Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[clc]

No date set for electrification yet. One service in morning used to skip Pollokshaws and Crossmyloof .Id take out thornliebank too.
The 2 a day fast services only call at hairmyres and Clarkston.

Not sure about skipping Thornliebank as it handles 254,000 passengers, which is more than Busby (167,000).

 

[Altnabreac]

That sounds probably about right. Although Thorntonhall currently only gets 1 of the 2tph calls. So I wonder if 4tph happened, would calls increase to 2tph there? With both of the stoppers calling.

No date set for electrification yet. One service in morning used to skip Pollokshaws and Crossmyloof .Id take out thornliebank too.
The 2 a day fast services only call at hairmyres and Clarkston.

There is strong demand for all the East Renfrewshire stations. I'm fairly sure there would be a 4tph service for everywhere except Thorntonhall (which probably would justify 2tph).

You wouldn't want to lose calls at Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof altogether but skip stopping them would be reasonable so each retains 2tph to EK and 2tph to Barrhead.

 

[route101]

There is strong demand for all the East Renfrewshire stations. I'm fairly sure there would be a 4tph service for everywhere except Thorntonhall (which probably would justify 2tph).

You wouldn't want to lose calls at Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof altogether but skip stopping them would be reasonable so each retains 2tph to EK and 2tph to Barrhead.

Not sure about skipping Thornliebank as it handles 254,000 passengers, which is more than Busby (167,000).

That surprises always thought Busby was a bit busier

 

[Starmill]

Busby has a smaller residential catchment area, and part of it will be competing with Clarkston.

Having said that, I am surprised that Thornliebank and Kennishead both have as many passengers as they do, being as close as they are. Muirend, Williamwood and Whitecraigs will also compete for some of the passengers in the area.

 

[clc]

It appears the Glasgow Airport tram train proposal is about to be scrapped:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ill____do_more_harm_than_good___/?ref=mr&lp=1

Maybe I spoke too soon:

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...rt___s___144m_rail_link_could_still_go_ahead/

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe I spoke too soon:

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15671198.Glasgow_Airport___s___144m_rail_link_could_still_go_ahead/

My understanding is that the report quoted in the previous article is from some time ago and further work has been done to address many of the issues raised.

 

[Grinner]

"Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said there was no reason why the Glasgow Airport Access Project (GAAP) could not go ahead" (my underlining). Perhpas thoughts are moving towards some other form of fixed link access to the airport rather than jsut focusing on the the tram-train option?

 

[Altnabreac]

I've always thought the Personal Rapid Transit option which had a virtually identical BCR to tram train looked a much better and more useful option.

 

[Grinner]

I basically agree, but I just can't picture how you would run them to Paisley Gilmour Street, assuming we're talking something like the Heathrow pods. I wonder whether a dedicated Glasgow Airport station at the nearest point of the current railway to the station, with PRT to the termical from there might be the best option. It would have the advantage of getting "Glasgow Airport" onto the rail map, and passengers would "feel" they had arrived at the airport once they got off the train, as the PRT would be part of the airport.

 

[Altnabreac]

I basically agree, but I just can't picture how you would run them to Paisley Gilmour Street, assuming we're talking something like the Heathrow pods. I wonder whether a dedicated Glasgow Airport station at the nearest point of the current railway to the station, with PRT to the termical from there might be the best option. It would have the advantage of getting "Glasgow Airport" onto the rail map, and passengers would "feel" they had arrived at the airport once they got off the train, as the PRT would be part of the airport.

That was basically what was being proposed in this scheme:
http://www.scottishconstructionnow....eiled-for-proposed-glasgow-airport-rail-link/

Would be better if you could find a PRT route to Gilmour St though in terms of the number of connections. Still a relocated St James would already have 5tph and there is a longer term desire to increase the Wemyss Bay service to 2tph giving a potential 6tph service at the Airport Station.

 

[Grinner]

Oh, I had thought it was going to be PGS, not sure where I got that from. Thanks for that link too.

 

[Mordac]

Could they work out a Birmingham International type people mover?

