Fake tickets?

[Howardh]

Just wondered how many fraudsters are caught with fake made-at-home tickets? If a station is ungated -ie no use for the magnetic strip, with all the tech available to people at home these days I would be very surprised if there isn't a dark industry in fake ticket (season?) production, especially with the print-it-yourself e-tickets.

Any good examples, any decent prosecutions??

 

[yorkie]

There is. They're 'manufactured' in places like Romania.

The rail industry makes it relatively easy for them, by having many different designs and paper formats.

I believe LU catch more of these tickets than any of the National Rail TOCs!

 

[Howardh]

There is. They're 'manufactured' in places like Romania.

The rail industry makes it relatively easy for them, by having many different designs and paper formats.

I believe LU catch more of these tickets than any of the National Rail TOCs!

Doesn't surprise me but I read nothing about it in the news. Is it that commonplace? If so it's something that needs looking at. Is there an industry estimate as to how many get away with it and how much revenue it costs? Clearly that's virtually impossible (!!) but are there any realistic figures?

And, if it's so large, why can't non-copyable (as best you can) tickets be made. Cost? Will?? Might be more income in producing fake BR tickets than £10 notes?!!

 

[theageofthetra]

There was a prosecution earlier this year of an Eastern European gang selling fake paper travel cards in Kent. Don't forget also the SWT ticket staff prosecuted this year for some Oyster scam at Richmond (& is why Oyster facilities are no longer available from SWT there)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Doesn't surprise me but I read nothing about it in the news. Is it that commonplace?

It would not be appropriate to release details of forgery to the media, would it? And even less appropriate, would be to publicise what measures are in place to detect, prevent and prosecute forgery.

If you do become aware of any dealings in forged tickets, please contact the British Transport Police promptly, on 0800 405040 or SMS to 61016.

 

[Starmill]

It's probably not considered to be a problem. Even if there are a lot of fake tickets, against the number of passengers who travel without tickets it's probably tiny - and they would be much, much easier to do something about.

 

[Howardh]

It would not be appropriate to release details of forgery to the media, would it? And even less appropriate, would be to publicise what measures are in place to detect, prevent and prosecute forgery.

If you do become aware of any dealings in forged tickets, please contact the British Transport Police promptly, on 0800 405040 or SMS to 61016.

But it would be to say how many were being caught and their punishments in order to deter others?

 

[syorksdeano]

It's probably not considered to be a problem. Even if there are a lot of fake tickets, against the number of passengers who travel without tickets it's probably tiny - and they would be much, much easier to do something about.

Not sure its not a problem. This article from 2009 seems to say it is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tickets-ordered-pay-12-000-skipped-fares.html

IT consultant Jonathan Moore, 27, saved a total of £12,472 by using his computer skills to produce phoney tickets for rail trips from East Sussex to London.

He was caught when a ticket inspector on a train to Brighton noticed subtle differences in the colour and material of Moore’s ticket.

A further 11 forged tickets dating back to 2006 were discovered...

 

[Howardh]

Notice that revenue guards at stations just take a cursory glance at the ticket (it could be out of date or a fake - they don't look) and also guards on trains, sometimes never look at it, or take it, scribble on it and give it back, makes me wonder if they can tell one made up in someone's study from the real thing?

Wondering if the only way to spot a fake is like a football ticket when two people turn up on for the same reserved seat?!!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

There is. They're 'manufactured' in places like Romania.

And also in deepest Norfolk. A gang from Fakenham had been fakin' 'em, despite the town having had no active station

 

[broadgage]

I doubt that forging a single or return ticket is worth while, and a forged single ticket with a seat reservation would be foolhardy due to the chance of real ticket holder and the holder of the false one both turning up.

Season tickets and travelcards are more likely targets as they are sold in large numbers and often worth a lot.

I have been offered dodgy tickets at least twice, and yes I did report it to the police.

 

[Jonny]

I seem to recall reading that some tickets "worked the barriers" - now that is a technical challenge, but not too hard for the determined forger with the right skills. One case is mentioned here http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...d_for_part_in___1_million_train_ticket_fraud/ and has its own forum thread here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100605

 

[Clip]

Notice that revenue guards at stations just take a cursory glance at the ticket (it could be out of date or a fake - they don't look) and also guards on trains, sometimes never look at it, or take it, scribble on it and give it back, makes me wonder if they can tell one made up in someone's study from the real thing?

Wondering if the only way to spot a fake is like a football ticket when two people turn up on for the same reserved seat?!!

