Failed lner Stevenage

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800001

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Lner 800202 failed yesterday on down fast at Stevenage while working 1B82.
There was reports of smoke coming from bogie whilst train arrived. After investigation it has a seized axle, and is still sat on platform 3 over 24 hours later.
It is being moved on Skates tonight to Hitchin Yard, and will sit there until Hitachi formulate a plan to move it to Doncaster.
 
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sonic2009

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Would the easiest option be to route via Sleaford to Doncaster from Hitchin to avoid clogging the main line?
 

800001

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Would the easiest option be to route via Sleaford to Doncaster from Hitchin to avoid clogging the main line?
Will be overnight moves at a severely reduced speeds, will take several nights to move
 

Mag_seven

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Reminds me of the Class 390 that had a similar problem at Lockerbie a few weeks back. It had to move back to the depot at a severely reduced speed as well.
 

DanNCL

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Surely it would make more sense to take it to the nearest location with road access so that it could be moved to Doncaster by road? I'd have thought that would be much quicker than trying to get it all the way up to Doncaster on wheel skates.

I'm sadly not surprised it's still sat there more than 24 hours later. The unit that had an altercation with a cow near Durham a few weeks ago took more than 12 hours to move from Croxdale Viaduct (and several more days after that to move it from Durham to Doncaster), and another 80x took more than 12 hours to move after a dewirement resulted in a smashed windscreen late last year. Recovering failed 91s and HSTs on the East Coast Main Line, even in situations like this one where there is damage to the train, hardly ever took this long to clear the running lines, usually the train would at the very least be out of the way in a loop within a few hours. Why do the 80xs take so long to recover? Are Hitachi/Agility adding restrictions? Or is it a lack of planning?
 

A0wen

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Surprised they can't do something with it at Bounds Green - dragging it slowly to Newton Aycliffe seems a remarkably inefficient way to resolve this.
 

800001

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Surprised they can't do something with it at Bounds Green - dragging it slowly to Newton Aycliffe seems a remarkably inefficient way to resolve this.
No one has said its going to Aycliffe

Surely it would make more sense to take it to the nearest location with road access so that it could be moved to Doncaster by road? I'd have thought that would be much quicker than trying to get it all the way up to Doncaster on wheel skates.

I'm sadly not surprised it's still sat there more than 24 hours later. The unit that had an altercation with a cow near Durham a few weeks ago took more than 12 hours to move from Croxdale Viaduct (and several more days after that to move it from Durham to Doncaster), and another 80x took more than 12 hours to move after a dewirement resulted in a smashed windscreen late last year. Recovering failed 91s and HSTs on the East Coast Main Line, even in situations like this one where there is damage to the train, hardly ever took this long to clear the running lines, usually the train would at the very least be out of the way in a loop within a few hours. Why do the 80xs take so long to recover? Are Hitachi/Agility adding restrictions? Or is it a lack of planning?
When was the last time a mk4 or hst suffered a seized axle?

And the recovery is all down to availability of skate team which is managed by Db Shenkner and they have to come from Millerhill.
 

DanNCL

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When was the last time a mk4 or hst suffered a seized axle?
I don't know when the last time a mark 4 of HST had a seized axle, and I know that a seized axle isn't by any means an easy recovery and is one of the few cases where a HST/Mark 4 would have taken a long time to recover which is why I said "hardly ever", and not "never". That doesn't make any difference for the wider point I was making about recovering stock after failures in general, where the 80xs are generally taking far too long to recover from the running lines after an incident - this is at least the third incident in less than 6 months involving an LNER 80x where it's taken more than 12 hours to recover the unit from the location of the incident to anywhere that's not blocking the running lines.

And the recovery is all down to availability of skate team which is managed by Db Shenkner and they have to come from Millerhill.
And there we have a major issue. Recovering a failed train in Hertfordshire should not require a team to travel from Edinburgh. There should be teams able to handle this in the South East, the fact that there aren't shows a lack of planning on the railway's part.
 

Grumpy Git

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And there we have a major issue. Recovering a failed train in Hertfordshire should not require a team to travel from Edinburgh. There should be teams able to handle this in the South East, the fact that there aren't shows a lack of planning on the railway's part.

The joys of a fragmented railway.
 

fgwrich

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I don't know when the last time a mark 4 of HST had a seized axle, and I know that a seized axle isn't by any means an easy recovery and is one of the few cases where a HST/Mark 4 would have taken a long time to recover which is why I said "hardly ever", and not "never". That doesn't make any difference for the wider point I was making about recovering stock after failures in general, where the 80xs are generally taking far too long to recover from the running lines after an incident - this is at least the third incident in less than 6 months involving an LNER 80x where it's taken more than 12 hours to recover the unit from the location of the incident to anywhere that's not blocking the running lines.