 

[edwin_m]

Various studies have looked at PRT or automated shuttle (similar idea to Birmingham International, not necessarily the same technology) from either Gilmour Street or a relocated St James. Doing anything from Gilmour Street is difficult due to the lack of space, elevated location and heritage issues (conservation area). A St James option is easier but has to pay for station relocation, with less frequent conneting trains and obviously none towards Ayrshire. One problem with PRT is that it's a relatively low capacity mode, and if a crowd of people arrive at once (alighting from a train for example) the last ones may have to queue.

 

[InOban]

That proposed route would look quite spectacular as it crosses the roundabout above the motorway. Not sure if I would fancy it in a gale of wind.

 

[Grinner]

I don't think it would need to be be any higher than the existing flyover that takes the A737 over the A726, and which I'm not aware of any issues with.

 

[InOban]

True, but that's a substantial four-lane viaduct.

 

[clc]

So with electrification, some 125mph running between Dunblane to Hilton Jn and Barnhill to Invergowrie, a new double-track bridge at Perth, Carmont bypass and enhanced alignments at Usan you could get down to 2 hours stopping at Dundee only or 2 hrs 5 mins if also stopping at Perth?

Was just reading the Route Specifications document and was pleased to see there is indeed an aspiration for a fastest journey time of 2 hours between Glasgow and Aberdeen (see ‘2043 Opportunities to Travel’ columns):

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Route-Specification-Scotland-2017.pdf

 

[clc]

The Transport Minister confirmed some figures during a recent appearance in front of a Holyrood committee.

He is seeking a total of £4.2 billion from the Treasury for CP6. The offer is £600 million short, so £3.6 billion. The industry needs £1.9 billion for renewals, so the current offer would leave £1.7 billion for enhancements.

With £1.7 billion to spend surely Levenmouth must be in with a shout?

Transcript: http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11229&mode=pdf

 

[InOban]

But presumably much of that £1.7 billions will be needed to complete already-committed schemes - electrification, Aberdeen to Inverness etc?

 

[najaB]

But presumably much of that £1.7 billions will be needed to complete already-committed schemes - electrification, Aberdeen to Inverness etc?

It will, but the estimated £80M for Levenmouth is less than 5% of the total and could be tied in to other projects (e.g. Edinburgh-Dundee electrification).

Speaking of which, I can't remember in the discussions we've had previously: does electrifying Haymarket - Inverkeithing - Fife circle - Levenmouth/Markinch make sense as a first step of Edinburgh - Aberdeen?

 

[Altnabreac]

It will, but the estimated £80M for Levenmouth is less than 5% of the total and could be tied in to other projects (e.g. Edinburgh-Dundee electrification).

Speaking of which, I can't remember in the discussions we've had previously: does electrifying Haymarket - Inverkeithing - Fife circle - Levenmouth/Markinch make sense as a first step of Edinburgh - Aberdeen?

It seems clear that the current preference is to electrify Dunblane - Dundee first (though after East Kilbride / Kilmarnock / Maryhill) to allow the new Glasgow - Dundee semi fast services to be electrified as an initial stage of wires heading north from the central belt. Whether this would extend as far as Arbroath to allow the semi fasts to operate the Glasgow - Dundee services through the Angus coast station is less certain.

I'm not sure we've seen anything after that really as to whether the preference would be to tackle Fife Circle / Markinch as an initial stage or just to do one side of the circle and try and reach Dundee. Both would free up DMUs but probably Fife Circle would give you more bang for your buck.

The other possibility is if you are looking strategically at the stock requirement then you may say well the Turbostars will last a bit longer in Fife but by the early 2030s the HSTs are going to be very long in the tooth and need replacing. So assuming Inverness won't be wired immediately you are looking at a requirement to replace HSTs with a combination of Hybrids and EMUs. So the priority would be to enable one of the 5 HST routes to be fully electrified. The easiest way to do this would probably be keep wiring north from Dundee to Aberdeen so Glasgow - Aberdeen services can be EMU operated while Edinburgh services could initially be hybrids using the diesel through Fife and switching back to electric at Dundee.

 

[clc]

It will, but the estimated £80M for Levenmouth is less than 5% of the total and could be tied in to other projects (e.g. Edinburgh-Dundee electrification).