One of the ways an amatuer gets caught is that when they use Photoshop to alter the date they seem to forget about the background and it looks a mess

 

[theageofthetra]

The control of blank ticket stock must be where the more sophisticated frauds start. Presumably they are delivered to stations/depots by a security firm and only accessed by senior staff until fitted in a TVM or other ticket printing machine?

 

[Tibbs]

Notice that revenue guards at stations just take a cursory glance at the ticket (it could be out of date or a fake - they don't look) and also guards on trains, sometimes never look at it, or take it, scribble on it and give it back, makes me wonder if they can tell one made up in someone's study from the real thing?

Wondering if the only way to spot a fake is like a football ticket when two people turn up on for the same reserved seat?!!

I think you'd be surprised at how much an experienced person can take in at a glance. It took me a while but at work I can spot errors and anomalies very quickly now, fast enough to get people to wonder how I do it.

It's skill worth learning, but you can sort of relax your eyes and let your brain do the work and the stuff that's wrong just pops out at you. When a guard looks at thousands of tickets every week, I'd be surprised if the 'odd' tickets don't jump right out at him.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of the ways an amatuer gets caught is that when they use Photoshop to alter the date they seem to forget about the background and it looks a mess

I bet they're the same people who inflate their biceps in photos and forget to straighten the background after!

 

[trentside]

The control of blank ticket stock must be where the more sophisticated frauds start. Presumably they are delivered to stations/depots by a security firm and only accessed by senior staff until fitted in a TVM or other ticket printing machine?

Where I worked, ticket stock was delivered by a courier on pallets wrapped in packing material. The delivery was then checked off against the invoice and put into a storeroom located in the ticket office. All retail staff had access to this room to keep the office and machines supplied.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where I worked, ticket stock was delivered by a courier on pallets wrapped in packing material. The delivery was then checked off against the invoice and put into a storeroom located in the ticket office. All retail staff had access to this room to keep the office and machines supplied.

Only being accessible by 'senior staff' as suggested above is fairly unlikely once you consider the many stations run with one man on shift at a time...

 

[Clip]

Only being accessible by 'senior staff' as suggested above is fairly unlikely once you consider the many stations run with one man on shift at a time...

If he is getting them on a pallet then it must be a major terminal which distributes them through the outlying stations. But as you say at the outlying stations its normally a one man band with tickets just kept in a cupboard which may or may not have a key to it.

 

[1e10]

Notice that revenue guards at stations just take a cursory glance at the ticket (it could be out of date or a fake - they don't look) and also guards on trains, sometimes never look at it, or take it, scribble on it and give it back, makes me wonder if they can tell one made up in someone's study from the real thing?

Wondering if the only way to spot a fake is like a football ticket when two people turn up on for the same reserved seat?!!

A few weeks ago I saw a guy accidentally give a TM something other than his ticket and the TM jokingly replied 'You could probably give me a post-it note and I'd OK it.'

If he is getting them on a pallet then it must be a major terminal which distributes them through the outlying stations. But as you say at the outlying stations its normally a one man band with tickets just kept in a cupboard which may or may not have a key to it.

With all ticket sales being electronic (sold either via a self-service ticket machine or via a ticket desk with the cashier using some sort of computer) it can't be hard to cross reference how many tickets have been sold and how many tickets have been used.

I know passengers are often issued multiple ticket cards for a single journey but a computerised system will be able to take this into account.

 

[Clip]

With all ticket sales being electronic (sold either via a self-service ticket machine or via a ticket desk with the cashier using some sort of computer) it can't be hard to cross reference how many tickets have been sold and how many tickets have been used.

I know passengers are often issued multiple ticket cards for a single journey but a computerised system will be able to take this into account.

It can only know how many are issued. It wont take into account how many get jammed, torn, left to one side because a box may be too much to fit in one machine(including TVM hoppers) so the rest gets left on the side, maybe knocked off.

Its not really something for the 2 TOCs Ive managed in, that gets so closely guarded to be honest. Sounds very lax but it would only really get noticed if you were ordering way above your normal order.

Im not going to sit there and count how many go in and then out. They get a stock every month and thats about right really.

 

[thenorthern]

I would think most fake tickets are season passes where someone has modified the date on them so that they appear valid when they aren't. I have seen a couple of those.