And there we have a major issue. Recovering a failed train in Hertfordshire should not require a team to travel from Edinburgh. There should be teams able to handle this in the South East, the fact that there aren't shows a lack of planning on the railway's part.

Of course one of the problems in recovering this Multiple Unit by road is well, because it's a Multiple Unit. There's a lot to disconnect between unit coaches these days (see Desiro's or Pendolino's for that matter) as well as finding something that can move it through the unit's inter car coupler bar as well. At least with a Mk3/4 they were easier to knock a vehicle out of, move it out of the way and recover at a later date. I don't disagree though that the Hitachi unit's do seem to be taking a fair amount of time to recover. They're a nightmare in cases of fatalities too, as only Hitachi engineers can get them moving again.
 

DanNCL

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Of course one of the problems in recovering this Multiple Unit by road is well, because it's a Multiple Unit. There's a lot to disconnect between unit coaches these days (see Desiro's or Pendolino's for that matter) as well as finding something that can move it through the unit's inter car coupler bar as well. At least with a Mk3/4 they were easier to knock a vehicle out of, move it out of the way and recover at a later date. I don't disagree though that the Hitachi unit's do seem to be taking a fair amount of time to recover. They're a nightmare in cases of fatalities too, as only Hitachi engineers can get them moving again.
That one hadn’t occurred to me when I suggested but yes that would be a hinderance to moving it by road. Possibly still quicker than moving it to Doncaster on skates though!

I’ve always wondered why it requires a Hitachi engineer to get them moving after a fatality, is that a restriction imposed by Hitachi/Agility Trains, or are they generally damaged to an extent where they need immediate attention from an engineer before they can be moved?
 

fgwrich

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That one hadn’t occurred to me when I suggested but yes that would be a hinderance to moving it by road. Possibly still quicker than moving it to Doncaster on skates though!

I’ve always wondered why it requires a Hitachi engineer to get them moving after a fatality, is that a restriction imposed by Hitachi/Agility Trains, or are they generally damaged to an extent where they need immediate attention from an engineer before they can be moved?
Whether or not the rules have changed since, but it was a rule imposed by Hitachi that they have to send one of their engineers out to make the train safe and ready for movement again. It was also an absolute pain, as you couldn't go near or touch anything underneath the affected unit unit said engineer has assessed it - time or life critical. This was one of their many foibles and one reason why I dislike the fleet and Hitachi's level of protectionism over them.
 

Horizon22

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Whether or not the rules have changed since, but it was a rule imposed by Hitachi that they have to send one of their engineers out to make the train safe and ready for movement again. It was also an absolute pain, as you couldn't go near or touch anything underneath the affected unit unit said engineer has assessed it - time or life critical. This was one of their many foibles and one reason why I dislike the fleet and Hitachi's level of protectionism over them.

Hitachi are certainly very protective (perhaps overly so?) of their 80x fleet. It can be something of a frustration when there are all sorts of varying and impractical restrictions on aspects of the fleet.
 

hexagon789

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This was one of their many foibles and one reason why I dislike the fleet and Hitachi's level of protectionism over them.
Far too protective and the approach causes all sorts of knock-on issues to other services, surely the 'arrangement' must cost a fair bit extra in delay minutes compared to with other fleets when they fail in traffic?
 

DanNCL

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Whether or not the rules have changed since, but it was a rule imposed by Hitachi that they have to send one of their engineers out to make the train safe and ready for movement again. It was also an absolute pain, as you couldn't go near or touch anything underneath the affected unit unit said engineer has assessed it - time or life critical. This was one of their many foibles and one reason why I dislike the fleet and Hitachi's level of protectionism over them.
Thanks for this, confirms what I suspected but I wanted to double check before stating it as fact.

If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi not allowing the train to be touched, if a post mortem were to establish that the person would have been able to have been saved had TOC or Network Rail staff been permitted to touch the train before Hitachi engineers arrived, that could land some people in serious bother with law, and Hitachi/Agility Trains would deserve it too.

I have never liked these trains because of how expensive they were, how restrictive Hitachi are with them, and the many other issues that the fleet has. I dislike them even more now I know this.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks for this, confirms what I suspected but I wanted to double check before stating it as fact.