Speaking of which, I can't remember in the discussions we've had previously: does electrifying Haymarket - Inverkeithing - Fife circle - Levenmouth/Markinch make sense as a first step of Edinburgh - Aberdeen?

I had assumed that not having to include the cost of electrification would be beneficial for the Levenmouth business case.

 

[najaB]

I had assumed that not having to include the cost of electrification would be beneficial for the Levenmouth business case.

It would be, but if would make sense to put in everything bar the wires so that we don't end up running diesel under the wires from Edinburgh to Thornton North Junction.

 

[InOban]

When I suggested that much of the money was already spoken for, I was referring to the completion to Alloa/Dunblane and Shotts, not to further electrification beyond that.

 

[najaB]

But presumably much of that £1.7 billions will be needed to complete already-committed schemes - electrification, Aberdeen to Inverness etc?

That doesn't make sense as those projects are funded as part of CP5, surely?

 

[clc]

When I suggested that much of the money was already spoken for, I was referring to the completion to Alloa/Dunblane and Shotts, not to further electrification beyond that.

This info was given to a Parliamentary committee a few weeks ago:

“Alex Hynes: The whole investment programme across Scotland’s railway network, including the electrification of the Stirling-Dunblane-Alloa line and the Shotts line upgrade is all proceeding to time and within the overall funding envelope. We expect to deliver an electrified Shotts line and an electrified Stirling-Dunblane-Alloa line next year. The work is proceeding to programme and within the overall borrowing headroom. David Dickson might want to add to that.

David Dickson (ScotRail Alliance): The programme is actually marginally ahead of target just now. It is being delivered extremely well, as is the rest of the electrification programme. As Alex Hynes has said, the work is proceeding to programme and is on budget, and we do not anticipate that changing. It is progressing extremely well.”

David Dickson goes on to say that Dunblane will be delivered in December 2018 and Alloa in March 2019.

Columns37-38: http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11191&mode=pdf

So it sounds like SAD and Shotts won’t require to draw on the CP6 budget.

 

[InOban]

I hope you are right. I had assumed that that, even though it is on time and budget, anything not complete within CP5 would be charged to CP6. After all, it's all being paid for out of the capital allocation from London to Edinburgh.

 

[route101]

Noticed a lot of poles up on the Shotts line .

 

[clc]

It seems clear that the current preference is to electrify Dunblane - Dundee first (though after East Kilbride / Kilmarnock / Maryhill) to allow the new Glasgow - Dundee semi fast services to be electrified as an initial stage of wires heading north from the central belt. Whether this would extend as far as Arbroath to allow the semi fasts to operate the Glasgow - Dundee services through the Angus coast station is less certain.

I'm not sure we've seen anything after that really as to whether the preference would be to tackle Fife Circle / Markinch as an initial stage or just to do one side of the circle and try and reach Dundee. Both would free up DMUs but probably Fife Circle would give you more bang for your buck.

The other possibility is if you are looking strategically at the stock requirement then you may say well the Turbostars will last a bit longer in Fife but by the early 2030s the HSTs are going to be very long in the tooth and need replacing. So assuming Inverness won't be wired immediately you are looking at a requirement to replace HSTs with a combination of Hybrids and EMUs. So the priority would be to enable one of the 5 HST routes to be fully electrified. The easiest way to do this would probably be keep wiring north from Dundee to Aberdeen so Glasgow - Aberdeen services can be EMU operated while Edinburgh services could initially be hybrids using the diesel through Fife and switching back to electric at Dundee.

Hopefully the commitment to electrify 100stkm per year will continue and the wires will reach Dundee in CP6.

 

[DuncanS]

That was basically what was being proposed in this scheme:
http://www.scottishconstructionnow....eiled-for-proposed-glasgow-airport-rail-link/

Would be better if you could find a PRT route to Gilmour St though in terms of the number of connections. Still a relocated St James would already have 5tph and there is a longer term desire to increase the Wemyss Bay service to 2tph giving a potential 6tph service at the Airport Station.

This guy says he can do it for £10 million and have no trains....

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...ernative__to_tram_train_Glasgow_Airport_link/