 

[Starmill]

Blank ticket stock is often left hanging around in to of TVMs, or by STM at Stockport.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think you'd be surprised at how much an experienced person can take in at a glance. It took me a while but at work I can spot errors and anomalies very quickly now, fast enough to get people to wonder how I do it.

You're right - after a few years working in banking, I could spot counterfeit notes, fake plastic cards and counterfeit cheques easily. But training other people to spot them is not easy - it's like a sixth sense you develop.

I guess a bit like on the railway, it is sometimes the mannerisms of the person presenting the item that causes doubt as well.

 

[Hartington]

Before the intoduction of electronic ticketing the airline industry suffered from fraudulenty manufactured tickets, stolen tickets, fraudulently issued real tickets to name but a few forms of fraud. Where there's paper there's fraud and I don't see the railway as any less likely to see fraud. Since I retired I'm not sure what the current status is with electronic tickets; I suspect much of the fraud has transferred to credit cards.

What may be different is the attitude of airlines. This varied from head in the sand to airlines with specialised fraud departments. IATA tried to keep a lid on things and tried to persuade the head in sand members to take a more proactive stance.

So here's a question. Who, in the railway industry, is responsible for spotting (and stopping) fraud. ATOC? The TOCs? The BTP will obviously get involved at some point but in the airline environment the police support the airlines rather than initiate investigations (well, generally).

 

[crehld]

Once I collected a ticket from a TVM in Portsmouth and Southsea. It also decided to give me 30 blank tickets. So I decided to hand them into the ticket office, to which the reply was "what do I want those for"?

Interestingly I was in Switzerland a couple of months ago and their blueish ticket stock seemed to have a number of security festures, including a small shiney metalic silver line (as on bank notes, but in the shape of a bus, boat and train) up the side and when you angled it into the light you could see a watermark-like image (again train, bus, boat) on the lamination of the ticket paper.

I guess such countermeasures are too expensive to implement here!

 

[Sleepy]

If you think about it a fake season would be quite easy to use to a London terminal as all you need is a short hop season to work the barriers ! In DOO land most seasons probably only get seen by a human a handful of times a year ? (and any sensible fiddler would just accept a few penalty fares instead of risking showing it) Going off topic I thought PF amount was going to be doubled a while ago ? My TOC seems to have a policy of issuing as few PF as possible so it looks great for the dft ticket less travel figures.

 

[DelayRepay]

If you think about it a fake season would be quite easy to use to a London terminal as all you need is a short hop season to work the barriers ! In DOO land most seasons probably only get seen by a human a handful of times a year ? (and any sensible fiddler would just accept a few penalty fares instead of risking showing it) Going off topic I thought PF amount was going to be doubled a while ago ? My TOC seems to have a policy of issuing as few PF as possible so it looks great for the dft ticket less travel figures.

I doubt it would be a few PFs. If you're caught with a fake ticket it should be the BTP. If you claim to have lost your ticket then you might be lucky and get a PF the first time, but not the second or third... Also remember that all season tickets are on a database, so if an RPI does take your details it's quite easy to check later whether the season ticket existed.

It is a difficult one to solve because the railway wouldn't have any way of knowing how rife the problem is, therefore it's hard to justify spending an awful lot of money addressing the problem.

 

[Mojo]

If you think about it a fake season would be quite easy to use to a London terminal as all you need is a short hop season to work the barriers

No need to even bother with buying a short-hop season ticket. Plenty of phoney Travelcards (90% of which are on orange stock) work the gates just fine.

 

[Scotrail84]

Strathclyde zone cards are a bit of an issue for Scotrail. Anyone with a scanner can reproduce them and they can be tricky to spot even to the trained eye. There was one case about 6 years ago, a spate of fake rail warrants were doing the rounds. Almost impossible to spot. I cant remember what the difference was between real and fake.

 

[Sleepy]

I doubt it would be a few PFs. If you're caught with a fake ticket it should be the BTP. If you claim to have lost your ticket then you might be lucky and get a PF the first time, but not the second or third... Also remember that all season tickets are on a database, so if an RPI does take your details it's quite easy to check later whether the season ticket existed.

It is a difficult one to solve because the railway wouldn't have any way of knowing how rife the problem is, therefore it's hard to justify spending an awful lot of money addressing the problem.

I was thinking more of people just claiming no ticket rather having fake inspected.
On some of our scrote type lines with no barriers RPI staff find a PF is almost the normal ticket for some people - after all if you are paying £20 PF on say 1 journey out of 12 it is still cheaper than buying a daily ticket for short trips !!!