If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi not allowing the train to be touched, if a post mortem were to establish that the person would have been able to have been saved had TOC or Network Rail staff been permitted to touch the train before Hitachi engineers arrived, that could land some people in serious bother with law, and Hitachi/Agility Trains would deserve it too.

I have never liked these trains because of how expensive they were, how restrictive Hitachi are with them, and the many other issues that the fleet has. I dislike them even more now I know this.
I don't dislike the trains per se, but I certainly dislike the very restrictive practices surrounding failures. This has got to be causing additional delays than would otherwise be the case surely?
 

D365

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Pedant alert;

do Hitachi send an engineer or a technician?
Depends what’s on their job description.

I have never liked these trains because of how expensive they were, how restrictive Hitachi are with them, and the many other issues that the fleet has. I dislike them even more now I know this.
The first two (and the post which you are replying to) are down to the contracts for maintenance/operation and hardly the fault of the train itself.
 

ComUtoR

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Thanks for this, confirms what I suspected but I wanted to double check before stating it as fact.

If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi not allowing the train to be touched, if a post mortem were to establish that the person would have been able to have been saved had TOC or Network Rail staff been permitted to touch the train before Hitachi engineers arrived, that could land some people in serious bother with law, and Hitachi/Agility Trains would deserve it too.

I have never liked these trains because of how expensive they were, how restrictive Hitachi are with them, and the many other issues that the fleet has. I dislike them even more now I know this.

If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi allowing the train to be touched, if an investigation were to establish that the person touched something they were not qualified to touch or had no knowledge of then.....

Be careful of extreme examples as they can swing both ways.
 

Grumpy Git

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So anyone can be an engineer (or a technician for that matter), if an HR department decides so?

No wonder this country has no respect for engineers.
 

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It was also an absolute pain, as you couldn't go near or touch anything underneath the affected unit unit said engineer has assessed it - time or life critical.
If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi not allowing the train to be touched, if a post mortem were to establish that the person would have been able to have been saved had TOC or Network Rail staff been permitted to touch the train before Hitachi engineers arrived, that could land some people in serious bother with law, and Hitachi/Agility Trains would deserve it too.
Does this really mean what it appears to mean? That if a person is, for example, trapped in or under a train and life is fading, that nobody is allowed to to do anything until a Hitachi employee has given the OK. Even if we don’t have in this country a specific offence (as far as I know) of failing to render assistance to someone in need, as exists in some countries, would the emergency services pay any attention? And what would Hitachi do if a member of NR/TOC staff did take action to give assistance to a person in need?
 

DanNCL

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Hitachi are certainly very protective (perhaps overly so?) of their 80x fleet. It can be something of a frustration when there are all sorts of varying and impractical restrictions on aspects of the fleet.
The 36 hour "fit to run" certificate is a nuisance too as it means anything stabled overnight somewhere that doesn't have a Hitachi engineering team present (York station amongst other locations) can only complete half a day in service on one of the two days in question - it's not a coincidence that the diagram stabling in York station overnight is one of the few diagrams that still uses a 91+Mark 4 set.

Far too protective and the approach causes all sorts of knock-on issues to other services, surely the 'arrangement' must cost a fair bit extra in delay minutes compared to with other fleets when they fail in traffic?
If it does I think Hitachi should foot the bill. Unfortunately in reality it's likely to be the train operator that pays.

If someone were to die as a result of Hitachi allowing the train to be touched, if an investigation were to establish that the person touched something they were not qualified to touch or had no knowledge of then.....

Be careful of extreme examples as they can swing both ways.
In most circumstances I would agree that there is good reason to insist on all staff touching the train to be sufficiently trained, however if someone is in a situation where they are likely to die if assistance is not given immediately, an exception should be made to allow other members of staff and/or emergency services to provide assistance without Hitachi staff present.

Does this really mean what it appears to mean? That if a person is, for example, trapped in or under a train and life is fading, that nobody is allowed to to do anything until a Hitachi employee has given the OK. Even if we don’t have in this country a specific offence (as far as I know) of failing to render assistance to someone in need, as exists in some countries, would the emergency services pay any attention? And what would Hitachi do if a member of NR/TOC staff did take action to give assistance to a person in need?
I really hope it doesn't. Assuming it does mean what it appears to mean, I would hope if someone did ignore it to provide emergency assistance that Hitachi would turn a blind eye to it on moral grounds if nothing else.

--

Is it known if the team being sent from Scotland has arrived at Stevenage to put the seized axle(s) on skates yet?
 

