverley and maybe on to N Berwick

 

[ld0595]

I know this has been suggested before, but could there be any possibility of commencing an Arbroath to Glasgow stopper? Would provide Carnoustie, Montrose, Broughty Ferry and Invergowrie and/or a new Dundee west station with an hourly service. I can't imagine it would be to difficult to create a terminating platform next to platform 2.

The present Dundee to Glasgow stoppers (3 a day I think) are usually reasonably well used.

 

[47271]

These seem like a reasonable basis to work from. The regeneration factor no doubt helps to swing some political weight.

So how about Bo'ness? Population 14,000+, easily within 60 minutes of Edinburgh, trackbed still in use by Bo'ness & Kinneil heritage line, a north to east chord at Manuel doesn't look too difficult, a town in desperate need of a lift so the only point missed is the terminal issue. Bo'ness to North Berwick maybe?

I suppose that capacity Manuel into Edinburgh might be a constraint.


P.S. Build a station at Winchburgh for the housing expansion there and run Bo'ness - Linlithgow - Winchburgh - Edinburgh Park - Haymarket - Waverley and maybe on to N Berwick

Winchburgh is due to open December 2018 I believe

 

[clc]

These seem like a reasonable basis to work from. The regeneration factor no doubt helps to swing some political weight.

So how about Bo'ness? Population 14,000+, easily within 60 minutes of Edinburgh, trackbed still in use by Bo'ness & Kinneil heritage line, a north to east chord at Manuel doesn't look too difficult, a town in desperate need of a lift so the only point missed is the terminal issue. Bo'ness to North Berwick maybe?

I suppose that capacity Manuel into Edinburgh might be a constraint.


P.S. Build a station at Winchburgh for the housing expansion there and run Bo'ness - Linlithgow - Winchburgh - Edinburgh Park - Haymarket - Waverley and maybe on to N Berwick

If you build the Glasgow-Edinburgh HSR line and Dalmeny Chord the end to end journey times on the E&G line become less important so stopping frequency can be increased.

How about something like this which provides enhanced services for virtually all stations and makes use of spare capacity on the Haymarket north lines:-

Queen St - Croy - Falkirk High - Polmont - Linlithgow - Edinburgh Park -Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

Queen St - Croy - Falkirk High - Polmont - Gogar - Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

Boness - Linlithgow - Gogar - Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

HSR Glasgow - Haymarket - Waverley - 3tph

Winchburgh will be served by the Dunblane service as per the Franchise Agreement.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I know this has been suggested before, but could there be any possibility of commencing an Arbroath to Glasgow stopper? Would provide Carnoustie, Montrose, Broughty Ferry and Invergowrie and/or a new Dundee west station with an hourly service. I can't imagine it would be to difficult to create a terminating platform next to platform 2.

The present Dundee to Glasgow stoppers (3 a day I think) are usually reasonably well used.

There's already that Glasgow to Arbroath service which is the worst performing train in Scotland, but it's routed into sidings north of Arbroath to change ends and return south.

The station will need rebuilt for electrification, and there's a NR scheme of some sort to increase linespeed through the station for freight, so it's possible something might be do-able to bring the third platform into use, or to build a bay platform depending on how major the changes are for Arbroath.

 

[backontrack]

If you build the Glasgow-Edinburgh HSR line and Dalmeny Chord the end to end journey times on the E&G line become less important so stopping frequency can be increased.

How about something like this which provides enhanced services for virtually all stations and makes use of spare capacity on the Haymarket north lines:-

Queen St - Croy - Falkirk High - Polmont - Linlithgow - Edinburgh Park -Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

Queen St - Croy - Falkirk High - Polmont - Gogar - Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

Boness - Linlithgow - Gogar - Haymarket - Waverley - 2tph

HSR Glasgow - Haymarket - Waverley - 3tph

Winchburgh will be served by the Dunblane service as per the Franchise Agreement.

Why not swap Gogar/Edinburgh Gateway with Winchburgh?

 

[clc]

Why not swap Gogar/Edinburgh Gateway with Winchburgh?

The advantage of routeing via Gogar is there is more capacity on the Haymarket north lines. Diverting services away from the congested south lines releases capacity for Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR which will approach from north of Carstairs.

 

[snowball]

Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR which will approach from north of Carstairs.

Do you know the route?

 

[najaB]

Do you know the route?

I don't think there is a final route as yet, but it makes sense that it will be north of Carstairs as there's no real point in taking it further south.