ComUtoR

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In most circumstances I would agree that there is good reason to insist on all staff touching the train to be sufficiently trained, however if someone is in a situation where they are likely to die if assistance is not given immediately, an exception should be made to allow other members of staff and/or emergency services to provide assistance without Hitachi staff present.

Which is better ? Two people dead or one ?
 

800001

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The 36 hour "fit to run" certificate is a nuisance too as it means anything stabled overnight somewhere that doesn't have a Hitachi engineering team present (York station amongst other locations) can only complete half a day in service on one of the two days in question - it's not a coincidence that the diagram stabling in York station overnight is one of the few diagrams that still uses a 91+Mark 4 set.


If it does I think Hitachi should foot the bill. Unfortunately in reality it's likely to be the train operator that pays.


In most circumstances I would agree that there is good reason to insist on all staff touching the train to be sufficiently trained, however if someone is in a situation where they are likely to die if assistance is not given immediately, an exception should be made to allow other members of staff and/or emergency services to provide assistance without Hitachi staff present.


I really hope it doesn't. Assuming it does mean what it appears to mean, I would hope if someone did ignore it to provide emergency assistance that Hitachi would turn a blind eye to it on moral grounds if nothing else.

--

Is it known if the team being sent from Scotland has arrived at Stevenage to put the seized axle(s) on skates yet?
Due on site at 2200 and will take 2 hours to fit skate across both axles and all 4 wheels.
 

DanNCL

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Which is better ? Two people dead or one ?
Zero is better and if someone wishes to touch the train to attempt to rescue someone who is dying, knowing that by doing so they're potentially taking a risk, they should be allowed to. At the end of the day though, do you seriously think someone is going to die from trying to rescue someone from underneath a stationary train? The rescuers don't usually die when they rescue people from underneath any other type of train, why would it be any different for an 80x?

Due on site at 2200 and will take 2 hours to fit skate across both axles and all 4 wheels.
Thanks for the update. Hopefully all will go to plan and the unit will be shifted off the main line in the early hours of the morning.
 

Hadders

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I did wonder what an Azuma was doing at Stevenage P3 with 'Do Not Move' flags attached. This was about 21:00 last night. I didn't note the number but it was a 5-car.

Not a problem to leave it in P3 on a Sunday as there are fewer trains running so the slows will be able to cope fine. I suspect if it had happened on a weekday it would've been moved faster.
 

skyhigh

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I think someone somewhere has put 2+2 together and made 5, unless things have dramatically changed. When I was involved, we were told to take extreme caution when at an 'incident' that involved going under an 80x due to the fact that there were exposed live components that required a fitter to make safe - hence why a fitter was required to attend. It wasn't because Hitachi were protective of 'their' train. The 80x had particular hazards that made it much more difficult to work with than other stock.

At the end of the day though, do you seriously think someone is going to die from trying to rescue someone from underneath a stationary train? The rescuers don't usually die when they rescue people from underneath any other type of train, why would it be any different for an 80x?
Yes, it's entirely possible someone will die going under a stationary train. I'm not sure you fully understand the hazards. 80x are different as stated above. There are exposed live components as far as I understand. If it were safe, and life was at risk, BTP wouldn't care who owns the train or what Hitachi says.
 

XAM2175

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You all realise that the provision and maintenance agreements that allow Hitachi to be this protective were agreed by the DfT, yes? Those contracts moved a lot of the risk traditionally borne by the ROSCO and TOCs into Agility's court and the "protectiveness" on their part is them acting to minimise their exposure to the risk. The fact that it doesn't play well with the railway's operational flexibility is - to be blunt - not their problem.

Zero is better and if someone wishes to touch the train to attempt to rescue someone who is dying, knowing that by doing so they're potentially taking a risk, they should be allowed to. At the end of the day though, do you seriously think someone is going to die from trying to rescue someone from underneath a stationary train? The rescuers don't usually die when they rescue people from underneath any other type of train, why would it be any different for an 80x?
Are we even sure that this is the case or are we manufacturing a big conspiracy out of one statement of discontent? I would imagine that the emergency services would assess the risk of conducting a rescue and act accordingly - and without regard for contractual restrictions on who can and cannot "touch" the train.
 

Failed Unit

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The last 180 to go up in smoke at Welwyn North. Herts fire and rescue had to wait for the GWR fitters to come (under blue lights) from old oak common. Took a while. The also needed confirmation from network rail the juice was off. So nothing really has change. I guess if the fire was putting lives in danger they may have acted differently but the train was evacuated so let it burn. (If you see what I mean)
 
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